John St. John/Asana

Vod-Vil

Hello All,
I have been reading the forums for a few months and decided to sign up today.

I have some questions about John St. John.

Reading through the book I find these entries:

3.36 Asana hurts badly
12.18 Asana is frightfully painful
10.18 Asana got painful,like a worm I gave up
9.0 Asana very painful again
10.22 Can't get steady and easy at all!Will try Hanged Man again

It is my understanding that this was Crowley's 6=5 self initiation.

Question 1-Isn't asana supposed to be mastered during the Zelator grade.Why was Crowley experiencing so much pain during asana?

Question 2-It appears that Crowley kept falling back on the Hanged Man posture.In the eight lectures on yoga he warns the aspirant against switching asana postures.Do you guys use multiple asanas for different situations or is it better to stick with one asana.

Question 3-Does the pain felt during asana go away because the ankles and legs get stretched out,or is the pain always there but the brain gets trained to block out the sensations.

I just started to read and practice the crowley material,so forgive me if I posted in the wrong section or sound dumb.

Hope to learn from you all.

kuniggety

I'm going to try and answer all three question of yours:

Asana isn't "mastered" in the Zelator grade. One is supposed to have "complete success", as stated in One Star in Sight. Liber 185 describes this complete success as perfectly steady and easy, with the "chosen posture".
My opinion is whatever strikes you as correct. If using one aids you, do it. If you feel a certain posture will add to a certain meditation, then use it.
A little of both.

Techpriest

Asana, is an interesting topic.
Question-3
A:I think that once your mind has been given domination over the inner workings of the body and made them as still as can be, you no longer experience pain because of the complete realization of the continuity of the practice. Any weaker subject will submit with time to it's more skilled master. It is very clear in Book 4 however, that this quieting of pain is possible through the strength of realization.

Jim Eshelman

@Vod-Vil said

"Question 1-Isn't asana supposed to be mastered during the Zelator grade. Why was Crowley experiencing so much pain during asana?"

During Neophyte, before Zelator, yes. But one only has to master it to the point of passing the examination. What if someone then didn't ever do it again for the intervening years? One tends to be out of practice.

In Crowley's case, he wasn't that many years out of practice, but was at least someone what out of practice.

A separate point is that the A.'.A.'. system hadn't been formulated by that point - so, though he had previously mastered this, the standard didn't necessarily apply.

A third point is that, even when one is fully in practice, there are sometimes bad days. (The ability to settle into the position has something to do with state of mind etc.)

"Question 2-It appears that Crowley kept falling back on the Hanged Man posture. In the eight lectures on yoga he warns the aspirant against switching asana postures. Do you guys use multiple asanas for different situations or is it better to stick with one asana."

In learning to master one for the 1=10 task, after a bit of initial experimentation one should probably settle into one specific posture for the sake of mastering it. (This doesn't mean that one shouldn't move into other positions at other times. There's no moratorium on positions!)

But one may learn (before or after, or even during) different postures for different purposes. In Temple of Thelema, we initially teach three different postures used for different kinds of practices.

"Question 3-Does the pain felt during asana go away because the ankles and legs get stretched out,or is the pain always there but the brain gets trained to block out the sensations."

Something like both of those are true. One does get physically better able to do it, and the mind enters a different state that isn't so much blocking the pain as existing outside of it. (That's a bad explanation but the best you'll get out of me tonight.) There are even times when there is a huge endorphin release connected with a very lengthy holding of a position - it's a quite distinctive and unique experience.

kuniggety

Jim, I have your book, the The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'. where it details the tasks of the grades. Where in there does it say that asana is mastered for Neophyte? It talks about it in the Zelator section...

Second thing: If it's okay to publish it here, which three asana are initially taught in the ToT and why?

Jim Eshelman

@kuniggety said

"Jim, I have your book, the The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'. where it details the tasks of the grades. Where in there does it say that asana is mastered for Neophyte? It talks about it in the Zelator section..."

Doh! You're right. Brain fart.

Anchorite

Do What Thou Wilt Shall be the Whole of the Law.

Little story of what occurred two days ago in my practice.
I've been doing asana for the last 3 months. God position. I had managed over an hour and thought to myself 'I'm doing pretty well here' - and added some pranayama. Got up to 10, in hold 10, exhale 20, hold ten.
Then it all went to hell.
Increasing even a second caused a sharp pain in my back which was a surprise since the breath previous was easier than I could have ever imagined, but I could not even return to the former pattern as my lungs seemed to lose capacity. So why the sudden change?
At instinct I thought of the airway in the throat and tried to open it up more by tilting my neck downwards but that just caused more pain. Then it hit me - my spine simply wasn't straight. Id been sitting in a soft backed chair, thinking it was an easy way to enter this painful practice and it seems I've really paid for the short cut.
So the last two days, dragon asana with a book balanced on my head, pathologically rechecking my spine alignment.
Going through the pain barrier all over again is good for my will right?
Sighs..
Has anyone else had a do'h moment like this, so maybe I don't feel so daft?
( I know this doesn't respond to the original post much, I just didn't see the point in starting another thread)

kuniggety

@Jim Eshelman said

"
Doh! You're right. Brain fart."

I had thought that I had missed something. It was like, hm....

"I'd rather not answer that in public."

Alright, thanks. I thought I'd ask

Jim Eshelman

@kuniggety said

"If it's okay to publish it here, which three asana are initially taught in the ToT and why?"

I decided to give a general answer to this.

There are three basic postures - One standing, one sitting, and one prone. Different practices (different rituals, meditations, etc.) benefit more from one or the other of these.

luxinhominefactum

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

great stuff in here, great stuff

as far as eight lectures on yoga go, it's important to remember that was written years after john st. john. give the man a chance to change, learn and grow!

Love is the law, love under will

nashimiron

He also complains about the cold in John St John. Maybe he wasn't warming up his muscles before the asana. I've found even just using a cross legged sitting asana it helps to stretch the legs a bit to get the muscles warmed up slightly.

What asana was he using anyway? Some of them are probably easier with a few weeks basic stretching excercises done beforehand to make the limbs more supple.

Vod-Vil

On the cover of eight lectures it appears he is using the thunderbolt.
On page 639 of the big blue book there is someone performing pranayama in the thunderbolt position.Is that Crowley?