Still trying to decide where this will lead me
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I'm feeling a little lost, and I'm hoping you can clear up some of my (mis)conceptions about Thelema and what can be done with it.
Thelema is something I'm still interested in months after my initial post. I'm continuously finding my way back to things discussing the concept of a great work or a true will, if not the texts themselves. And I still think that what I read is valuable, but not something I'm living or know how to live - or if I should. It's only half because I've had so much else on my plate.
I often read through the threads here to hearten myself, and while some of it resonates some of it is strange and something in me is saying that I shouldn't take it to heart. I read a thread here discussing the concept of loss and death, for example, and was surprised to see that it was talked about as something "advanced" to not be afraid of when I’m most certainly not advanced and yet not afraid of death. Maybe we're thinking of different things.
I'm drawn to developing myself, but I see talk of enlightenment, growing beyond the life I know, and losing attachment to it, and that does make me afraid. Not because I wouldn't care about the latest gadgets and fads so much as not caring about what's going on around me and who I'm interacting with. That I'd only love my rituals, my magick, and my private studies, existing among people but not existing with them. An exaggeration, maybe, but hopefully you see where I'm going with this. I have seen people say they pretty much stopped caring about everything else.
When I look at the concept of being an accomplished magician, Thelemite, or what-have-you and then look back at people around me I feel like I'd be leaving where the real magic is and making myself poorer for it. Intuitively, I want to walk towards everything alive and feel empowered and joyous for it, not more material, less spiritual, or less a part of everyone and everything around me. Mess and all. To date nothing has made me feel or taught me as much as the people I've met and the experiences I've had in private away from the occult where things are simply spiritual.
I feel like I can do so much more good for others in the thick of it than living beyond it, too. And if I'm not happy and you're not happy when I'm way out there, why go?
I'd like to be involved in some kind of serious study because I feel as though I'm not doing myself right on a spiritual level right now because I'm unfocused, but I'm afraid of where these systems and these people are going to lead me as far as my own path goes. If it's not right, then why do I keep coming back? If it's right then why do I feel like I'm standing at the edge of a precipice every time I come near?
I don't want to ruminate on this endlessly (I've been known to), so I'm sorry if I’m not quite clear. I can answer more if asked.
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Difficult, but I'll try.
@TDD said
"I read a thread here discussing the concept of loss and death, for example, and was surprised to see that it was talked about as something "advanced" to not be afraid of when I’m most certainly not advanced and yet not afraid of death. Maybe we're thinking of different things."
Maybe. What I'd like to point out about this is that's common enough for people to be pretty sure that they're not afraid of death, yet when faced with it they find out they are. (I'm talking from experience.) This is similar to people who first try out meditation and think they have a pretty calm and ordered mind, but if they persist they find out that they had just not peeled enough layers yet; when they do, they discover that noisy, chaotic mind they were expected to have, just like everyone else has at first.
Secondly, even if you are genuinely and wholly unafraid of death (leaving aside the fact that word can mean so many things), that being an "advanced" aspect doesn't mean every aspect of you is as advanced. Everybody has their own tendencies, things they are naturally better at than others, things they're underdeveloped at compared to others. You get the idea.
"I'm drawn to developing myself, but I see talk of enlightenment, growing beyond the life I know, and losing attachment to it, and that does make me afraid. Not because I wouldn't care about the latest gadgets and fads so much as not caring about what's going on around me and who I'm interacting with. That I'd only love my rituals, my magick, and my private studies, existing among people but not existing with them. An exaggeration, maybe, but hopefully you see where I'm going with this. I have seen people say they pretty much stopped caring about everything else."
It's good that makes you afraid! (Funny how death doesn't, eh?) That means you have some conception of the magnitude of the task that lies ahead. But just like in ordinary life, it's not much good to entertain the thoughts of fear over and over. When you want something, you go get it.
About your specific concerns, the keyword here seems to be "care". What does it mean to care about something? It can and it will mean different things as you go along. But what you describe doesn't seem right at all. I'm sure that can happen to some people, but not as a result of "enlightenment" and "growing beyond the known life," rather as a result of some imbalance where there's too much introspection and magick &c are used as a form of escape from life. No, that's not what you're going for. (Periods of introspection are warranted, but that's rather obvious.)
Some form of what you describe can take place (permanently or not), but that's quite ahead in the way. That is, more advanced than conquering the fear of physical death. The key point here is that at some point (who can tell when?) everyone is gonna have to not prefer one thing over any other. (Not as a perpetual state in their human personality, mind you.)
"When I look at the concept of being an accomplished magician, Thelemite, or what-have-you and then look back at people around me I feel like I'd be leaving where the real magic is and making myself poorer for it."
Like I said, nope, you wouldn't wanna do that.
"I feel like I can do so much more good for others in the thick of it than living beyond it, too. And if I'm not happy and you're not happy when I'm way out there, why go?"
Do you know what it means to live beyond it? Rather, you may have formed an idea of it which you seem to fear. Anything you imagine about what lies ahead in the G.'.W.'. is generally wrong. The only way to know is to get there.
"If it's right then why do I feel like I'm standing at the edge of a precipice every time I come near?"
Maybe you are. There are difficult transitions, painful things. But you don't get beyond them by becoming an insensible robot. Rather, you do it by increasing your capacity to feel without resistence. Need for control has to be left at the door. Yes, it's going to hurt and be uncomfortable. That's part of what makes it worthy. (And as you can tell, it's not for everyone at their present stage.)
I may be way off base here, but these are my humble thoughts. Feel free to clarify anything.
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Well, I was never interested in magic. I was interested in mysticism. It just happens to be the same reality, and I found that I eventually needed the rituals to keep all my own stuff together.
Personally, I see you standing on the Threshold of the Mysteries, asking all the usual questions, and that's normal.
The thing is, the unpredictable element isn't the stuff, it's you.
You'll never arrive at enough knowledge where it won't require daring.
But it has to be up to you because there is definitely danger and trial.
That's why there's no persuasion coming your way.
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Patrick and Meme already touched on most of the points that stood out for me. The two things I'd add are:
First, your header is very telling. If you are actually trying to decide (rational consideration of alternatives in order to come to a resolution or choice) where this will lead you (the ultimate goal), you might be putting not only the cart before the horse, but the entire universe as well. "The Path" is a very useful metaphor for the Great Work as long as we recognize that it is in no way a well marked 4-lane highway with an express lane in the middle and signs at regular intervals to remind you of your destination. You will likely not know what your destination is until you've been there for quite awhile and suddenly realize "Oh, this is where I was headed." The path to get there will often times disappear completely and you'll have to wander the desert alone and lost for months or years until you happen upon another, barely noticeable animal trail in the scrub that gets you back on solid footing. The Sun, Dawning in the East, will illuminate some parts of it that have been well-trod by previous adventurers but there are sections that just bloody well don't exist.
The only real promise we have that there is a goal at all is that some have gone before and written about the journey. It is up to us whether and how much we trust their accounts and how much use they can be for our own journey. Beyond that, there is or is not an inner call that must or must not be followed, as each sees fit.Second, an oft forgotten truth of the universe is that we are only able to influence it, for better or worse, by virtue of the contacts we have with it. Those who practice magick as an escape from reality, IMHO, are doing it wrong. If your ultimate goal is the continued evolution of humanity (as I believe it should be), then that goal requires you to evolve yourself, to evolve those around you, and to work to leave the world in a better state than you found it. This can only be done if you continue to engage the world immediately around you. Withdrawing into books or practices might be an important stage of the Work but, as with all stages, it should be practiced to discover its worth and then that worth should be reintegrated towards the purpose of projecting it back into the world at large. Anything else mistakes the universal nature of the life force and tends towards the restrictive nature of black magick.
@TDD said
"I'd like to be involved in some kind of serious study because I feel as though I'm not doing myself right on a spiritual level right now because I'm unfocused, but I'm afraid of where these systems and these people are going to lead me as far as my own path goes."
The real question you have to ask yourself is: Are you the sort of person who will be lead down a path without your consent or are you the sort of person who can lead yourself through the swamp to discover the pearl?
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"I'm drawn to developing myself, but I see talk of enlightenment, growing beyond the life I know, and losing attachment to it, and that does make me afraid."
"Enlightenment" doesn't make you withdrawn from the world just more balanced. It removes a list of possibilities and fixates on the only course that is right for you.
My own "Great Work" has always been unidirectional... given enough time. There are tons of bad periods but those would have still existed and worse if no personal attainment had been pursued at all.
I personally continue to be better off over time, but I also have gone through enough ordeals to know that this stuff isn't a choice for me. I either dwell in my current structure and stall growth or push forward creating a better one.
If you have interest it should develop at it's correct rate. Time tells all.
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Sorry for the late response. I thought I'd take some time to collect my thoughts, because I wasn't sure what to say at first. I'm still not, but I appreciate the time everyone took to respond and thought it would be polite to at least update. Either way, I've decided to do a little more reading and see what opens up.
@Patrick Ossoski said
"Maybe. What I'd like to point out about this is that's common enough for people to be pretty sure that they're not afraid of death, yet when faced with it they find out they are. (I'm talking from experience.) This is similar to people who first try out meditation and think they have a pretty calm and ordered mind, but if they persist they find out that they had just not peeled enough layers yet; when they do, they discover that noisy, chaotic mind they were expected to have, just like everyone else has at first.
Secondly, even if you are genuinely and wholly unafraid of death (leaving aside the fact that word can mean so many things), that being an "advanced" aspect doesn't mean every aspect of you is as advanced. Everybody has their own tendencies, things they are naturally better at than others, things they're underdeveloped at compared to others. You get the idea."
I've never been in a near-death situation, but I see many people who talk about being afraid of the day they die or afraid of growing old.I'm sure I'd react in some way if I were on my deathbed or staring down the barrel of a gun, though. I understand it logically but not emotionally from where I'm standing.
Still, I don't know how to use advice or markers that have been designed for people who are dissimilar in their approaches and preferences... especially because I can't just skip ahead entirely. I can forge my own way, but I'm not sure if I'm building problems or progress for myself. I can effectively teach myself something like a new language, which I don't think is the same.
@Sardonyx said
"Well, I was never interested in magic. I was interested in mysticism. It just happens to be the same reality, and I found that I eventually needed the rituals to keep all my own stuff together.
Personally, I see you standing on the Threshold of the Mysteries, asking all the usual questions, and that's normal.
The thing is, the unpredictable element isn't the stuff, it's you.
You'll never arrive at enough knowledge where it won't require daring.
But it has to be up to you because there is definitely danger and trial.
That's why there's no persuasion coming your way."
I can't even explain how true this is.
It's not the thought of trials that makes me uncomfortable, it's the danger. And it's not necessarily conventional ideas of danger, it's the idea of what might come from that danger: irreversible damage, harm to the ones I love, loss of self.
I knew someone who hurt himself quite badly with his work, and maybe that's where part of my fear comes from. The rest of it... couldn't tell you if I wanted to.
Not necessarily looking for persuasion, but outside experiences and opinions. Sometimes I start to think in circles.
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"The real question you have to ask yourself is: Are you the sort of person who will be lead down a path without your consent or are you the sort of person who can lead yourself through the swamp to discover the pearl?"
I'm the kind of person who might tear off into the swamp for very little reason and get eaten by a carnivorous plant because I was too curious not to poke it with a stick.
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@TDD said
"Still, I don't know how to use advice or markers that have been designed for people who are dissimilar in their approaches and preferences..."
By simply using them, and noting what happens to you.
"I can forge my own way, but I'm not sure if I'm building problems or progress for myself."
That's one of the reasons it's a good idea to have a teacher by your side. Still... problems are ultimately tools for progress (eventually). It's up to you to take risks or not.
"I can effectively teach myself something like a new language, which I don't think is the same."
It might be for the technical aspects of the Work. But mostly you're right.
"It's not the thought of trials that makes me uncomfortable, it's the danger."
What's a trial without any danger?
"And it's not necessarily conventional ideas of danger, it's the idea of what might come from that danger: irreversible damage, harm to the ones I love, loss of self."
I was thinking of how to give a smart response to this, but I realized now, especially since persuasion is not the idea here: Yeah, there is pretty ugly stuff that can happen. Things can go wrong. Or worse, they can go right, and what you fear now can come true exactly because that's the precise lesson you may need to learn.
You have to be open to stuff. It's a tricky Universe. If worldly considerations are greater than your aspiration, you may remain in circles, as you stated. And the only good circle is the one with a dot in the middle.
"I'm the kind of person who might tear off into the swamp for very little reason and get eaten by a carnivorous plant because I was too curious not to poke it with a stick."
"Do it."
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@TDD said
"I'm the kind of person who might tear off into the swamp for very little reason and get eaten by a carnivorous plant because I was too curious not to poke it with a stick."
In that case, the important thing is to remember: There is no plant. There is no stick.
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"
@TDD said
""I can effectively teach myself something like a new language, which I don't think is the same."
It might be for the technical aspects of the Work. But mostly you're right."
"The above example and answer also holds the key to exactly why the answer/reply is accurate. You think you can effectively teach yourself a new [to you] language, but if you never hear anyone speak that language directly, you may be mispronouncing the words. At best, you've learned to read the language.