Thelema and Compassion
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I find it fascinating that some people feel better calling it "ruthless," that there is something more inherently Thelemic about it with that adjective."
I can see your point, Jim, but the catchy name didn't swing it for me. The main selling point was that Trungpa defined his terms. He makes it very clear that he is not talking about compassion as ordinarily understood by most people. Once those core definitions are in place, and the reasons behind them, things make much more sense.
One area where I think the ruthless prefix might work for some people is in counteracting the view that compassion is in some ways linked with sentimentalism. Coming from that angle makes it kind of hard to square it with the tone of AL II:22. I struggled with that one myself for a while.
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@Her said
"One area where I think the ruthless prefix might work for some people is in counteracting the view that compassion is in some ways linked with sentimentalism."
I see your point (and I especially like your point about definition). I think it better, though, to make sure people know what the word really means.
To me, the comparison like calling an automobile a "mobile automobile." Just because some cars currently don't run, and others will never run again, doesn't mean we need to call most cars "mobile." Or, even though there are "vegetarian burgers," we really don't want to start referring to the default as "meat hamburgers" (except, perhaps, in highly specialized and narrow situations like a vegans' convention).
My only active dislike of the adjective is that it would soon lose connection to its original usage (as I suspect you feel "compassion" has), and then it would give the impression that you were talking about "some special kind of compassion, not the ordinary kind." But you aren't. You're talking about what it has always meant in Buddhism.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I think it better, though, to make sure people know what the word really means.
"I couldn't agree more.
But I think there are always going to be difficulties when common, everyday words with well established 'popular' meanings are used in a different context for another purpose. I mean how many times have you had to patiently explain what "Will" and "Love" mean within the context of Thelema?
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You'll have to put up with the dramatic monologues.
"Ruthless Compassion" - Check. Got it.
But that's not the vice of a king. That's no vice here. So, the "compassion" of the verse must be referring to that weaker sort.
See, in my view, the book is written to be taken more than one way.
Regarding the bit about trying to limit oneself to doing one's Will before one even knows what that is... I think that's absolutely valid. The questions of the book are meant to be lived.
I was trying to make the point that there will always be criticism, but our vices are ultimately in Hadit's service. The king has a story to live and learn from. We live a little, and go back to the text, live a little, and go back to the text. And you find yourself living a conversation with it, questioning and receiving answers in daily experience. That too is the living out of one's Will.
I'm supposed to learn from what I cannot help but give. There's a whole love story going on there.
Babalon.
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I think it's a "vice" not because it's one kind of compassion or another etc., but for a more exacting reason: Compassion is one of those spaces where one "makes a difference between" one thing or another. Anything like that is flawed eventually.
But the Book acknowledges that of all vices, this is the distinctive one of adepts ("kings"). OTOH it is not given as characteristic of Masters, for whom "making no difference" etc. is a defining trait.
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@Sardonyx said
"Hmh. With that understanding, even "ruthless compassion" would be a vice."
Oh, absolutely.
None of this makes sense as a Thelemic ethic until you add in 2:52, where Hadit says, "veil not your vices in virtuous words: these vices are my service; ye do well, & I will reward you here and hereafter."
I think there has been some attempt here to veil the vice of compassion in "virtuous words" - words that people think are "more Thelemic," etc. What serves Hadit are our unapologetic vices.
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Oh, Lord, it's hard to be humble
When you're Hadit in every way
I can't wait to look in the mirror
'Cause I get better lookin' each dayTo know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man
Oh, Lord, it's hard to be humble
But I'm doin' the best that I can -
@Jim Eshelman said
"I think it's a "vice" not because it's one kind of compassion or another etc., but for a more exacting reason: Compassion is one of those spaces where one "makes a difference between" one thing or another. Anything like that is flawed eventually."
I'm trying to reconcile this view, including your comment about Adepts and Masters, with the following quote by Chogyam Trungpa:
@Chogyam Trungpa said
"When we talk about compassion, we talk in terms of being kind. But compassion is not so much being kind; it is being creative to wake a person up."
There may be no connection, but I was still intrigued by the idea that attempting to "wake a person up" could possibly be in some way flawed.
Speculation alert! Could this mean that an Adept's attempts at trying to awaken another person are, in a certain sense, futile. While the Master sees the futility in the exercise, knowing that you can't wake someone up unless they want to be woken up in the first place?
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I wonder a lot about the motivation of masters to continue the work of enlightening humanity. If it's all perfect as it is, then why work to enlighten? Whether kind or ruthless, it seems like compassion.
Call it "creativity," it still has a goal to create change, doesn't it? Or what?
If I look past Binah to Chokmah, it just seems to say, well, call it evil if you want, some things exist that are just naturally aggressive/projective like that, regardless of result. They just... do. They enlighten.
"Creative" in that sense? Maybe?
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@Her said
"
@Chogyam Trungpa said
"When we talk about compassion, we talk in terms of being kind. But compassion is not so much being kind; it is being creative to wake a person up."There may be no connection, but I was still intrigued by the idea that attempting to "wake a person up" could possibly be in some way flawed. "
Though I don't think it's a "big sin," it does rest on a judgment that there is something wrong with the person being asleep.
"Speculation alert! Could this mean that an Adept's attempts at trying to awaken another person are, in a certain sense, futile. While the Master sees the futility in the exercise, knowing that you can't wake someone up unless they want to be woken up in the first place?"
This is a main reason that both initiation and healing are only offered in response to someone actively seeking it, requesting it. - PS, it doesn't take a Master to see the last point, any Neophyte should be well equipped on this matter.
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@Sardonyx said
"I wonder a lot about the motivation of masters to continue the work of enlightening humanity. If it's all perfect as it is, then why work to enlighten? Whether kind or ruthless, it seems like compassion.
Call it "creativity," it still has a goal to create change, doesn't it? Or what?
"I dont think Masters have "goals", and certainly not to "create" or "change" anything.
Compassion at this level probably just consist of doing ones will according to ones nature.
The thing though, probably, is the precision of alignement is so great that even 0.0000001% compation have like billions times more effect than the Neophyte's 100% one. And this on an automatic level.
Just speculations
And of course everything is perfect. Effects are just a side effect. Just like the fish swims and the bird flies, and we say they do so seeing them doing so. Though, do they really do so? Ask them and see the answer. I guess there are masters at "doing" so.
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@Hermes said
"I dont think Masters have "goals", and certainly not to "create" or "change" anything.
Compassion at this level probably just consist of doing ones will according to ones nature. "
Doing one's will according to one's nature is hardy inconsistent with having goals and living to create or change something
"The thing though, probably, is the precision of alignement is so great that even 0.0000001% compation have like billions times more effect than the Neophyte's 100% one. And this on an automatic level. "
Insightful.
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Thanks for your comments...
I think i confused the nature of the higher grades in a similar way Patrick did when asking "if a Master reincarnates" in the so named topic.
Reading your answer there i find it relates with this one, at least in my understanding.
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sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.
"the victims should be treated with compassion" is the dictionary definition of compassion.As I said in another thread "I don't understand (re AL) how "the consoler" is hated when in fact, consolers have a heart, they have feelings i.e they feel. On the other hand, the miserable don't feel ("for they feel not") and we are therefore told to let them die in their misery".
Therefore the contextual definition of compassion, in AL, must be divorced from this ability tofeel one's way out of misery. In fact it is even opposed to it. Crowley proclaimed in his writings that "to pity a man is to insult him" so yes there he is negating sentimentalism.
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Okay, simplistic question here:
You walk down the road and see a woman being raped. You have the ability to help her. Do you help her? Do you have a moral obligation to help her? Does it depend? If it depends, is it only in obscure cases that you wouldn't help her? Is helping her showing compassion?
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@Luce said
"Okay, simplistic question here:
You walk down the road and see a woman being raped. You have the ability to help her. Do you help her? Do you have a moral obligation to help her? Does it depend? If it depends, is it only in obscure cases that you wouldn't help her? Is helping her showing compassion?"
Yes of course I help her. If not physically then I alert the cops. Is this compassion? I don't know but its certainly sympathy i.e. I'm feeling her pain like it says in Al.