A Question Regarding Free Will
-
I would agree with you that it is semantics but I'd say that it's exactly those semantics that are at the heart of this issue. I didn't intend my quotes to be of the scary variety but simply to highlight a word for which we have a general definition in English that I don't see as realistically defensible.
To expand on your example:
@gurugeorge said
"Wrt "programming" - both the robot and us are programmed to make some choice (selection among alternative possible actions), but the choice we make isn't itself programmed, even when it's the result of a deterministic process in the cognitive machinery."
I don't see this statement as fully supported by reality, except as a semantic spook. Let's say we have a robot that is programmed to select a red ball from a bin of red and yellow balls. Semantically, there is some truth in the statement: "The robot chooses a red ball." However, though we've simplified the English description to, "the robot is programmed to select a red ball," there is actually more going on in the programming. Most robots are programmed to perform at peak efficiency so most robots will be programmed to select the first red ball their sensors hit. But perhaps, for fun, our robot has been programmed to select the third one it senses. Or to separate all of the balls into two piles based on color and then to filter through all the red ones until it finds the heaviest. Whatever the criteria in its finer levels of programming, the specific red ball that it is going to "choose" out of the bin is not a "choice" as is commonly meant in English but is, rather, the result of a mathematical equation of unassailable exactitude.
"But wait," I hear a voice in the back of the room yell out, "the robot has no control or influence on how the balls were originally arranged in the bin. Surely that level of external randomness influences this transaction in some way. This might lead the robot to choose the red granite ball rather than the red plastic ball because random chance placed the granite ball at the top of the heap."
Alas, as is demonstrated by Jim's example of water running down a hillside and mine of the unification of oxygen and hydrogen, these processes are equally determined by the laws of nature and follow equally programmed rules.
On my own thread exploring these issues, you said the following and I found it to be right on the mark:
<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13996&p=96586#p96586">viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13996&p=96586#p96586</a><!-- l -->
@gurugeorge said
"UNLESS the internal magical theory is correct and there are ways, as-yet-uncanvassed-by-science, but known as a rough and ready art by magicians, to influence or alter determinism as we know it. As I'm in a rationalist phase, I doubt the possibility of that, but even if it were the case, I don't see how that wouldn't be just a deeper understanding of determinism really, still some kind of law-governed flowing of stuff, those "laws" being as above said, a description of the stuff's free wandering (looked at from a higher point of view)."
This thing we call choice is a semantic construct. It's something our minds, as programmed by language, convince us we have the ability to do but, really, it's just describing the results of deterministic processes. And, when I use that term, I understand it to mean processes that are programmed by the laws of physics. Unless, as you say above, there is a way to step outside of the laws of physics in order to perturb them, I don't see any way to support the belief that we can make choices that aren't necessary effects of prior causes. In contrast to your "the process of selection from alternatives is a real process, which is deterministic within itself, in which the selection isn't determined by the world (the world outside the "skin boundary" of the entity), but by the cognitive machinery of the entity," I would say that the selection is determined by the world both inside and outside the skin boundary because that boundary is just as much a construct as anything else that language has created.
Your final line above sums it up very nicely and succinctly. We can only make estimates based on scant knowledge. It is our storytelling about those estimates which we call "choice". It is the realization that we don't actually have the volition that we've always thought we have but that we are, in fact, stars progressing along our necessary course, following our True Will, in alignment with The True Will because there is no other way for us to be, that dissolves the veils of Maya and unites us, consciously, with the Universal Will.
I think.
-
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"Let's say we have a robot that is programmed to select a red ball from a bin of red and yellow balls. Semantically, there is some truth in the statement: "The robot chooses a red ball." However, though we've simplified the English description to, "the robot is programmed to select a red ball," [...] "
No we haven't - well, it depends on the relative sophistication of the programming.
Suppose a chess computer beats a player with a specific move x. The computer was programmed to "play chess", it was programmed to "win at chess"; but was it, in being so programmed, programmed to make that specific move x at that specific time? (Was it necessary, for it to be true to say the program was programmed to "play chess", that every move it makes be programmed by an external entity, i.e. the programmer?)
Clearly, the programmer had no such specific goal in mind as "on Tuesday, 11th August, you will make move x in the game of chess vs. Ms so-and-so, thereby fulfilling the goal of your programming and beating her".
Now, obviously there's a range of sophistication possible here: at one end, simple programming, look-up tables, etc., at the other end, the extreme sophistication of entities like us (and the robots we'll be able to create) which can think for themselves, "on the hoof", as it were. The difference is in the modelling - the better and more sophisticated the world/self model, the more it can be said that any given move is a choice arising out of the merits and demerits of that model, and not out of any "canned" response. (Think of videogames - previously, the death throes of an monster would be programmed as a small, fixed sprite animation, nowadays, there is physics programming, which models the impact of your bullet on the monster, and makes it behave more a real monster might under the same circumstances; different each time.)
So it's the same with the determinism (programming) that drives us. We are programmed, determined, to "make the best selection out of possible options that we can", based on scant knowledge. But that's an abstract, high level description (like "programmed to play chess"). That doesn't mean specific action x at specific time y is programmed into us (determined) - **even though the machinery that makes the selection is deterministic machinery. **
The machine still has to make *its own *calculation, and make its own move - its own choice, and the action it makes based on its calculation is the action that drives its motion, its motion is not driven by any external source, nor by any particular example of determinism, other than the internal deterministic process of the cognitive machinery. And beyond some relevant threshold of sophistication, it really is choice, and not "choice". i.e. it's not something cute that merely looks like it's an on-the-hoof calculation by the robot, but is actually more specifically programmed - it genuinely is an on-the-hoof calculation by the robot, and the choice it makes might be something totally un-envisaged by the programmer. Progress in robotics is partly a balancing act between keeping the machine under control and keeping it independent enough of the programmer's control that it can still make good decisions under its own steam.
Yes, these processes depend on mathematics and on the relatively stable rule-following of nature (e.g. the substance of which the thing is composed), but that doesn't mean that those processes are reaching past your own decision making process and making your every move for you, any more than the programmer who programs the computer to "play chess" is thereby reaching through the computer's decisions and making it make x specific move on y specific day.
Perhaps another way of looking at it would be this: real choice, real freedom, are things that make sense in a context of other entities potentially being able to control your actions. It is my choice as opposed to the guy with the gun pointed at my head, that I do x.
It seemed like this merely "economic" or "social" sense of freedom wasn't enough - and it certainly wouldn't be enough to ground any of those sorts of highfalutin' senses of "Free Will" and "Freedom" and "Choice" that are not measured against potential opposition, potential other-control. But actually, on the contrary, there is no such kind of Free Will, Choice, etc., but there is free will, choice, etc., which stand as terms relative to other entities, whether the chooser is being buffeted around by other entities, or controlled by other entities: this is the only sense in which the term does have meaning and isn't just free-wheeling semantics.
-
First off, I just want to say that I'm loving this discussion. Every time I delve into the mindspace to grapple with new information from another response, it tickles just the right sections of the amygdalae.
@gurugeorge said
"Suppose a chess computer beats a player with a specific move x. The computer was programmed to "play chess", it was programmed to "win at chess"; but was it, in being so programmed, programmed to make that specific move x at that specific time? (Was it necessary, for it to be true to say the program was programmed to "play chess", that every move it makes be programmed by an external entity, i.e. the programmer?)"
No, looked at that way, it wasn't programmed to make that specific move at that specific time, but setting that as your metric for proof misses what programming is and how it can be used as an analogy for reality. Because the computer is programmed to "win at chess", if it encounters a board with an option for checkmate, it will make that move. Likewise, if it is presented with a board with a possibility to checkmate in two, it will make that move. Extend this process backward along the cause-effect chain and you'll start to see how we arrive at a particular move at a particular moment in time.
If we set a computer against a person, we as observers won't be able to predict the end of the game because we, as observers, don't have the means to know the person's programming. However, if we set two computers to play against each other, we could do just that. This would not, however, be as simple as knowing the particular algorithm that each computer is using to evaluate the board in order to select its next move, it would also require knowing what means it is using to run its "random number generator" - which is never random, just highly complex. Also, we'd need to know how many moves ahead each of them are programmed to look in their evaluation of the best current move. We'd need to know their processing power and memory capacity and ambient temperature in order to calculate the time they would require to process each move.
All of these -- and many more -- though not coded as binary either-or decisions by the programmer, are a part of the computer's programming. Even the choice of which computer to set it against as its opponent is a question of programming. If we were able to feed all of these variables into an even larger computer, that computer could calculate for us exactly which moves would be made by both of our competing computers and precisely the time it would take each of them to do it.
Looked at that way, the answer becomes: Yes, the computer was programmed in such a way that it would make that specific move at that specific time.
"Clearly, the programmer had no such specific goal in mind as "on Tuesday, 11th August, you will make move x in the game of chess vs. Ms so-and-so, thereby fulfilling the goal of your programming and beating her"."
Clearly. Nor did the universe need to have it in mind that, at 3:09pm on Sunday, September 6th, a spark would be introduced to a vessel of O2 and H2 thus causing oxygen atom "Ollie" to attract hydrogen atoms "Harriet" and "Harry" into the holy threesome we call a water molecule. Nonetheless, the programming of the universe dictates that, when that spark was fired and Ollie was torn from his brother Omar in the electric armageddon, he would necessarily hook up with the two hydrogen atoms in closest proximity.
"Now, obviously there's a range of sophistication possible here: at one end, simple programming, look-up tables, etc., at the other end, the extreme sophistication of entities like us (and the robots we'll be able to create) which can think for themselves, "on the hoof", as it were."
This appears to be where our models differ. If I'm reading you correctly, you envision some invisible line, on our side of which we can "think for ourselves", and on the other side of which transactions between two discrete bits of reality are dictated by simple programming. Obviously there are gradations along the way but, ultimately, this model requires some line where volition enters into the equation. That line is usually drawn between humans and everything else but I don't find that presumption to be tenable.
Where I see a problem with this is that I see the fundamental level of programming of all of reality affecting every bit of the All equally. From Above to Below and back again, every bit of universe, of Ain Soph, of Maya, of Prana, of Tao, of Prima Materia, of Whatever; every bit of it must follow this fundamental level of programming and at every level, no matter how sophisticated it appears to us, every action can be distilled back to that fundamental level of programming.
The human mind-body matrix is massively complex and constantly changing as new atoms are added to replace others that have fallen away. Even if it weren't, by definition we can never know the complete contents of our own mind because that knowledge would have to somehow fit within our mind which would expand the boundaries, etc. etc. But we can analyze the world around us and, following the hermetic law of correspondence, apply our observations to the thing that is too big for us to wrap our minds around. If we start at the level of the water molecule and slowly work our way up the ladder of complexity -- first to crystals, then to organic molecules, then DNA, then cellular life -- can we find a point where the law of attraction displayed by the water molecule is over-ridden by volition? Or do we instead see that, as more and more of those individual expressions of attraction occur in a system, it becomes too much for our observer brains to track and so we label it as this free-flowing thing called "life" which looks to us to make choices based on its surroundings when, in fact, each individual point within the mass is as deterministically programmed to do what its doing as the individual oxygen atom was?
Before we've even reached multi-celled organisms, the systems are too complex for us to process. However, by looking at the fundamentals we can see that the binary programming at the base level is what's causing the results we witness. Conway's Game of Life gives us a beautiful demonstration of this.
"Yes, these processes depend on mathematics and on the relatively stable rule-following of nature (e.g. the substance of which the thing is composed), but that doesn't mean that those processes are reaching past your own decision making process and making your every move for you, any more than the programmer who programs the computer to "play chess" is thereby reaching through the computer's decisions and making it make x specific move on y specific day."
I'd go a step farther. I'd say that nature is, by definition, exactly stable at mathematics. It never fails. Mathematics is the programming. There aren't decisions to make; there is only one eternal equation that is solving itself.
"Perhaps another way of looking at it would be this: real choice, real freedom, are things that make sense in a context of other entities potentially being able to control your actions. It is my choice as opposed to the guy with the gun pointed at my head, that I do x."
Within that context, I'd agree. And I'd guess that that's what the quote I vaguely remembered about acting as if we have free will is pointing towards (it was Paul Foster Case as well, btw). But it seems to me that that context is the veil of illusion that we are attempting to wipe away. That it is getting to the other side of that belief that my choice is somehow separate from the guy with the gun that is the work. Unite subject and object (self and gun-threat) until both disappear.
-
Great discussion, haven't read through all of the replies yet so I may be stating something someone else already noted. Free Will of the materialists and True Will of Thelema are not necessarily trying to occupy the same philosophical space. They are entirely different concepts. 'True Will' implies a universal intention expressed at the level of the atomic - and is teleological. It does not need a 'free will' for it to exist, nor does it even need a choice between a 'true will' and a 'false will' for it to be 'free will'.
Its not compatible in any way with the 'free will' concept used by materialists to try and debunk dualistic models of consciousness which it inherited from Christianity and Judaism and the choice between Good and evil.
Crowley compared true will as the equivalency of bidding the stars to shine, for it is their will to shine light. In this regard, stars of no no choice but to do their will. They do not choose between shining light and say, baking donuts or weaving baskets.
Free will as used by Sam Harris is also a philosophically unusable idea inherent with its own flaws. Even Dan Dennett chief architect of the materialist argument refutes materialists who trash on free will. www.samharris.org/blog/item/reflections-on-free-will
Sam Harris , as articulate and intelligent as he is - is still fundamentally assuming the brain is the generator of consciousness and he remains philosophically consistent with that idea, including the dismissal of free will altogether.
So even if Harris is closer to true about free will and the brain, it does not contradict or refute philosophical thelema on will at all, for easily we could say that, yes, we are purely robotic mindless robots with an illusion of free will and choice until we discover our true will, and do nothing but that.
Cheers!
-
I really enjoy this, you all have some great insights.
It has been my idea for a while now, that everyone is doing their True Will. Is it correct then to say that it is impossible to not accomplish one's True Will? What about the "Black Brothers", and the cat of slime of the Abyss?
If one fails, was that their True Will? This is the part where I am confused. It would seem to me that the Book of the Law, and the idea behind Thelema is to liberate the individual, to give them freedom, and to enlighten etc etc. If we cannot help where we are pulled along by this greater Will, then how can we ever say anyone has failed? This is why I assume the BOTL says "There is success". Likewise, how about those that the book warns against? For example the fill/kill debate? All these start to become sort of lost in the shuffle of we are all just going along, and so why the worry?
-
This is just what my Lotus is telling me since I live without nourishment from my peers. Nor do I have any experience besides my own experiences. I have a novice and second-hand understanding of the labels and debates.
Discussion is also part of Will. I know there is a danger of confusing external and internal, but it can't be helped, part of the process. Wrong or Right each side should learn something. Whatever takes you to the next step of understanding (Light) I suppose. Which is the point of debate in the mind or with others. More like wrestling than worrying. The Free Will/Fate debate is just another of these wranglings. It may be that we are biologically bound to fate but we will resist admitting it until the very end...
Why not?Ultimately the question isn't why we debate with others but about the specifics on why we debate with ourselves. This has been an interesting discussion.
True Will is more of your Will after you get most of your impurities together and balanced (removing personal restraints). Which takes devotion and thorough analysis of personal Karma. If a person isn't close enough to this point then they would fall back to cast blame on some other thing or person ect. until the next alignment can occur. So Will and True Will are just a matter of adeptship.
Would it be true to say that Black Brothers have a major fear based blind that also the external environment and others around them would support? And that such would be necessary in certain circumstances, just like Severity is for the Work. Every possibility in the universe has a certain utility along the line.
Thank you as always.
-
@Jason R said
"I really enjoy this, you all have some great insights.
It has been my idea for a while now, that everyone is doing their True Will. Is it correct then to say that it is impossible to not accomplish one's True Will? What about the "Black Brothers", and the cat of slime of the Abyss?
"I'm not sure if 'doing one's true will' and being aware of one's true will are the same. I could see that someone with relatively poor levels of awareness or corrupted ideas could be fooled by nothing more than their own magick.
If one becomes aware of the 'continuity of existence' - then ultimately yes our true will is the continuity of existence so yes we are all performing our true wills - and if one finds themselves spending an aeon or two in a pile of sludge because they deluded themselves to their own intentions that does not circumvent their own true will to exist.
-
@ldfriend56 said
"
@Jason R said
"I really enjoy this, you all have some great insights.It has been my idea for a while now, that everyone is doing their True Will. Is it correct then to say that it is impossible to not accomplish one's True Will? What about the "Black Brothers", and the cat of slime of the Abyss?
"I'm not sure if 'doing one's true will' and being aware of one's true will are the same. I could see that someone with relatively poor levels of awareness or corrupted ideas could be fooled by nothing more than their own magick.
If one becomes aware of the 'continuity of existence' - then ultimately yes our true will is the continuity of existence so yes we are all performing our true wills - and if one finds themselves spending an aeon or two in a pile of sludge because they deluded themselves to their own intentions that does not circumvent their own true will to exist."
I am still not sure, after going over this a while now, if it makes sense.
I think it is pretty evident that we honestly have no true control over the source of our conscious thoughts. This can be demonstrated by trying to explain the process behind any random thought, and how one arrived at it. If this is the case, saying things like "...they deluded themselves" doesn't make sense - because obviously you have no choice in the matter. You either are deluded beyond your control or not. Therefore, the idea that one can consciously, and willfully take up the Great Work, and succeed - has to be false. If you succeed, it wasn't truly because of your conscious choice, and if you fail, well - it wasn't under your control as well.
If we simply look around at various people we meet, or those around the world, I think it is painfully obvious that some simply would never be able to do this work, even if they did have true free will. In the end, the only conclusion I can see, is that everyone is simply flowing along this river called life, and moving according to some grand picture, without any possible control whatsoever. The only real control is something that is much higher perhaps and not at all personal.
Those who achieve any type of self mastery or 'True Will' - do so because something greater pushed them there. Or, perhaps there is no personal True Will at all. Maybe the BOL is simply one declaration, that tells us what is happening, that we are "to do" "Thou" "Will" period. We all MUST do it, and never fail at doing it. The task of finding this is an illusion, and some simply are a part of a current beyond their choosing that takes them down this Thelemic road.
-
@Jason R said
"Those who achieve any type of self mastery or 'True Will' - do so because something greater pushed them there."
More or less repeating: the something greater is that which we truly are.
You're seeing things from the bottom-up, but it's top-down. (Or, if you prefer, you're seeing it from outside-in, but it's from the inside-out.)
-
I rarely involve myself in this mystical jargon business. The bottom line is that the answer is highly dependent on where you are at the time you read my words. What I mean is, you are correct. There is a portion of conditions concerning where you are at the moment that will determine what "it all means to you," and what you will become after that. Yet, it's a truth (referring to Jim's demonstrations of "truth vs fact") that it will mean something to you only specific to you if I say it.
So deal with it. (That's my advice. You are who you are and you are where you are at, and it will mean what it means, and none of it is wrong for you here now. There. I said it.)
-
@Jason R said
"
I am still not sure, after going over this a while now, if it makes sense.I think it is pretty evident that we honestly have no true control over the source of our conscious thoughts."
maybe, I'm not sure - however conscious intention is something we have control over. We either have a conscious intention that is in harmony with the universe, or a conscious intention not in harmony with the universe. Or maybe some combination of both!
"
This can be demonstrated by trying to explain the process behind any random thought, and how one arrived at it. If this is the case, saying things like "...they deluded themselves" doesn't make sense - because obviously you have no choice in the matter. You either are deluded beyond your control or not. Therefore, the idea that one can consciously, and willfully take up the Great Work, and succeed - has to be false. If you succeed, it wasn't truly because of your conscious choice, and if you fail, well - it wasn't under your control as well. "
'thoughts' and 'intention' are not identical. I have dark thoughts or impulsive thoughts that come to me while I can observer them and discard them, or execute on them - as my conscious choice. However, if I am clear on my intention, and set my intention with my whole being - its interesting to note that my thoughts also shift.
"If we simply look around at various people we meet, or those around the world, I think it is painfully obvious that some simply would never be able to do this work, even if they did have true free will. In the end, the only conclusion I can see, is that everyone is simply flowing along this river called life, and moving according to some grand picture, without any possible control whatsoever. The only real control is something that is much higher perhaps and not at all personal. "
maybe. I don't know. There is hope and help for everyone - and perhaps the true will of a small handful of individuals to help increase awareness for those people - and all of us.
"Those who achieve any type of self mastery or 'True Will' - do so because something greater pushed them there. Or, perhaps there is no personal True Will at all. Maybe the BOL is simply one declaration, that tells us what is happening, that we are "to do" "Thou" "Will" period. We all MUST do it, and never fail at doing it. The task of finding this is an illusion, and some simply are a part of a current beyond their choosing that takes them down this Thelemic road."
True Will is not discovered in the mind nor is it a thought in the mind. True Will is a state of being and alignment that is consistent with the harmony of the universe. 'It shall be suddenly easy to do this' is often a sign that one is in a state of their True Will.
Your questions seem to poke at 'why the fall of humanity from a state of grace of true will?' and that's a valid philosophical question. Why do we HAVE to discover our true will while stars don't? Why would anyone have a true will to exist in the slums of India, poor, starving and blind? Do we have to re-disover our true will every friggin time we re-incarnate? jeezus mary and joseph how many abyss' do we have to cross , one in each lifetime??
All valid questions. I don't have any answers for them and found it is easier to discover one's true will than to answer those questions about everyone else's.
Cheers!
-
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"
This appears to be where our models differ. If I'm reading you correctly, you envision some invisible line, on our side of which we can "think for ourselves", and on the other side of which transactions between two discrete bits of reality are dictated by simple programming. Obviously there are gradations along the way but, ultimately, this model requires some line where volition enters into the equation. That line is usually drawn between humans and everything else but I don't find that presumption to be tenable.Where I see a problem with this is that I see the fundamental level of programming of all of reality affecting every bit of the All equally. "
This is a great discussion that I meant at one time to respond to then other things intervened - apologies!
In the interim I had some thoughts (Lord, please forgive me!).
I think what I'm getting at is that this kind of "everything affecting everything equally" is a bit breathless - purple even
In fact, what you have is pockets of relatively independent determinism. While it's the same laws operating on the same types of building blocks inside your skin bundle as the laws and building blocks operative in !!%^plok's chitin bundle at the other end of the Milky Way (our two species probably being the only ones inhabiting this particular galaxy, if we follow both Master Drake and Saint Fermi), and while (as AC says somewhere) there may be some tiny gravitational effect from your body to his, practically speaking, there's no deterministic causal chain that has any important effect. All the important chains are things in !!%^plok's vicinity relative to him (i.e. the bundle of bodymind machinery we label "!!%^plok"), and in your vicinity relative to you ("your" body/mind machinery, that labelled publicly "Gnosomai Emauton").
And actually it's not much different from you sitting on that side of the world and me sitting on this one. Our only interaction is through the medium of this "aperiodic crystal" (Schrodinger's prediction of DNA, as I'm sure you're aware
) that we call language. And here we start to see a more effective causal chain and a possibility of noticeable influence. But it's still not got much meat on the bone.If we get into eyeball/vocal range, then the causal chains really start to potentially have a very noticeable influence that can change what's going on in our respective deterministic pockets. Then you're starting to talk about a causally coupled pair and being able to predict both our behaviours in relation to each other (as with your two computers).
And I think at the end of the day, that's all that's meant by free will - the actual free will that objectively exists, and is worth wanting, and defending. And it's all the term actually referred to when it functioned effectively (e.g. in jurisprudence) even when people thought it referred to the highfalutin' philosophical concept. It's this relative independence of our respective deterministic pockets, which at a practical mano-a-mano level we (or rather that sub-portion of our machinery dedicated to such things) defend from both gross, pushing-about-type interference, and subtler manipulations that might override those portions of our respective machineries responsible for navigating a path through an obstacle-filled world.
(All this of course without any idea that "me", "I", etc., are anything other than convenient markers pointing to a pocket process as if it were a singular entity - notional or narrative "centres of gravity", as Dennett says.)
-
"I am certainly of opinion that genius can be acquired, or, in the alternative, that it is an almost universal possession. Its rarity may be attributed to the crushing influence of a corrupted society. It is rare to meet a youth without high ideals, generous thoughts, a sense of holiness, of his own importance, which, being interpreted, is, of his own identity with God. Three years in the world, and he is a bank clerk or even a government official. Only those who intuitively understand from early boyhood that they must stand out, and who have the incredible courage and endurance to do so in the face of all that tyranny, callousness, and the scorn of inferiors can do; only these arrive at manhood uncontaminated." - AC
Taking a "top down" view, and seeing each of us as the greater, then to paraphrase Takamba "we are what we are". Nothing is "acquired", one can't say he can "work on himself, and attain genius" if he is pinned to the ground being what the greater has planned for him regardless. It becomes useless to tell anyone they can do this or that ritual to obtain change, if that change is already part of the plan and whole. The work is nonsense if there is no true "from down here" control over ones decisions and "True Will." Looking at the above quote from AC, we see him talking about the career choices etc., however, if what we are truly saying is that we are simply who we are, and nothing can be done unless that up there (who we truly are) allows it, then it is a fools errand. Again, this would mean we already have "success" no matter what happens. We ALL must be doing our True Will, if who we are is the greater aspect of ourselves. If I have no real control over the hidden mechanics of forming my decisions then who do we blame or praise for progress or failure? There couldn't be failure if the greater was the force behind all these decisions, and we are nothing but pawns. Magic seemed to me to be about "causing" change to conform to the will. How is this possible then? How do we conform anything if we are "looking down" from above? If what we are is not from the bottom up, then why do we even TRY to perform magic to create "change"? We could attain many of the things we are looking to use magic for by other means, or perhaps, we wouldn't need magic at all if the universe truly wanted us to have them. I am failing to see now the necessity of "magic" at all.
-
@Jason R said
"Magic seemed to me to be about "causing" change to conform to the will. How is this possible then?"
The change is caused within the conditional (limited) existence. The same existence that contains the illusion of choice.
"How do we conform anything if we are "looking down" from above?"
By being omnipotent.
"If what we are is not from the bottom up, then why do we even TRY to perform magic to create "change"?"
"If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought.
If Power asks why, then is Power weakness.
Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.""We could attain many of the things we are looking to use magic for by other means, or perhaps, we wouldn't need magic at all if the universe truly wanted us to have them. I am failing to see now the necessity of "magic" at all."
I'm not sure what you mean by "magic." That definition is important.
-
@Jason R said
"The work is nonsense if there is no true "from down here" control over ones decisions and "True Will.""
You and I disagree with this. I assert that the personality is a convenient fiction or shell game with which we misidentify and that most of the Work is getting it out of the way, a most powerful means of which is to train it to correctly perceive and choose only those things that are authentic to oneself. In other words, there is no "will" from the personality's perspective, only a lot of "won't," until the personality removes itself and its meddling ways from the picture.
"We ALL must be doing our True Will, if who we are is the greater aspect of ourselves."
As long as the personality controls the doing, and has not yet learned to choose only things in alignment with one's own nature and truth, then the doing part (not to be confused with who we are) will most likely be at odds with True Will. This is the normal human state.
"If I have no real control over the hidden mechanics of forming my decisions then who do we blame or praise for progress or failure?"
Are blame and praise necessary? (Or were you just speaking of attribution?)
"There couldn't be failure if the greater was the force behind all these decisions, and we are nothing but pawns."
The personality is not a pawn. It's a façade. And it has profound powers of resistance and obfuscation. The issue here is the degree of alignment of one's personality with one's deep, authentic self.
"Magic seemed to me to be about "causing" change to conform to the will. How is this possible then?"
It took me years of living with Crowley's definition of magick, and writing an essay breaking it apart word for word, before someone pointed out to me that I'd defined every important word in it except cause. It then took me a few more years of mostly ignoring that before I realized that (in this context, as in many others), "cause" is a perfect synonym got "choose." Everything about ourselves and the world is in constant change, so there is no need (and probably no capacity) to cause change in the usual way of understanding those words. What we are doing is choosing change, and choosing particular changes. Magick is the science and art of choosing change that aligns us more deeply with (brings us more in conformity with) True Will.
"We could attain many of the things we are looking to use magic for by other means, or perhaps, we wouldn't need magic at all if the universe truly wanted us to have them. I am failing to see now the necessity of "magic" at all."
It's just a technique to whip us into the shape needed to fulfill our spiritual aspirations. Along the way, one learns some terribly important things about getting on with one's life.
-
@gurugeorge said
"This is a great discussion that I meant at one time to respond to then other things intervened - apologies!"
Ditto.
"this kind of "everything affecting everything equally" is a bit breathless - purple even
"I would tend to agree. Does that make it false though?
"In fact, what you have is pockets of relatively independent determinism..."
It seems to me that this is a matter of perspective. Your description of pockets of determinism seems sound when one looks at it from within one of those self-created bubbles of time/space but, if one moves one's viewing apparatus farther out (both in space and, more importantly, time) the lines begin to blur. For instance: While it's true that GnoEma and !!%^plok don't seem to share any causal connection in a time sense that we humans can hold in our mind, if we work to extend our perception of the timeline to a universal scale, we start to see that there was a time, billions of years ago perhaps, when a carbon atom that currently resides in GnoEma's left shoulder was linked to an oxygen atom -- currently in !!%^plok's knee -- in the depths of a rock circling some star long since dead.
"So what?" you ask. "That doesn't mean there's any causal linkage between them now."
Perhaps. Perhaps not. Current experiments with Bell's Theorem are showing that a relationship does persist, no matter the distance, between two particles that were once in connection. But, even beyond that, there is the simple fact that that carbon atom and that oxygen atom persisted through the aeons, going through any sort of what we might romantically term "adventures" but which are, in reality, simply the necessary results of the Law of Attraction determining, with mathematical precision, when and how they would separate from the atoms they're currently bonded to and unite with others, trading electrons at every step. The entire history of their life-span (all of history, really) is an interwoven mesh of relationships, all of which are determined by natural law.
So what is it that separates what we call the "volition" of GnoEma and !!%^plok from that causal chain? Is "volition" part of a force that was waiting on the sidelines, somehow outside of reality, until cause/effect formed structures complex enough for it to inhabit? Is "volition" a necessary part of that cause/effect process that we just haven't developed fine enough instruments to witness yet? Is what we witness in teh chemical world and label "necessity" actually identical with something correctly labeled "choice"?
I don't necessarily have answers to these questions, but logical deduction keeps bringing me back to the solution that every process in all of Universe (including every process that is part of what I feel to be my consciousness) is a part of this cause/effect chain that is guided inflexibly by the Law of Attraction. The last time I brought up this conundrum on these boards, I was guided to PF Case's writings on The Chariot and found him saying much the same thing, though maybe without as much awareness of the weirdness of modern physics, and that helped me towards beginning to marry my logical deductions with the fiction that is "actively choosing" to perform the Great Work.
One thing that does keep me thinking about it, searching for something that is beyond what I am currently able to ponder, is that line from Liber L: "Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise."
-
@Jason R said
"Nothing is "acquired", one can't say he can "work on himself, and attain genius" if he is pinned to the ground being what the greater has planned for him regardless."
I'd be careful of your wording here. While one can't say that he'll work on himself and attain genius, I would say it's certainly possible to work on oneself and discover genius. (Noting that this goes nowhere towards deciding whether this "work" is volitional or determined.)
"The work is nonsense if there is no true "from down here" control over ones decisions and "True Will." "
I think that probably depends on what is meant by "work". The ultimate goal of the Work, after all, is meant to be complete unity with the All/Not somewhere beyond Kether. What do you perceive that to mean if it's not the full and complete realization that you are All/Not and that I am All/Not and that All is All/Not? Since each piece of the All/Not needs to arrive back at the source by a different path (necessarily) each piece has its own "work" to do (perceived by us as volitional but, in actuality, necessary).
"If I have no real control over the hidden mechanics of forming my decisions then who do we blame or praise for progress or failure? "
Now there's a question worthy of deep meditation.
"Magic seemed to me to be about "causing" change to conform to the will. "
Not exactly. "Causing change in conformity with the will." This isn't about making things that you want, it's about following that necessary Law of Attraction, otherwise known as "Will". And, yeah, I feel your frustration on the whole personal volitional aspect. The best I've come up with is that that "factor infinite & unknown" is a thing that is a part of nature but that exists outside of our normal perceptions of the Laws of Nature and it is that factor that brings choice into the equation and causes what scientists would measure as perturbations of the cause/effect chain. But how it escapes it's own chains of cause/effect is beyond me at this point.
-
We don't know the point of needing to discover, or why the whole set up leads to us needing to discover this "authentic" tendency etc (tw), do we?
I wonder what is so special about something, so called "authentic" anyway. Think about this a moment. Why would something we truly like or feel good about, or that was somehow "true" to our character, automatically be "right"? What is right? What is "good"? Many things historical figures accomplished, occurred by mistake, or would not have been possible without some character flaw, some wrong choice perhaps.
I am starting to ask the question, what is so wrong with imperfection and illusion? Most of what we see, and think is illusion, much of the personality is illusion. Yet, how many have accomplished great things with the most pronounced ego's and self delusions? How many actually find happiness in their lives based completely on a delusional perception not only of themselves, but of the world? Evangelicals, I'm looking at you!
Hell, what is happiness? Is that the end goal? Is that what makes us finding some mythical authentic set of traits so great? Maybe, what we need is simply the right delusions to spur us on, and make us confident, and more productive? What great wrong is committed if someone lives according to some "wrong" picture of themselves? Are we saying that nothing productive or important can arise from a person who is acting on bad information?
My point is, what if it is natural, after all, and human to be fooled by all sorts of things? What is our delusion, or one we unknowingly are handed, or even create for ourselves is just what we needed in some greater scheme of things?
Instead of worrying about what is "real" for us, or authentic to some secret true self etc., we instead look at what is, what we are handed, and what we need to do to change it. In other words, we don't say that the starving child in Africa is deprived of finding his true authentic choices, but rather, that child needs to understand his circumstances, and what he can do to change his circumstances period. If that entails fooling himself to gather self esteem and an inflated ego to motivate himself, so be it. If the would be Dr., hates being a Dr., and would rather be a Chef, maybe he should think again about what being a Chef may change in his life, and what that may lead to, instead of changing careers based upon some obscure fact it is his authentic want.
So many things to question. If we are all united in a greater, interconnected "thing", it would stand to reason that EVEN the "mistakes", the illusions we hold have value and worth, and a purpose. How many people in history tell this story? Something they loathed about themselves, or that held them back turned out to be the very thing that spurred them on to success. So, now, I can hear someone say, well those flaws were of course the very authentic aspects, or True Will!
Maybe, as the Book of the Law states, "Do what Thou Wilt, shall be the whole of the Law" is the whole thing. We simply be ourselves, and by that I mean, we simply follow what we are given, and what delusions we are handed, and can't escape! Illusions about ourselves we spend most of our time ignorant of ARE in fact our True Wills. After all, no matter what argument you have regarding this, one thing is for certain, those illusions brought you to the great work, or self mastery in the first place - or they didn't allow you to arrive at all.
-
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"Current experiments with Bell's Theorem are showing that a relationship does persist, no matter the distance, between two particles that were once in connection. "
Another belated reply!
Is the relationship deterministic though? I'm not as familiar with the physics as I ought to be, but from what I can gather, the relationship between atoms at the level of quantum entanglement is somewhat mysterious and not exactly "clockwork-causal" as per Laplace's historic formulation.
" But, even beyond that, there is the simple fact that that carbon atom and that oxygen atom persisted through the aeons, going through any sort of what we might romantically term "adventures" but which are, in reality, simply the necessary results of the Law of Attraction determining, with mathematical precision, when and how they would separate from the atoms they're currently bonded to and unite with others, trading electrons at every step. The entire history of their life-span (all of history, really) is an interwoven mesh of relationships, all of which are determined by natural law."
The "adventures" thing reminds me of that stuff about "atom's adventures" that AC talked about (in several places, recently I came across him using it in his Foyle's Luncheon speech). I must admit, I never really grokked that. Atoms aren't conscious (unless one is definitely plumping for pantheism or something like that). OTOH if it's being used figuratively, in the sense of "atoms of experience" or something like that, then maybe. But meh.
I do agree with the picture you're painting in that poetic sense, and in the mystical sense - ultimately, yes, it's like that. It's all just "one/my body" anyway. But at the level of everyday life, the choices this moist, social robot makes aren't determined, even though the machinery it makes the choices with is deterministic (but we've gone over that above). The confusion arises from the fact that our "folk sense" of what's going on is off (i.e. the choices aren't made by some ghost in the machine, but by the machine itself, and delivered to consciousness as a fait accompli, as a passing phenomenon, some time after the machine actually made them).
" So what is it that separates what we call the "volition" of GnoEma and !!%^plok from that causal chain? Is "volition" part of a force that was waiting on the sidelines, somehow outside of reality, until cause/effect formed structures complex enough for it to inhabit? Is "volition" a necessary part of that cause/effect process that we just haven't developed fine enough instruments to witness yet? Is what we witness in teh chemical world and label "necessity" actually identical with something correctly labeled "choice"? "
Again, I'd go to the distinction between language as an instrument of social co-ordination, and language as pertaining to subjective experience (I, consciousness). The problem is, these have been mixed up. Language as a social phenomenon posits a notional centre to what is in reality a "pocket determinism", actually a whole symphony of factors working together. But we "introject" that notional centre, and believe it's that that's making the choices, whereas it's the pocket-deterministic causal bundle, with its limited but nevertheless real ability to self-steer and navigate its way through the world. The notional centre ("centre of narrative gravity" as Dennett puts it) isn't problematic on its own, it's a useful "illusion" (like a cursor, or the notion of a centre of gravity for physical bodies), it's only problematic insofar as it's introjected and pasted over consciousness per se, our Hadit-centre, which is Reality experiencing Itself. (This being Avidya in the Advaitic sense - ignorance or covering of our true nature by a false idea of what we truly are as limited, separate, etc.)
"I don't necessarily have answers to these questions, but logical deduction keeps bringing me back to the solution that every process in all of Universe (including every process that is part of what I feel to be my consciousness) is a part of this cause/effect chain that is guided inflexibly by the Law of Attraction. The last time I brought up this conundrum on these boards, I was guided to PF Case's writings on The Chariot and found him saying much the same thing, though maybe without as much awareness of the weirdness of modern physics, and that helped me towards beginning to marry my logical deductions with the fiction that is "actively choosing" to perform the Great Work.
One thing that does keep me thinking about it, searching for something that is beyond what I am currently able to ponder, is that line from Liber L: "Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.""
Aye, that's the thing that keeps us from being trapped in insane rational loops and enables us to "jump out of the system".