Crowley's conception about life after death
-
@kasper81 said
"4) Where in the Book of the Law does it refer to or state that reincarnation is real or a necessary part of Thelema?"
How is that relevant?
Ford Mustangs aren't in the Book of the Law, but that has no bearing on whether they're real or not. As far as "necessary part of Thelema", is someone making that claim?
-
@kasper81 said
"1) when does the reincarnatory, "spirit" enter the zygot in the woman's womb? Is it a few weeks after it's creation? Six months? How do we know this? "
I think there are different levels. At least, there are two distinct points marked, and I reason that these mark two different levels of "investment."
The primary incarnation is at the moment of the first breath, the moment the horoscope comes into being.
But there is a level of incarnation - perhaps "local-spatial proximity lock," to make up a term? - at the start of the second trimester of pregnancy, the time historically called "the quickening." Traditions as diverse as the Tibetan and the European Christian mark this time, and there seems to be a significant shift.
"2) Now I know noone's doing the stats but something confuses me. Let's say there's 7 billion people on earth. This may mean the ones who terminate and whose spirits leave their body must go somewhere and have their next new body allocated to them. What if the next generation of pregnancies fall? Where do these stay for the duration until a zygot is allocated to them? The higher- astral, purgatory- limbo Hilton?"
Earth isn't the only place to incarnate. Incarnation isn't the only level of existence. And there's no race to get back. Some move on - they have grown past the need for human existence. And the opposite is true, too, that in periods when there are large sustained surges of increased population, some of the increased number comes from elemental that have grown to the point of taking shape as microcosm, I.e., being born human.
"3) Who or what is doing this allocation work? "
Nature - the natural course. No big judge and accountant. In most of the levels, the beings themselves (ourselves) make the choice, (Nobody is incarnated because they have to be - it's all by choice and according to capability.)
"4) Where in the Book of the Law does it refer to or state that reincarnation is real or a necessary part of Thelema?"
It doesn't. Neither does it say that the law of gravity or the need to breathe air is part of Thelema.
And I'm not sure any of these things are part of Thelma as such. But Thelma isn't the whole picture - it's just the current "best understanding, best practices" model, a subset of a much larger understanding of things.
-
After thinking about the notion of eternal hell, I wonder if it doesn't contradicts the Law of Thelema : to me, that kind of concept sound pretty much like a "slave mentality" from the old aeon.
Nevertheless, we talked above about suffering states the human can create after his death : do you know how does that happen and in which conditions ?According to Jim's patient answers, I guess those states of mind cannot last forever, but I think it is interesting to know how Crowley conceived that topic
-
@Diogenos said
"Nevertheless, we talked above about suffering states the human can create after his death : do you know how does that happen and in which conditions ? "
Yes. It happens the same way that it happens in life: People create hell for themselves. Among other things, people buy into a reward and punishment mindset, and therefore conceive of their afterlife in hellish terms.
On the inner planes, thoughts aren't abstracted from immediate reality. Thoughts and images are the actual substance of reality, the way that physical matter serves that purpose on the material plane. People literally create this and use it (for example) to answer their own guilt.
-
Is this webpage relevant to you ?
iao131.com/2012/01/17/death-in-thelemaI tried to translate the passages that Crowley wrote, but some of their meanings are pretty obscure for a person using a basic english. For instance, something that would need and explanation :
"For by Death is Man released only from the Gross Body, at the first, and is complete otherwise upon the Astral Plane, as he was in his Life. But this Wholeness suffereth Stress, and its Girders are loosened, the weaker first and after that the stronger."The problem is, this vocabulary is classy and rather poetic ; so then, it is difficult to me really understanding what To Mega Therion wanted to tell us.
-
IAO131 is a naturalist. He's trying to be balanced here, but you'll never find anything that supports any form of human consciousness outside of a living body.
www.amazon.com/Through-Gates-Death-Dion-Fortune/dp/0898042240
Homework... Do it...
-
The book will give you the standard model presented by those who have experienced such things.
-
Then you go try to see if you can experience it for yourself.
-
Then you make up your own mind.
-
-
@Diogenos said
"
@Aion said
"Homework... Do it..."Yep sir !
"I guess you'd have to know me, but that was intended in a voice much less "sir"-y and much more playful/gravelly/whiny/annoying/naggy.
"Homeworrrrrrrrk.... Do iiiiiiiiiiit...."
I mean, you'll do what you like, but I think that book will really fill in some gaps for you. In this environment, it's kind of like you're trying to get somebody (even Crowley) to commit to a "Thelemic answer," when Crowley's whole thing is that he wanted people to experience it for themselves and make up their own mind.
-
"Mr Crowley, I wanna know what you meant" as Ozzy used to sing
I guess you're right, self experience is maybe the most thelemic way to find the truth.
Without telling you my life, I feel ill at ease with the idea of an eternal hell that we could attain by a way or another ; as I say before, it is probably only a fairy tale from the aeon of Osiris. But it is still a pretty annoying notion, and I hope Dion Fortune's book will help me understanding the impermanence of all thing (including afterlife). -
Sorry for double posting, but :
@Jim Eshelman said
" If an Adept did such a thing as you suggest, it would be both highly unusual and of some particular karmic implication unique to that Adept. It could be a horrible mistake - it could be an enormous act of High Magick - there are too many variables. A Major Adept at the very least should have the resources both to recognize the karmic implications instinctively and to know the magical implications; but, I suppose, if the power urge within the Major Adept exceeded the intimacy of his or her connection to the HGA, then anything is possible.
Mostly, the answer is that this isn't a realistic scenario in close to 100% of the cases. Don't worry about what the Russian President might do if he cornered you, since he isn't likely to return your phone call in the first place."
I know I am involving this topic another time, but could you please be more precize ? After a few consultations of Crowley's most important works (mostly from "Magick in theorice and practice") and their commentaries, I came to the following conclusions :
- The judeo-christian Devil doesn't exist : a single and alone entity with an evil unity "would be a god" according to the Great Beast.
- In fact, dealing with demonic entities is possible, but their volonty is to break up the link that connects you with your Holy Guardian Angel. Nevertheless, you won't gain anything in that kind of contract, either those demons ; this is purely and illusion.
- It is also possible to contact greater evil entities such as Belial, Lucifer, Leviathan and Satan ; but it requires a pretty good knowledge of magick, especially concerning Briah and its particularities.
Did you ever hear of cases like the one I mentionned before ? What would happen if a magician breaks his link with his Holy Guarding angel, concretly ?
-
All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Not trying to be a wise guy, but in general the very question of what happens after death, disturbs me, since the great work to me is to achive union with God, which is
life....
The most simple question: what is life? Has reason to hesitate, stumble and fall all over; failing. One could therefore argue; shouldn't one know life before asking about death? Failure to do so, is like trying to put the cart before the horse, isn't it? I myself don't have a clue to what will happen to me after death, but I have complete trust in what is to come will be as natural as my own birth...
It's easy to take life and all that which it contains for granted, but in my own case; that which I once thought I knew... I knew not at all... Perhaps other people and my own previous fear for death, is due to not having really lived at all?
I hope that I will some day come to know life...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
-
"It's easy to take life and all that which it contains for granted, but in my own case; that which I once thought I knew... I knew not at all... Perhaps other people and my own previous fear for death, is due to not having really lived at all?
I hope that I will some day come to know life...
"Our fear of death comes from the fact that we do not know what occurs. We physically see the absense of life and many hope that there is some form of metaphysical existence after the heart has stopped beating and the brain has ceased activity.
Those who practice spiritual exercises seem to conclude that certain results are metaphysical in nature and conclude that there is a level of existence which transcends the physical level of existence.
People who fear death often limit themselves in life because every fear stems from the thought that something could harm you so much that you will die. Most people associate Freud with sex, he was actually also interested in his theory of 'thanatos' or the death drive- the thing which represses people and hinders them from growing.
Whilst an obsession of death can lead to an unhealthy life style, an ignorance of death can lead to a very short life.....there has to be balance.
I think Crowley said that one of the most important reasons for experiencing the body of light is to gain knowledge that we are not just physical bodies, to understand that there is a level of existence which is metaphysical- after one has experienced this and not just read about it, there is no need to fear death.....which means one can then live- so I would disagree, death has to be explored first before life can flower.
(Don't hold me to the statement that Crowley said that, someone did.....I am only 93% sure it was him though".)
93, 93/93.
-
@Diogenos said
"1) The judeo-christian Devil doesn't exist : a single and alone entity with an evil unity "would be a god" according to the Great Beast. "
IMVHO it certainly doesn't exist in the way, or with the role, that they conceive (the way you describe). Nonetheless, Satan, Lucifer, etc. appear to exist as beings of vast, archangelic status in the same way that Raphael etc. exist. (My own read is that the Four Great Princes are, in fact, the four great archangels of a time past - Isis Aeon? - and their seeming enmity to humanity is because our particular mode of consciousness no longer aligns with their natures.)
"2) In fact, dealing with demonic entities is possible, but their volonty is to break up the link that connects you with your Holy Guardian Angel."
I'm certain that there are demonic entities - Yetziratic spirits - who do exactly this sort of thing, and that these are the majority of what people contact. This is not incompatible, though, with the existence of the authentic beings they mimic. In fact there are hundreds of spirits already catalogued that that specifically take the form and express the nature of, of Lucifer, Satan, Belial, and Leviathan and their lieutenants (see the Abramelin work). One would need to be awake in Briah to perceive anything higher.
As for their breaking the link with the HGA - They don't do that, you do. So don't. Just don't. You'll be fine
(It's the same as, "The girl made me fuck her. She's the reason my wife left." Except that's not really how it happened, right? 
)"3) It is also possible to contact greater evil entities such as Belial, Lucifer, Leviathan and Satan ; but it requires a pretty good knowledge of magick, especially concerning Briah and its particularities. "
Yes. Sorry, didn't read this far before starting to answer, not nagging. As you can see, I agree.
"Did you ever hear of cases like the one I mentionned before ? What would happen if a magician breaks his link with his Holy Guarding angel, concretly ?"
Not sure what "concretely" means here. You mean "finally, absolutely, irrevocably"? Doesn't happen. Can't happen. It's not in the Angel's nature. You may have to start all over again to reforge the conscious relationship. (Read Crowley's commentary on Liber LXV, especially Chapter 4, for insight.)
-
Well, as you certainly understood it before, my fear is the concept of "soul selling" like Goethe described in Faust. I guess after reading a little and chatting with you that it cannot happen, but one point still interests me : You've been coy about the (very unusual case, I know that) where a magician would offer himself totally to one of the Four Princes of evil. Maybe is it irresolvable without personnal experience ? You talked about karmic consequences, it seems to be the most relevant hypothesis in my opinion.
To get back to another topic, we talked a few days ago about impermanence : since Crowley was a great fan of Lao Tze and after reading Liber CLVII, I suppose it does concerns everything, even life and death... But that's maybe an hurried guessing
Still thanks for your references, I'll google Liber LXV as soon as possible. -
@Diogenos said
"Still thanks for your references, I'll google Liber LXV as soon as possible."
Doesn't anybody just buy books anymore? It seems to me that the first step in becoming seriously involved in the work is to build a library. This is one of the worst effects the internet has had on the Great Work IMHO.
There is magick in physical books that you just can't find in a digital print out. (That's certainly what I sold my soul for
Damn the costs, damn anything else, but put every resource into acquiring all of the books.)But, in cany case, you can go to www.thelema.org/publication and download all of the issues of ITC for free, including the publication of Crowley's full commentary on Liber LXV.
-
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Doesn't anybody just buy books anymore? It seems to me that the first step in becoming seriously involved in the work is to build a library. This is one of the worst effects the internet has had on the Great Work IMHO.
There is magick in physical books that you just can't find in a digital print out. (That's certainly what I sold my soul for
Damn the costs, damn anything else, but put every resource into acquiring all of the books.)"We are in wholehearted agreement here! I love my little library. Finding and collecting the rare stuff is just so much fun. As far as reading them goes, I never get as much out of reading an ebook compared to the real thing. I suppose certain things can't be obtained otherwise (old Latin manuscripts and the like) for most people, but I always get a physical copy whenever possible. Even when I can't, I usually print them out anyway.
-
It is very scientific to recognize that atomically and sub-atomically, things do not die. What dies seems to be the individual. The tree dies, but the soil is anew. The fruit dies, but the seed is fed. The water has vanished, but the clouds have risen. The clouds have darkened, then they have fallen, and the lake is refreshed.
I see nothing in nature that disagrees with reincarnation.
-
"But we can infer a lot by acknowledging that he claimed to be the reincarnation of Eliphas Levi, and several other figures before that. That would imply that he expected to be reincarnated again."
I am certain Kenneth Grant mentions that Crowley believed he would be reincarnated as a woman upon his death, I forget which of his books he mentions this in, and I don't believe he gave a source for this claim. (I don't trust a lot of what Grant writes). I also believe it was mentioned he would be of Chinese descent, but I could be adding that bit on.
Of course the same man also stated that past life memories are false memories created by the imagination- and whilst may serve some purpose, should not be taken as truth. My point is, Crowley appears to change his mind on things throughout his life, I would say he didn't truly know what to believe about the afterlife!
In his letter in magick without tears, written shortly before his death,
[About reincarnation]
"Do I believe in it?
Yes.Why?
(1) Because I remember a dozen or so of my previous lives on earth. (See Magick, Chapter VI.)
(2) Because no other theory satisfies my feeling for "justesse," for equilibrium, for Newton's Third Law of Motion.
(3) Because every religion asserts, or at least implies, it in some sense of other."
"What is it that reincarnates? We have had this before, in another connection; it is the Supernal Triad of Jechidah, Chiah and Neschamah that clothes the original Hadit or Point-of-View, with as much of the Ruach as the Human Consciousness, Tiphareth, has been able during a given life to attach to itself by dint of persistent Aspiration. If there is not enough Ruach to ensure an adequate quota of Memories, one could never become conscious of the continuity between one life and the next."
I feel it is also important to point out, that Crowley's personal beliefs on life after death have absolutely nothing to do with Thelema, and don't necessarily dictate the 'official' opinion of Thelemites.