Empress and Emperor

Tinman

Are the figures of the Empress and Emperor rejecting the animals which they face away from?

ie. The Emperor turning away from the Lamb of Christ and towards the shield
ie. The Empress turning away from the Pelican (represents the passion of christ and eucharist?) and towards the shield

Do the shields represent the new aeon and the animals the old?

What's being said here?

Jim Eshelman

No.

Those animals - the ram for Aries, the Pelican and all its symbolism for The Empress - are among the most defining of the cards.

I suppose the animals are shown as their companions.

Scarecrow

hmm.... looks lambish to me Jim, and a bit menacing to boot; the lower end of the master/slave relationship

"“The card represents a crowned male figure, with imperial vestments and regalia. He is seated upon the throne whose capitals are
the heads of the Himalayan wild ram, since Aries means a Ram. At
his feet, couchant, is the Lamb and Flag, to confirm this attribution
on the lower plane; for the ram, by nature, is a wild and courageous
animal, lonely in lonely places, whereas when tamed and made to
lie down in green pastures, nothing is left but the docile, cowardly,
gregarious and succulent beast. This is the theory of government.“"

plus remember his vision of the Wheel:

"“The figures on the wheel are darker than the wheel itself; in fact,
they are stains upon the purity of the wheel, and for that reason, and
because of the whirling of the wheel, I cannot see them. But at the top
seems to be the Lamb and Flag, such as one sees on some Christian
medals, and one of the lower things is a wolf, and the other a raven.
The Lamb and Flag symbol is much brighter than the other two. It
keeps on growing brighter, until now it is brighter than the wheel
itself, and occupies more space than it did.

“It speaks: I am the greatest of the deceivers, for my purity and
innocence shall seduce the pure and innocent, who but for me should
come to the centre of the wheel. The wolf betrayeth only the greedy
and the treacherous; the raven betrayeth only the melancholy and
the dishonest. But I am he of whom it is written: He shall deceive
the very elect.""

But you know this... what are you holding back? Or what aren't you taking the time to explain?

Jim Eshelman

@Scarecrow said

"But you know this... what are you holding back? Or what aren't you taking the time to explain?"

Neither. I think you're making it too complicated. Tarot cards are simple things, and I'm not overly concerned with exact artistic fine points.

When I've taught Tarot classes, I've had students make up their own decks with no pictures, just index cards with two or three pieces of information on each. For The Emperor, you need to get Tzaddi, Aries, the Natural Consciousness, and Yesod opening to Netzach - the rest is just mental keying to feed the ideas arising from these points.

The primary purpose of the lamb is to reflect Aries, which includes the idea of the setting Sun, etc., and all the cognate ideas. Everything else is glamour.

Tinman

I agree that the tarot cards can represent "simple" ideas... although trying to explain exactly what "Tzaddi+Aries+Natural Consciousness+Yesod->Netzach" mean... understanding that... there are a lot of nuances that are not so simple.

I suppose it's a taurian tendency towards stubborness, or a drive to think for myself and question authority (in a respectful and engaging manner hopefully since it's your "house" here)... but I can't get away from the fact that on his very own deck of cards, AC has gone and put some very christian symbols and in both instances they seem to be somewhat placed "in the dark" (ie. the lamb out of the light, and the pelican with the lower moon):

The Agnus Dei (and not a lamb, though I agree it reflects an aspect of Aries) has definite Christian connotations and Crowley was doing his best to throw them, and their religion, to the lions...

From wiki-

"Agnus Dei is a Latin term meaning Lamb of God, and was originally used to refer to Jesus Christ in his role of the perfect sacrificial offering that atones for the sins of humanity in Christian theology, harkening back to ancient Jewish Temple sacrifices."

The Pelican feeding it's young on the Empress card:

From wiki-

"In medieval Europe, the pelican was thought to be particularly attentive to her young, to the point of providing her own blood when no other food was available. As a result, the pelican became a symbol of the Passion of Jesus and of the Eucharist. It also became a symbol in bestiaries for self-sacrifice, and was used in heraldry ("a pelican in her piety" or "a pelican vulning (wounding) herself"). Another version of this is that the pelican used to kill its young and then resurrect them with its blood, this being analogous to the sacrifice of Jesus."

Again we have another christian symbol.

Now I'm willing to explore these symbols as meaning something "other" or "deeper" than the christian meaning...

I'm not adept at alchemy or it's language but I'm trying to get there specifically because I don't believe that the symbols on the card are merely "artistic fine points" or "glamour", but communicate a definite idea that was intended to be part and parcel of the card's makeup.

From www.alchemywebsite.com/animal.html

"
The reddening or formation of the Red Stone was pictured through the symbol of the Pelican. The white pelican bird with its long bill reaching down over its breast, was in medieval times mistakenly observed piercing its breast with its bill and feeding its young on its own blood. What actually happens is that the bird regurgitates food it has caught earlier and its young feed on this ground up fish, bits of which fall onto the breast of the pelican and it appears as if its breast is bleeding. This myth of the sacrificial act of the Pelican in feeding its young on its own blood, was more powerful than the prosaic reality and during medieval times the Pelican became a symbol for ChristÕs sacrifice of his blood. Alchemists also took this symbol aboard and readily incorporated it into their symbolic menagerie.

The reddening marked the formation of the Red Tincture, which transformed the masculine forces of the soul, ennobled them, and brought them into a new harmony and was often symbolised by the appearance of a Red King in the flask. In our inner work, we begin to possess the red tincture when we have entered on the task of transforming the raw energies of the masculine component of our souls, sometimes pictured by the alchemists as a knight brandishing a sword, into a more creative force.
"

The reddening marked the formation of the Red Tincture... often symbolised by the appearance of the Red King... which is the next card in the deck... or maybe now I'm stretching it too far...

There is also mention of the fifth OTO degree in reference to fully understanding the Pelican... yet another reason I don't see these bits and pieces as "artistic fine points" devoid of interesting and perhaps even enlightening nuances to the simpler meaning of the card. I can't say that I know what's in the fifth degree that is communicated about the Pelican but if it's an act of stomping out the past... I'd say we're not just dealing with the formula that you gave:

"For The Emperor, you need to get Tzaddi, Aries, the Natural Consciousness, and Yesod opening to Netzach"

But we're dealing with:

Book of Thoth, pg 24

"From the foregoing it will be clear that the Tarot illustrates, first of all, the Tree of Life in its universal aspect, and secondly, the particular comment illustrating that phase of the Tree of Life which is of peculiar interest to those persons charged with the guardianship of the human race at the particular moment of the production of any given authorised pack."