Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"For the longest time I had this idea of the Exempt Adept as being at that threshold. It had never occured to me to just ask.
Thanks!"I think a lot of people tend to think of the "annihilation" of "crossing the Abyss" as the full dissolution of a being - as if it were the culmination of the Eight High Trances. In fact, it's more like the beginning of the Eight High Trances. It's a disentangling of the jumbled threads of "tendencies" to dissipate the illusion of any sense of self and life that existed before, the release of ego identification with any Ruach, Nefesh, or physical (Goof) aspects and the projection structures attached to them... etc. etc. etc.... yet there is still a star in the motion of Will and the condition of Love.
Generally this is expressed as the cessation of all that one is, and I think this is completely true in any sense people would understand that language. One certainly has to be willing for it to be true to navigate the experience.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I think a lot of people tend to think of the "annihilation" of "crossing the Abyss" as the full dissolution of a being - as if it were the culmination of the Eight High Trances. In fact, it's more like the beginning of the Eight High Trances. It's a disentangling of the jumbled threads of "tendencies" to dissipate the illusion of any sense of self and life that existed before, the release of ego identification with any Ruach, Nefesh, or physical (Goof) aspects and the projection structures attached to them... etc. etc. etc.... yet there is still a star in the motion of Will and the condition of Love.
Generally this is expressed as the cessation of all that one is, and I think this is completely true in any sense people would understand that language. One certainly has to be willing for it to be true to navigate the experience."
Well said, Jim.
Well, according to the Four stages of enlightenment (which begins after the passing of the Abyss and entails 8 level trances) as per Theravada tradition, at Anagami level attainment there is no return to this material level and the 4th level, Arahat, there is complete freedom.
Anagami level is maybe 9=2 and Arahat 10=1, if it is even possible to compare these two maps of initiation/attainment.
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@Patriel said
"Trivia question: So the reincarnated 8=3 can't become a Black Brother, can he?"
Once 8=3 has been really attained, there is no need to revisit previous stages of development.
inri
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@Frater INRI said
"Once 8=3 has been really attained, there is no need to revisit previous stages of development."
Every incarnation, no matter what level one has previously attained, one starts all over. "Revisiting previous stages" is exactly what one does. (However, the steps go faster, since it's a recap.)
Remember, there are a new body, a new Nefesh, and a new Rooach to train.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
Every incarnation, no matter what level one has previously attained, one starts all over. "Revisiting previous stages" is exactly what one does. (However, the steps go faster, since it's a recap.)Remember, there are a new body, a new Nefesh, and a new Rooach to train."
Yeah yeah.
And one doesnt stop there, for s/he already knows higher taste.
93 93/93
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Practices in other systems that would bring one to the threshold of choosing whether or not to reincarnate are consistent, in A.'.A.'. terms, with the attaining Ipsissimus. That's not the only characteristic of that part of the Path (and not directly even a basic part of it); but that's the stage parallel the same choice-attainment in other traditions."
Does that mean that the one who attains Ipsissimus has invariably chosen not to reincarnate? (That's how I'd read it.) So one who chooses to stay behind (bodhisattva?) remains at the previous stage of development?
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No. One doesn't necessarily major that decision before attaining the grade.
Or, so the theory would go. It's not like we have dozens of examples with detailed records.
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According to Bill Hamilton (a semi-famous Vipassana meditator and teacher), the arahat Taungpulu Sayadaw chose to reincarnate and take the Bodhisattva bow, this was on the whim of his teacher, who wanted one of his students to reach arahatship and teach Vipassana, and his other student to take the Bodhisattva vow.
The former was Mahasi Sayadaw, the latter was Taungpulu Sayadaw.
The issue of masters reincarnating who have seemingly ended rebirth is dealt with in the Mahayana and Vajrayana vehicles or branches of Buddhism, it appears to be somewhat of a paradox, or "learning what you already know", so there's no real need to rehash it. (What happens is a snag is hit, and so the computer pauses, and delves deeper and deeper (what are these called? successive, delved, nested loops? iterations or stacks or whatever, check out recursive functions), into what it already knows, thus it appears like things are "happening", but time-space is really frozen, it hasn't moved in forever, and is hinged on some problem which it is unable to solve)
Even then, the Zen master Hakuin Ekaku, stated that the ultimateness of Awakening was none other than being a bodhisattva and teaching others!
This phenomenon is often demonstrated with individuals who purposely strip themselves of all attainments and enter the void again, to do it all over again. I think Christ is a good example of this (someone who emptied himself of Godhead, and made the journey all over again).
You might check out the Tulku phenomenon, and the seeming presence of already enlightened individuals, who merely recapitulate the journey, see: Adi Da Samraj.
I have a friend like this, he's somewhat mysterious to me
The other issue of an 8=3 backsliding into "black brotherhood" is a non-issue, because it assumes permanence, or a linear version of time (past, present, future), etc
Any attainment is not "permanent", because it has not happened yet, and so what seems like an "awakening" or "attainment", happening at some point in space-time, is really not that, but something that has already happened, intimating itself through an appearance of causality (it happening)
Thus there is no permanence "up there", nothing is sticky, and in the 4D space, anything can be rearranged, "down here" it appears like things are being lost
(the 4D space is a space where time-space is "frozen", and so things don't really happen, rather they are moved around, but down here it appears like things are happening, or are lost, maybe they are just being sorted)
But it has already happened
Think about how a pen looks if you shove it through a 2D plane, it looks like it's changing, yet to us the pen is unchanging, it is just one pen, it's being shoved through a plane
Similarly in the 4D space, "where everything that can happen, has happened", time-space is "frozen", yet this "already happened" (immanent, and absolute event, hence the subitism argument) intimates itself through a seed-effect causality-like happening, as if things are happening, or that there is a genesis
This is an illusion
So when an arahat reincarnates, he is not losing anything, because he has never had anything, all the pieces of the puzzle are still up there, but are being sorted in some realm wherein we cannot tell why they are there, so "the subjective appearance", may be that the arahat regains his enlightenment
Who knows though
93,
~JJ
Edit:
In 4D space-time things that "happened" in the past can be changed, so while it appears like there is "permanence" or that things can be lost, in reality the pieces are still there, but taken out of our awareness, and being rearranged
It's slightly creepy
So everything there is "frozen", or remains there, but we may not be aware of all those things
It's more of a space where there are a finite amount of pieces that can be changed and rearranged around, but to us it appears like things are "happening" or being reversed (the past being changed), etc
There is no "out there" (somewhat of a separate idea, relating to Advaita Vedanta)
Edit 2:
In other words, what has been gained, apparently, through time, can in fact be lost, because in the 4D space, it is not time (and thus, certainty, or, the past), but in fact a space, wherein things can be rearranged, so the past is not sealed, and nothing, happens
Edit 3:
Time gives the illusion that the past is immutable or sealed, but in a space, things can be rearranged, nevertheless it appears, to "happen through" time, and time is the medium of the intimation of the frozen object, which knows no time, and already is the case, we're merely getting glimpses of it
I guess that's why some people say time is cyclical
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On the question of reincarnating Masters and Ipsissimi, I had a thought a few weeks ago.
Crowley puts "93" in above "666" and "777" in some imprimaturs for libri. This is in reference to Aiwass, certainly, whose number is 93 and of whom Crowley wrote:
"a man as I am, insofar as He uses a human body to make His magical link with Mankind, whom He loves, and that He is thus an Ipsissimus, the Head of the A∴A∴" (Genesis Libri AL cap. VII, Magick part IV).
Okay. So let's say one's HGA is an Ipsissimus. Consider also the A∴A∴ rule about not attaining to a higher grade without preparing one's student to advance as well (the bodhisattva vow, in essence).
Ipsissimus is said to be beyond all understanding of those below it. But one could speculate: By bringing one's own "client" to be ready to become an Ipsissimus, perhaps the "senior" Ipsissimus becomes able to go on to whatever their next step of development is? Something beyond the Tree that we mere mortals can come to grips with?
Maybe just an idle thought, but it might be an interesting angle to put on the HGA/Adept relationship.
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@sk4p said
"Consider also the A∴A∴ rule about not attaining to a higher grade without preparing one's student to advance as well (the bodhisattva vow, in essence)."
"The rule... is never relaxed in the Order of the R.C. or of the S.S.: save only in One Case." - One Star in Sight
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@sk4p said
"Heh. Idle thought, then, I guess.
(I hadn't previously considered that "One" being capitalized in that verse might mean something subtle ...)"With Crowley and typography, damn near everything means something subtle <vbg>.
Now, whether it means the particular thing that my vague inference stirred as a projection in your psyche... well, that's a separate question LOL.
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When your mind state is free of the five hindrances and your concentration is especially strong you enter the first jhana of pleasant sensations. It takes much practice and remember patience is very important. You may not experience your first jhanic state until many years of practice.". From wiki. What would we reincarnate as if we have experienced jhana one?
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@gerry456 said
"What would we reincarnate as if we have experienced jhana one?"
First, these technical details are distinctive to Buddhist theory, and may or may not be true as stated.
But, actually, it doesn't matter if they are, because the answer is the same in either case: The matter of reincarnation is utterly individual. There's not a manual in the sense of vacation spot brochures.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
But, actually, it doesn't matter if they are, because the answer is the same in either case: The matter of reincarnation is utterly individual. There's not a manual in the sense of vacation spot brochures."I was thinking more in terms of the hierarchy i.e. plants, animals, humans, magician/mystics and the possibility of returning as a plant or animal;
It's an ISKCON poster.
If a being has attained to a particular jhana I would say that the future incarnation would involve a rediscovery of that jhana.
Also these jhanas (or "ecstacies" of the Christian mystics) seem to be trans-aeonic.