A Question Regarding Free Will
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@Jason R said
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I am still not sure, after going over this a while now, if it makes sense.I think it is pretty evident that we honestly have no true control over the source of our conscious thoughts."
maybe, I'm not sure - however conscious intention is something we have control over. We either have a conscious intention that is in harmony with the universe, or a conscious intention not in harmony with the universe. Or maybe some combination of both!
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This can be demonstrated by trying to explain the process behind any random thought, and how one arrived at it. If this is the case, saying things like "...they deluded themselves" doesn't make sense - because obviously you have no choice in the matter. You either are deluded beyond your control or not. Therefore, the idea that one can consciously, and willfully take up the Great Work, and succeed - has to be false. If you succeed, it wasn't truly because of your conscious choice, and if you fail, well - it wasn't under your control as well. "
'thoughts' and 'intention' are not identical. I have dark thoughts or impulsive thoughts that come to me while I can observer them and discard them, or execute on them - as my conscious choice. However, if I am clear on my intention, and set my intention with my whole being - its interesting to note that my thoughts also shift.
"If we simply look around at various people we meet, or those around the world, I think it is painfully obvious that some simply would never be able to do this work, even if they did have true free will. In the end, the only conclusion I can see, is that everyone is simply flowing along this river called life, and moving according to some grand picture, without any possible control whatsoever. The only real control is something that is much higher perhaps and not at all personal. "
maybe. I don't know. There is hope and help for everyone - and perhaps the true will of a small handful of individuals to help increase awareness for those people - and all of us.
"Those who achieve any type of self mastery or 'True Will' - do so because something greater pushed them there. Or, perhaps there is no personal True Will at all. Maybe the BOL is simply one declaration, that tells us what is happening, that we are "to do" "Thou" "Will" period. We all MUST do it, and never fail at doing it. The task of finding this is an illusion, and some simply are a part of a current beyond their choosing that takes them down this Thelemic road."
True Will is not discovered in the mind nor is it a thought in the mind. True Will is a state of being and alignment that is consistent with the harmony of the universe. 'It shall be suddenly easy to do this' is often a sign that one is in a state of their True Will.
Your questions seem to poke at 'why the fall of humanity from a state of grace of true will?' and that's a valid philosophical question. Why do we HAVE to discover our true will while stars don't? Why would anyone have a true will to exist in the slums of India, poor, starving and blind? Do we have to re-disover our true will every friggin time we re-incarnate? jeezus mary and joseph how many abyss' do we have to cross , one in each lifetime??
All valid questions. I don't have any answers for them and found it is easier to discover one's true will than to answer those questions about everyone else's.
Cheers!
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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This appears to be where our models differ. If I'm reading you correctly, you envision some invisible line, on our side of which we can "think for ourselves", and on the other side of which transactions between two discrete bits of reality are dictated by simple programming. Obviously there are gradations along the way but, ultimately, this model requires some line where volition enters into the equation. That line is usually drawn between humans and everything else but I don't find that presumption to be tenable.Where I see a problem with this is that I see the fundamental level of programming of all of reality affecting every bit of the All equally. "
This is a great discussion that I meant at one time to respond to then other things intervened - apologies!
In the interim I had some thoughts (Lord, please forgive me!).
I think what I'm getting at is that this kind of "everything affecting everything equally" is a bit breathless - purple even
In fact, what you have is pockets of relatively independent determinism. While it's the same laws operating on the same types of building blocks inside your skin bundle as the laws and building blocks operative in !!%^plok's chitin bundle at the other end of the Milky Way (our two species probably being the only ones inhabiting this particular galaxy, if we follow both Master Drake and Saint Fermi), and while (as AC says somewhere) there may be some tiny gravitational effect from your body to his, practically speaking, there's no deterministic causal chain that has any important effect. All the important chains are things in !!%^plok's vicinity relative to him (i.e. the bundle of bodymind machinery we label "!!%^plok"), and in your vicinity relative to you ("your" body/mind machinery, that labelled publicly "Gnosomai Emauton").
And actually it's not much different from you sitting on that side of the world and me sitting on this one. Our only interaction is through the medium of this "aperiodic crystal" (Schrodinger's prediction of DNA, as I'm sure you're aware
) that we call language. And here we start to see a more effective causal chain and a possibility of noticeable influence. But it's still not got much meat on the bone.If we get into eyeball/vocal range, then the causal chains really start to potentially have a very noticeable influence that can change what's going on in our respective deterministic pockets. Then you're starting to talk about a causally coupled pair and being able to predict both our behaviours in relation to each other (as with your two computers).
And I think at the end of the day, that's all that's meant by free will - the actual free will that objectively exists, and is worth wanting, and defending. And it's all the term actually referred to when it functioned effectively (e.g. in jurisprudence) even when people thought it referred to the highfalutin' philosophical concept. It's this relative independence of our respective deterministic pockets, which at a practical mano-a-mano level we (or rather that sub-portion of our machinery dedicated to such things) defend from both gross, pushing-about-type interference, and subtler manipulations that might override those portions of our respective machineries responsible for navigating a path through an obstacle-filled world.
(All this of course without any idea that "me", "I", etc., are anything other than convenient markers pointing to a pocket process as if it were a singular entity - notional or narrative "centres of gravity", as Dennett says.)
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"I am certainly of opinion that genius can be acquired, or, in the alternative, that it is an almost universal possession. Its rarity may be attributed to the crushing influence of a corrupted society. It is rare to meet a youth without high ideals, generous thoughts, a sense of holiness, of his own importance, which, being interpreted, is, of his own identity with God. Three years in the world, and he is a bank clerk or even a government official. Only those who intuitively understand from early boyhood that they must stand out, and who have the incredible courage and endurance to do so in the face of all that tyranny, callousness, and the scorn of inferiors can do; only these arrive at manhood uncontaminated." - AC
Taking a "top down" view, and seeing each of us as the greater, then to paraphrase Takamba "we are what we are". Nothing is "acquired", one can't say he can "work on himself, and attain genius" if he is pinned to the ground being what the greater has planned for him regardless. It becomes useless to tell anyone they can do this or that ritual to obtain change, if that change is already part of the plan and whole. The work is nonsense if there is no true "from down here" control over ones decisions and "True Will." Looking at the above quote from AC, we see him talking about the career choices etc., however, if what we are truly saying is that we are simply who we are, and nothing can be done unless that up there (who we truly are) allows it, then it is a fools errand. Again, this would mean we already have "success" no matter what happens. We ALL must be doing our True Will, if who we are is the greater aspect of ourselves. If I have no real control over the hidden mechanics of forming my decisions then who do we blame or praise for progress or failure? There couldn't be failure if the greater was the force behind all these decisions, and we are nothing but pawns. Magic seemed to me to be about "causing" change to conform to the will. How is this possible then? How do we conform anything if we are "looking down" from above? If what we are is not from the bottom up, then why do we even TRY to perform magic to create "change"? We could attain many of the things we are looking to use magic for by other means, or perhaps, we wouldn't need magic at all if the universe truly wanted us to have them. I am failing to see now the necessity of "magic" at all.
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@Jason R said
"Magic seemed to me to be about "causing" change to conform to the will. How is this possible then?"
The change is caused within the conditional (limited) existence. The same existence that contains the illusion of choice.
"How do we conform anything if we are "looking down" from above?"
By being omnipotent.
"If what we are is not from the bottom up, then why do we even TRY to perform magic to create "change"?"
"If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought.
If Power asks why, then is Power weakness.
Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.""We could attain many of the things we are looking to use magic for by other means, or perhaps, we wouldn't need magic at all if the universe truly wanted us to have them. I am failing to see now the necessity of "magic" at all."
I'm not sure what you mean by "magic." That definition is important.
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@Jason R said
"The work is nonsense if there is no true "from down here" control over ones decisions and "True Will.""
You and I disagree with this. I assert that the personality is a convenient fiction or shell game with which we misidentify and that most of the Work is getting it out of the way, a most powerful means of which is to train it to correctly perceive and choose only those things that are authentic to oneself. In other words, there is no "will" from the personality's perspective, only a lot of "won't," until the personality removes itself and its meddling ways from the picture.
"We ALL must be doing our True Will, if who we are is the greater aspect of ourselves."
As long as the personality controls the doing, and has not yet learned to choose only things in alignment with one's own nature and truth, then the doing part (not to be confused with who we are) will most likely be at odds with True Will. This is the normal human state.
"If I have no real control over the hidden mechanics of forming my decisions then who do we blame or praise for progress or failure?"
Are blame and praise necessary? (Or were you just speaking of attribution?)
"There couldn't be failure if the greater was the force behind all these decisions, and we are nothing but pawns."
The personality is not a pawn. It's a façade. And it has profound powers of resistance and obfuscation. The issue here is the degree of alignment of one's personality with one's deep, authentic self.
"Magic seemed to me to be about "causing" change to conform to the will. How is this possible then?"
It took me years of living with Crowley's definition of magick, and writing an essay breaking it apart word for word, before someone pointed out to me that I'd defined every important word in it except cause. It then took me a few more years of mostly ignoring that before I realized that (in this context, as in many others), "cause" is a perfect synonym got "choose." Everything about ourselves and the world is in constant change, so there is no need (and probably no capacity) to cause change in the usual way of understanding those words. What we are doing is choosing change, and choosing particular changes. Magick is the science and art of choosing change that aligns us more deeply with (brings us more in conformity with) True Will.
"We could attain many of the things we are looking to use magic for by other means, or perhaps, we wouldn't need magic at all if the universe truly wanted us to have them. I am failing to see now the necessity of "magic" at all."
It's just a technique to whip us into the shape needed to fulfill our spiritual aspirations. Along the way, one learns some terribly important things about getting on with one's life.
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@gurugeorge said
"This is a great discussion that I meant at one time to respond to then other things intervened - apologies!"
Ditto.
"this kind of "everything affecting everything equally" is a bit breathless - purple even
"I would tend to agree. Does that make it false though?
"In fact, what you have is pockets of relatively independent determinism..."
It seems to me that this is a matter of perspective. Your description of pockets of determinism seems sound when one looks at it from within one of those self-created bubbles of time/space but, if one moves one's viewing apparatus farther out (both in space and, more importantly, time) the lines begin to blur. For instance: While it's true that GnoEma and !!%^plok don't seem to share any causal connection in a time sense that we humans can hold in our mind, if we work to extend our perception of the timeline to a universal scale, we start to see that there was a time, billions of years ago perhaps, when a carbon atom that currently resides in GnoEma's left shoulder was linked to an oxygen atom -- currently in !!%^plok's knee -- in the depths of a rock circling some star long since dead.
"So what?" you ask. "That doesn't mean there's any causal linkage between them now."
Perhaps. Perhaps not. Current experiments with Bell's Theorem are showing that a relationship does persist, no matter the distance, between two particles that were once in connection. But, even beyond that, there is the simple fact that that carbon atom and that oxygen atom persisted through the aeons, going through any sort of what we might romantically term "adventures" but which are, in reality, simply the necessary results of the Law of Attraction determining, with mathematical precision, when and how they would separate from the atoms they're currently bonded to and unite with others, trading electrons at every step. The entire history of their life-span (all of history, really) is an interwoven mesh of relationships, all of which are determined by natural law.
So what is it that separates what we call the "volition" of GnoEma and !!%^plok from that causal chain? Is "volition" part of a force that was waiting on the sidelines, somehow outside of reality, until cause/effect formed structures complex enough for it to inhabit? Is "volition" a necessary part of that cause/effect process that we just haven't developed fine enough instruments to witness yet? Is what we witness in teh chemical world and label "necessity" actually identical with something correctly labeled "choice"?
I don't necessarily have answers to these questions, but logical deduction keeps bringing me back to the solution that every process in all of Universe (including every process that is part of what I feel to be my consciousness) is a part of this cause/effect chain that is guided inflexibly by the Law of Attraction. The last time I brought up this conundrum on these boards, I was guided to PF Case's writings on The Chariot and found him saying much the same thing, though maybe without as much awareness of the weirdness of modern physics, and that helped me towards beginning to marry my logical deductions with the fiction that is "actively choosing" to perform the Great Work.
One thing that does keep me thinking about it, searching for something that is beyond what I am currently able to ponder, is that line from Liber L: "Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise."
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@Jason R said
"Nothing is "acquired", one can't say he can "work on himself, and attain genius" if he is pinned to the ground being what the greater has planned for him regardless."
I'd be careful of your wording here. While one can't say that he'll work on himself and attain genius, I would say it's certainly possible to work on oneself and discover genius. (Noting that this goes nowhere towards deciding whether this "work" is volitional or determined.)
"The work is nonsense if there is no true "from down here" control over ones decisions and "True Will." "
I think that probably depends on what is meant by "work". The ultimate goal of the Work, after all, is meant to be complete unity with the All/Not somewhere beyond Kether. What do you perceive that to mean if it's not the full and complete realization that you are All/Not and that I am All/Not and that All is All/Not? Since each piece of the All/Not needs to arrive back at the source by a different path (necessarily) each piece has its own "work" to do (perceived by us as volitional but, in actuality, necessary).
"If I have no real control over the hidden mechanics of forming my decisions then who do we blame or praise for progress or failure? "
Now there's a question worthy of deep meditation.
"Magic seemed to me to be about "causing" change to conform to the will. "
Not exactly. "Causing change in conformity with the will." This isn't about making things that you want, it's about following that necessary Law of Attraction, otherwise known as "Will". And, yeah, I feel your frustration on the whole personal volitional aspect. The best I've come up with is that that "factor infinite & unknown" is a thing that is a part of nature but that exists outside of our normal perceptions of the Laws of Nature and it is that factor that brings choice into the equation and causes what scientists would measure as perturbations of the cause/effect chain. But how it escapes it's own chains of cause/effect is beyond me at this point.
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We don't know the point of needing to discover, or why the whole set up leads to us needing to discover this "authentic" tendency etc (tw), do we?
I wonder what is so special about something, so called "authentic" anyway. Think about this a moment. Why would something we truly like or feel good about, or that was somehow "true" to our character, automatically be "right"? What is right? What is "good"? Many things historical figures accomplished, occurred by mistake, or would not have been possible without some character flaw, some wrong choice perhaps.
I am starting to ask the question, what is so wrong with imperfection and illusion? Most of what we see, and think is illusion, much of the personality is illusion. Yet, how many have accomplished great things with the most pronounced ego's and self delusions? How many actually find happiness in their lives based completely on a delusional perception not only of themselves, but of the world? Evangelicals, I'm looking at you!
Hell, what is happiness? Is that the end goal? Is that what makes us finding some mythical authentic set of traits so great? Maybe, what we need is simply the right delusions to spur us on, and make us confident, and more productive? What great wrong is committed if someone lives according to some "wrong" picture of themselves? Are we saying that nothing productive or important can arise from a person who is acting on bad information?
My point is, what if it is natural, after all, and human to be fooled by all sorts of things? What is our delusion, or one we unknowingly are handed, or even create for ourselves is just what we needed in some greater scheme of things?
Instead of worrying about what is "real" for us, or authentic to some secret true self etc., we instead look at what is, what we are handed, and what we need to do to change it. In other words, we don't say that the starving child in Africa is deprived of finding his true authentic choices, but rather, that child needs to understand his circumstances, and what he can do to change his circumstances period. If that entails fooling himself to gather self esteem and an inflated ego to motivate himself, so be it. If the would be Dr., hates being a Dr., and would rather be a Chef, maybe he should think again about what being a Chef may change in his life, and what that may lead to, instead of changing careers based upon some obscure fact it is his authentic want.
So many things to question. If we are all united in a greater, interconnected "thing", it would stand to reason that EVEN the "mistakes", the illusions we hold have value and worth, and a purpose. How many people in history tell this story? Something they loathed about themselves, or that held them back turned out to be the very thing that spurred them on to success. So, now, I can hear someone say, well those flaws were of course the very authentic aspects, or True Will!
Maybe, as the Book of the Law states, "Do what Thou Wilt, shall be the whole of the Law" is the whole thing. We simply be ourselves, and by that I mean, we simply follow what we are given, and what delusions we are handed, and can't escape! Illusions about ourselves we spend most of our time ignorant of ARE in fact our True Wills. After all, no matter what argument you have regarding this, one thing is for certain, those illusions brought you to the great work, or self mastery in the first place - or they didn't allow you to arrive at all.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
"Current experiments with Bell's Theorem are showing that a relationship does persist, no matter the distance, between two particles that were once in connection. "
Another belated reply!
Is the relationship deterministic though? I'm not as familiar with the physics as I ought to be, but from what I can gather, the relationship between atoms at the level of quantum entanglement is somewhat mysterious and not exactly "clockwork-causal" as per Laplace's historic formulation.
" But, even beyond that, there is the simple fact that that carbon atom and that oxygen atom persisted through the aeons, going through any sort of what we might romantically term "adventures" but which are, in reality, simply the necessary results of the Law of Attraction determining, with mathematical precision, when and how they would separate from the atoms they're currently bonded to and unite with others, trading electrons at every step. The entire history of their life-span (all of history, really) is an interwoven mesh of relationships, all of which are determined by natural law."
The "adventures" thing reminds me of that stuff about "atom's adventures" that AC talked about (in several places, recently I came across him using it in his Foyle's Luncheon speech). I must admit, I never really grokked that. Atoms aren't conscious (unless one is definitely plumping for pantheism or something like that). OTOH if it's being used figuratively, in the sense of "atoms of experience" or something like that, then maybe. But meh.
I do agree with the picture you're painting in that poetic sense, and in the mystical sense - ultimately, yes, it's like that. It's all just "one/my body" anyway. But at the level of everyday life, the choices this moist, social robot makes aren't determined, even though the machinery it makes the choices with is deterministic (but we've gone over that above). The confusion arises from the fact that our "folk sense" of what's going on is off (i.e. the choices aren't made by some ghost in the machine, but by the machine itself, and delivered to consciousness as a fait accompli, as a passing phenomenon, some time after the machine actually made them).
" So what is it that separates what we call the "volition" of GnoEma and !!%^plok from that causal chain? Is "volition" part of a force that was waiting on the sidelines, somehow outside of reality, until cause/effect formed structures complex enough for it to inhabit? Is "volition" a necessary part of that cause/effect process that we just haven't developed fine enough instruments to witness yet? Is what we witness in teh chemical world and label "necessity" actually identical with something correctly labeled "choice"? "
Again, I'd go to the distinction between language as an instrument of social co-ordination, and language as pertaining to subjective experience (I, consciousness). The problem is, these have been mixed up. Language as a social phenomenon posits a notional centre to what is in reality a "pocket determinism", actually a whole symphony of factors working together. But we "introject" that notional centre, and believe it's that that's making the choices, whereas it's the pocket-deterministic causal bundle, with its limited but nevertheless real ability to self-steer and navigate its way through the world. The notional centre ("centre of narrative gravity" as Dennett puts it) isn't problematic on its own, it's a useful "illusion" (like a cursor, or the notion of a centre of gravity for physical bodies), it's only problematic insofar as it's introjected and pasted over consciousness per se, our Hadit-centre, which is Reality experiencing Itself. (This being Avidya in the Advaitic sense - ignorance or covering of our true nature by a false idea of what we truly are as limited, separate, etc.)
"I don't necessarily have answers to these questions, but logical deduction keeps bringing me back to the solution that every process in all of Universe (including every process that is part of what I feel to be my consciousness) is a part of this cause/effect chain that is guided inflexibly by the Law of Attraction. The last time I brought up this conundrum on these boards, I was guided to PF Case's writings on The Chariot and found him saying much the same thing, though maybe without as much awareness of the weirdness of modern physics, and that helped me towards beginning to marry my logical deductions with the fiction that is "actively choosing" to perform the Great Work.
One thing that does keep me thinking about it, searching for something that is beyond what I am currently able to ponder, is that line from Liber L: "Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.""
Aye, that's the thing that keeps us from being trapped in insane rational loops and enables us to "jump out of the system".
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@Jason R said
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I am starting to ask the question, what is so wrong with imperfection and illusion? Most of what we see, and think is illusion, much of the personality is illusion. Yet, how many have accomplished great things with the most pronounced ego's and self delusions? How many actually find happiness in their lives based completely on a delusional perception not only of themselves, but of the world? Evangelicals, I'm looking at you! "Nothing - the Magician creates illusion because it's fun. The Fool trips over it because it's fun.
In a sense, the mystic is the bad guy, as he's spoiling God's (The Magician's/Fool's) fun by peeping behind the curtain. The mystic is the spoilsport
Seen rightly, phenomena, or "illusion", if you please, is celebratory, decorative, adventure, etc. "Seen rightly" means: seen from the perspective of being at home in one's skin (i.e.the Universe). While from the point of view of the Higher, the mystic is a spoilsport, from the point of view of the struggling worm, the mystic offers salvation from the illusion of the struggling worm thinking it's just a struggling worm and nothing else (i.e. not secretly also God).
But it's all just a phase we're going through.
sleep:waking::waking:samadhi
childhood:adulthood::adulthood:enlightenment
Something like that, anyway