"And...?

I'm not seeing the confusion."

Israel Regardie went on to say that it didnt originate from christian sources. My confusions is Regardie spoke of it opposite in comparison to what you have described. Not to mention since you said

"that it keys you into the Christian archetypes and the block of Christian mass-mind that is associated therewith.
"

Then why associate it with the pentagram? Regardie attributes yod-fire, heh primal-water, shin-spirit, vav-air, and heh final-earth.

To make is easier to understand my confusion, I have a picture in my head of the 'christian' current you associated with it and the pentagram with a question mark? So is it something that is dual in nature? holding 2 currents?
Also I dont know why he would associate Heh primal to water, or Vav to air, since Vav is a 'phallic symbol' associated with 'the wand'.

I'm not seeing the confusion.

"Oh no, Mt. Rainier just erupted and the entire Pacific Northwest will be covered in lava within seconds. Bye-bye."
Smart Ass

"Oh no, Mt. Rainier just erupted and the entire Pacific Northwest will be covered in lava within seconds. Bye-bye."

Dude, I'm in Portland, put a smiley face on the end of that and save me 2-seconds of panic, will ya?...

"When you used it a few times, did you get any xianity juice going on?"

"Ok, lighting litteraly hitting outside of my house, byby for now."

I feel like I should answer your question since you addressed my post, but if you're being struck by lightning, maybe it isn't wise. At least there's no question about IHShVH being a word of power.

A definition: by "Christianity" I understand the doctrine that every man and every woman is irredeemably wicked and that the only hope is to confess your wickedness and accept the sacrifice of Jesus as being for your sake. I think this is a spiritually toxic doctrine, and when I said I didn't feel any Christian backlash (poor choice of words) I meant that I didn't feel that using the word IHShVH connected me with that.

I reviewed my journal for the period when I was practicing the Rose Cross ritual. A variety of Tiphareth-related symbolism came up in my meditations but most of it was not related to Christianity. The exception was the appearance of the word itself in the form of a crucifix, with the Yod above the Vav forming the upright bar, the two Hehs on either side for the horizontal, and Shin in the middle.

Oh no, Mt. Rainier just erupted and the entire Pacific Northwest will be covered in lava within seconds. Bye-bye.

"gmugmble wrote:
I've done a ritual called the Rose Cross that involves vibrating Yeheshua, and did not get any particular Xn backlash.
I didn't say backlash. I said (or used words with which I meant to say) that it keys you into the Christian archetypes and the block of Christian mass-mind that is associated therewith.

That's the main reason that Temple of Thelema, despite its Golden Dawn roots, doesn't use that particular ritual (meaning, that particular form of that ritual)."

When you used it a few times, did you get any xianity juice going on? Does it make a difference what you imagine it as? Because like I have stated above, it is also a very 'fiery' imagine, like a pillar of fire.

"On the other hand, the sign of the cross itself has strong Xn associations for me. I overcome that by focusing on what I think I'm doing when I make it: drawing "energy" from Kether down into Malkuth, then balancing it.
Yes, one has to pick one's crosses carefully I don't think we can do away with it wholly - the symbol of the Cross itself (rather than one particular form) is so powerful and pervasive. (E.g.: Hadit is a nondimensional point. A dot doesn't represent him adequately because it has thickness. There is basically no mathematical representation of Him besides the dot except the intersection point of two lines, i.e., a cross.)

Don't forget, as you dance with this symbolism, that 'cross' is the original form and first-level meaning of Tav. After one has passed the initiation ordeals of the Path of Tav, this acquires a different meaning."

I have those ewww feelings when it comes to the cross. That and other hebrew symbolism kept me from cabalah for a long while. The Q.C. was weird at first, but I have developed my own perspective on it. Most try to make the cross out of the human shape, and also out of the points of vibration. But! at each point is supposed to be infinite space, gathering that energy from the edges of the universe. So applied all four ways. You get the celtic equal armed cross. Which is much better for me to stand in . And the equal armed cross makes more sense with the rest of the LBRP, instead of the christian cross, which focusing the engery to malkuth(or the creative manifested force). I vaguely remember Crowley I think it was in one of his books making a distinction between tav, which I think he said meant serpent. And the other letter I cant think of was the christian cross, the creative whatever.

Ok, lighting litteraly hitting outside of my house, byby for now.

"I've done a ritual called the Rose Cross that involves vibrating Yeheshua, and did not get any particular Xn backlash."

I didn't say backlash. I said (or used words with which I meant to say) that it keys you into the Christian archetypes and the block of Christian mass-mind that is associated therewith.

That's the main reason that Temple of Thelema, despite its Golden Dawn roots, doesn't use that particular ritual (meaning, that particular form of that ritual).

"On the other hand, the sign of the cross itself has strong Xn associations for me. I overcome that by focusing on what I think I'm doing when I make it: drawing "energy" from Kether down into Malkuth, then balancing it."

Yes, one has to pick one's crosses carefully I don't think we can do away with it wholly - the symbol of the Cross itself (rather than one particular form) is so powerful and pervasive. (E.g.: Hadit is a nondimensional point. A dot doesn't represent him adequately because it has thickness. There is basically no mathematical representation of Him besides the dot except the intersection point of two lines, i.e., a cross.)

Don't forget, as you dance with this symbolism, that 'cross' is the original form and first-level meaning of Tav. After one has passed the initiation ordeals of the Path of Tav, this acquires a different meaning.

"I read somewhere, but have not been able to confirm, that the pentagram was a Xn symbol, representing the 5 wounds of Jesus; from Xity it passed into Freemasonry, and from Freemasonry into Wicca."

They don't lay out in a pentagram form. One could, of course, develop Christian symbolism concerning it, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if Heindel had done this quite beautifully.

I read somewhere, but have not been able to confirm, that the pentagram was a Xn symbol, representing the 5 wounds of Jesus; from Xity it passed into Freemasonry, and from Freemasonry into Wicca.

"If you can vibrate that name and have it not key in the entire mass-mind archetypal structure of Christianity, go for it!"

Have you vibrated it before?(Feel free to be the test driver )

"It's not how the name is actually spelled in Hebrew, which is the same as the hero Joshua's name."

Which seems to indicate that -- even though it may have been Xn cabalists who came up with the formula, and even though it is sometimes represented as a "cabalistic spelling of Jesus" -- the IHShVH formula is not particularly Xn at all and that one could use it without being an old aeon reactionary.

"
@Alias55A said
"Did IHShVH have any place in the old kabahlah not relating to Christianity? For some reason I see it as more of a colorfull, pure elemental equilibrium of man, like a colorfull galaxy, then referring to jebus."

No. It's entirely a Medieval Christian Cabalist invention. (It's not how the name is actually spelled in Hebrew, which is the same as the hero Joshua's name.)

Shin had much of the same significance, but not in that combination.

The older, more primal pentagrammaton was Elohim (ALHYM), but not with a Tiphereth significance."

Ok, well said. Nevermind about the damned word i guess lol.

"Did IHShVH have any place in the old kabahlah not relating to Christianity? For some reason I see it as more of a colorfull, pure elemental equilibrium of man, like a colorfull galaxy, then referring to jebus."

No. It's entirely a Medieval Christian Cabalist invention. (It's not how the name is actually spelled in Hebrew, which is the same as the hero Joshua's name.)

Shin had much of the same significance, but not in that combination.

The older, more primal pentagrammaton was Elohim (ALHYM), but not with a Tiphereth significance.

"There are those who teach it for the Middle Pillar in that place.

As for the Qabalistic Cross, I'd have to say yes, in theory, if you identify yourself with Christianity. (Jesus has been, after all, a stand-in generic for the H.G.A. for a couple of thousand years.)"

No, not in a Christian since. I want to say it was Micheal Kraig's Modern Magick I read the two veriations in (IHVH-IHSHVH), that the one with Shin in it, like what Danica said about making the four power come 'alive', in the sinse of an enlightened man, who has reach his quilibrium.

Did IHShVH have any place in the old kabahlah not relating to Christianity? For some reason I see it as more of a colorfull, pure elemental equilibrium of man, like a colorfull galaxy, then referring to jebus.

As for the Qabalistic Cross, I'd have to say yes, in theory, if you identify yourself with Christianity. (Jesus has been, after all, a stand-in generic for the H.G.A. for a couple of thousand years.)

"Exactly as Danica said: It's a different formula and therefore means something different."

So it is also the Attainment of Tipareth, which was my first impression. Could I use it in the Q.C. instead of Aiwas? Would it also work with the M.D for Tipareth?

"Whichever variation is used. How come no one includes Shin in it? Or is YHSVH reserved for other things?"

when you include Shin, that's a different formula - not 'just' a Cross of Elements any more, but it can be said it 'makes' a Circle around it, i.e. - Shin added in the middle of Tetragrammaton creates the Word Jeheshuah (YHShVH); the symbolism can be understund along these lines --> Spirit as the Fifth, which makes the Four (powers of the Sphinx) 'alive' - when the Four are balanced, the Fifth ''appears'' (IRE/to Go)...