Dharana Question.
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@RifRaf said
"Instead of focusing on something external, such as a Tattwa, would the practice still hold any weight if one was to attach all their concentration to a part of the body such as the nose or a finger, with feeling but little to no visualization?
I have a very hard time keeping a simple Yellow square in my mind without it flying around to different "planes", changing shapes, or multiplying, etc. But when I think about the tip of my nose and all my feeling is directed there it is a bit easier to hold in the mind with fewer breaks, or at least this is what my diary indicates."
YES, oh god yes (end orgasmic affirmation).
I think 'flow' could be a degree of dharana on the task at hand but Ive never experienced anything close to dhyana while playing sports, playing music, etc although ive definitely been 'in the flow.'
IAO131
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@Modes said
"A Kundalini yogi I know calls it running meditation. Kuniggety, could you explain how do you do your running? I.e. breathing, hand positions, running pace, anything else. I'm interested in it because It's like running pranayama. Sorry for the off topic."
Sorry for the late reply... I've been hellishly busy. That's the thing... it does feel like a form of meditation to me and that's why I was trying to place some sort of "name" to it. I'm normally running pretty hard when I do it... for me that's about 7mph sustained (that's my run speed... above that I start going into a sprint, ie I have to start breathing hard and will tire out really fast). I usually run holding my hands in front of me but at the same time I keep my muscles loose.
@Jim: Thanks for the reply. There is a strong degree of focus at first, hence my stab at saying dharana but that focus generally melts away into a withdrawal. I've done plenty of dharana exercises with tattwas and candle flames and I know it seems different, but I'm having troubles assigning names to the experiences in running.
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@kuniggety said
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@Modes said
"A Kundalini yogi I know calls it running meditation. Kuniggety, could you explain how do you do your running? I.e. breathing, hand positions, running pace, anything else. I'm interested in it because It's like running pranayama. Sorry for the off topic."Sorry for the late reply... I've been hellishly busy. That's the thing... it does feel like a form of meditation to me and that's why I was trying to place some sort of "name" to it. I'm normally running pretty hard when I do it... for me that's about 7mph sustained (that's my run speed... above that I start going into a sprint, ie I have to start breathing hard and will tire out really fast). I usually run holding my hands in front of me but at the same time I keep my muscles loose.
@Jim: Thanks for the reply. There is a strong degree of focus at first, hence my stab at saying dharana but that focus generally melts away into a withdrawal. I've done plenty of dharana exercises with tattwas and candle flames and I know it seems different, but I'm having troubles assigning names to the experiences in running."
Certain positive psychologists call it 'flow' after someone name Mikhail Cz(something something, I can never spell his name right and I wont try)
IAO131
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On a sidenote, try the Amithaba Buddha mudra Japanese version. I use it for Dharana. It kicks ass!
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@RifRaf said
"Instead of focusing on something external, such as a Tattwa, would the practice still hold any weight if one was to attach all their concentration to a part of the body such as the nose or a finger, with feeling but little to no visualization?"
If I'm not mistaken, Gurdjieff advocated just such a practice ...IIRC, he called it wakefulness. The practice involved a maintained conscious awareness of any given body part - the object of which was to escape Sleep or automatic consciousness.
729
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@RifRaf said
"Just for the sake of getting my definitions correct, is concentrating upon the Ajna Chakra considered Pratyahara or Dharana? By the way Crowley wrote of this it seemed more like Dharana, and following the thoughts was Pratyahara, "
If all you are doing is persistently concentrating on it, then that's dharana.
"but I was thrown off a bit when I read the following:
"another device that is used to aid in the development of Pratyahara is to concentrate on the point between the eyebrows. This location is known as Ajna Chakra or the third eye."
"I suspect what is being said here is that this concentration will start a stream of phenomena - thoughts, images, sensations - the attention to which is a method of pratyahara.
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@RifRaf said
"Instead of focusing on something external, such as a Tattwa, would the practice still hold any weight if one was to attach all their concentration to a part of the body such as the nose or a finger, with feeling but little to no visualization?
I have a very hard time keeping a simple Yellow square in my mind without it flying around to different "planes", changing shapes, or multiplying, etc. But when I think about the tip of my nose and all my feeling is directed there it is a bit easier to hold in the mind with fewer breaks, or at least this is what my diary indicates."
Holy crap yes.
Certain hindus counsel to meditate on certain areas of the body (the chakras). Certain buddhists counsel to meditate on the breath or body part.
The yellow square meditation functions off of two skills: concentration AND visualization. The former is not dependent on the latter although the latter is somewhat dependent on the former.
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IAO131 -
Dharana. My question is this, how in the hell does one sit down in asana and actually go about doing this as set down in Liber E. I find this practice highly infuriating, but mainly because I fond the idea of noting the nature and frequency of each break as highly distracting especially when the breaks are so frequent it seems asinine to even note them! I've also noticed that Liber E skips over Pratyahara completely! Should I at least try to gain some ability with Pratyahara?
When I'am simply witting in my asana and practicing rhythmic breathing I tend to focus my thoughts on the breath cycle, and when a distraction or a wandering thought comes up, I simply and gently return to focusing on my breath. I practice this in the morning and I've become fairly proficient about quieting my mind in this manner. I do this in the morning. Recently, in the evenngs, after spending a few moments calming and quieting my mind with breathing, I attempt to go about practicing Dharana as laid out in Liber E, but as soon as I begin my mind is like a shit storm, and I can't even concentrate on the subject for the smallest fraction of a second!
Any advice for getting started?I'd also like to note that at this time, I haven't the least interest in practicing Raja Yoga in full, I would really just like to increase my ability to focus my mind for purposes of practical meditation and ceremonial magick.
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@AEternitas1 said
"Dharana. My question is this, how in the hell does one sit down in asana and actually go about doing this as set down in Liber E. I find this practice highly infuriating, but mainly because I fond the idea of noting the nature and frequency of each break as highly distracting especially when the breaks are so frequent it seems asinine to even note them! "
I'm guessing you're being too complex in your entries. The main thing you need to track while doing the practice is the total number of breaks in a given time frame, and you can do this in several ways - perhaps the easiest is with rosary beads where your finger slips (almost unconsciously) one more bead whenever you register a break.
After you are done, and noting "175 breaks in two minutes" (or whatever
), you can then summarize from memory the general types of breaks that occurred. ("Mostly ruminating at the beginning about the fight last night, and couldn't get that song to stop looping through my brain. Near the end, breaks were mostly flashing lights, mostly in the blue-green range." Or whatever.)Also BTW you can do a preliminary level of practice in which you aren't counting. It just keeps disturbing practice if you're doubling the number of breaks by your reactions to every break! Work until you can write, "Tonight I finally spent more time uninterruptedly meditating that with my mind wondering. If this keeps up a couple of more days, I'll start counting the breaks. Yippee!!"
"I've also noticed that Liber E skips over Pratyahara completely! Should I at least try to gain some ability with Pratyahara?"
Oh sure. Why not? <g> Remember that the A.'.A.'. testing on that is not until Dominus Liminis, which is probably why it isn't included in preliminary exercises. (And here, language gets in the way a bit. "Dharana" isn't used in Liber E in the sense of "one of the three aspects of samyama." It's used as a method, really just a synonym for "concentration exercise." In this sense, it doesn't come after pratyahara - dharana as the sixth limb of yoga means the condition of "being concentrated," rather than "doing concentration exercises.")
"I'd also like to note that at this time, I haven't the least interest in practicing Raja Yoga in full, I would really just like to increase my ability to focus my mind for purposes of practical meditation and ceremonial magick."
Get a watch with a sweep second hand. Require of yourself one thing only: That you will keep your attention on the second hand. Start paying attention when it crosses 12 and, when you look up and remember that you were supposed to be watching the second hand <g>, you will have a visual memory of where it last was, and you can write, "attention broke after 12 seconds," or whatever. When you get to a full minute without withdrawing your attention from the second hand, you're ready for something more.
Take the Tarot cards in sequence, Fool through Universe, and spend three days on each (taking one day of the week off). Sit and simply actively look at the card, keeping your attention on it. Don't worry about intruding thoughts, but do monitor whether your thoughts wander too far away from ideas immediately triggered by the card ("dog on a leash" theory). When you can stay "settled into" having your attention on the card for 5 minutes, and in no case longer than 10 minutes, you're ready for some more serious concentration exercises.
Don't confuse visualization practices with concentration exercises. It's just as good a concentration exercise to cut out a red triangle and set it on black cloth in front of you, and keep your attention on it, as it is to visualize the red triangle. It's just that the latter is also a visualization exercise. If that part is tough, don't sabotage your concentration practice with doing two things at once.
Recognize the difference between "keeping my mind on X" vs. "not having any thought but X come into my mind." The latter isn't really so bad, as long as you continue to keep your mind where you want it. (In fact, the mind is perfectly capable of thinking multiple thoughts simultaneously. Years ago, I stopped counting after I identified 16 different conversations weaving together around each other while I was simply observing my breath.) You can worry about removing unwanted thought later; first, learn to think the thing you choose to think. (It's better to suppress unwanted and intrusive thoughts by getting deeper into wanted and chosen thoughts, instead of trying to shove them down.)
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Wow. That is a crazy-good post
Thats the best I can do 
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.