Asking for proof from the HGA
-
93 all.
Are there any good ways to determine whether or not one is on the right track in preparing for Initiation?
In other words: I know I'm not yet ready for Initiation, but I'm trying to prepare myself to become ready. I'm doing this alone, more or less. I'm growing up and making progress, I think, and every once in awhile (usually in bursts) I direct a request in the general direction of the HGA: how do I know that I'm not straying? How should I know I am indeed praying and aspiring in the right direction? Can I have a sign?
I usually ask for a specific but doubtful thing to happen, and, honestly, it's usually something that would benefit me, according to my ego's perspective. An example: I thought I had a specific ailment awhile back, the signs and symptoms were very close to it, and I had been exposed to it. I asked for a sign that I wasn't making a mistake in my life choices, and received intuitive information that proved correct against the apparent odds.
I don't know if this was from a somewhat more grounded aspect of my psyche, or from my HGA. Things like this have happened a lot. My "signs" usually involve being protected from something I perceive as bad, at the last minute. I usually am overwhelmed by something and am afraid that I have brought it on myself by avoiding the Path at some point, and I ask for clarification that my trials are those of perseverance and not of discernment - that I should stick it out rather than get out.
I know this isn't the best way I could go about asking for signs, but I don't really know any other way right now.
How can I know the difference between slow and painful progress in the right direction and self-destructive movement in the wrong direction? A lot of life choices that I've made that I am 93% sure are correct look self-destructive on the surface (more like "self-limiting" I suppose).
-
Until we have communion with the HGA, there is no way to tell. None.
It's all trial and error - and that trial and error is the engine that drives our accelerated growth in a clear Truth Sense.
Now that I've seen your horoscope, I can easily say that one of your distinctive characdteristics - possibly your most important hurdle - is that you place unreasonable standards and expectations on yourself.
If you tell me that you're not ready for initiation (you stated it with keen certainty), then I take your word for it - this has to come from within. You're the only one who can know. But I can tell you as a general instruction that if you're basing this on objective factors in your life, then that's the wrong way to go about it. If you wait for your life to be together or right etc. then you'll be waiting a long time. It's all a spiral.
The only Ipsissimus that I know of in the history of the world had a personality that continued to struggle with its own dynamics and functional life issues until the day his body died.
-
Yes.
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"Until we have communion with the HGA, there is no way to tell. None.
It's all trial and error - and that trial and error is the engine that drives our accelerated growth in a clear Truth Sense.
Now that I've seen your horoscope, I can easily say that one of your distinctive characdteristics - possibly your most important hurdle - is that you place unreasonable standards and expectations on yourself.
If you tell me that you're not ready for initiation (you stated it with keen certainty), then I take your word for it - this has to come from within. You're the only one who can know. But I can tell you as a general instruction that if you're basing this on objective factors in your life, then that's the wrong way to go about it. If you wait for your life to be together or right etc. then you'll be waiting a long time. It's all a spiral.
The only Ipsissimus that I know of in the history of the world had a personality that continued to struggle with its own dynamics and functional life issues until the day his body died."
First of all, thank you; this is a truly helpful post, Jim, and this is even in light of your other tremendously helpful pieces of advice. I agree with your statement that I place unreasonable expectations on myself.
I just feel like, to be quite honest, I am not a very emotionally-stable person. I have a history with depression, anxiety, and, up until a time in the recent past, suicidal ideation (which more aesthetic, an emotional escape route, than anything else. It was the promise that I could forsake anything if I chose to, that none of it ultimately mattered to me. I've never attempted it). I combat psychological dissociation most of my aware life (even in dreams, which are usually non-vivid and consist of symbolism of things that I'm anxious about), and I'm pretty sure it is a response to anxiety. I feel like I have undue difficulty living a profane life that others don't seem to have this kind of difficulty with. I don't mean to be overly honest or seek sympathy, but since we're on this topic, I figure I might as well give a more complete (but, of course, biased) view of the story.
My reasoning thus far has been: if I already struggle living a profane life, how could I ever transcend it? If I'm not a master of what I'm already doing, why should I try to take it to the next step? (You made a comment awhile ago about one being a "past master" - mastering something AFTER one moves on - but it's hard for me to justify taking an approach like that with this situation. Maybe I'm wrong.)
I know that there will never be a "right time" to Initiate by my standards - they're too high and have to be adjusted. But at the same time, I don't really have a better standard to go by - I don't know what is right for me as a unique individual right now, nor how to answer that question. (Perhaps just trial and error, as you stated.)
I want to Initiate at some point but I see no reason to do it now versus at some arbitrary point in the future. (i.e. If I were to complete a request for consideration and hand it in to the ToT in NY, I would feel like it's too early - but I suspect that that feeling would be present at any point during my life if I attempted it.)
(And for the record, I do plan on seeking psychological aid to help me combat my emotional problems, but right now I don't have the time nor the money.)
Is it improbable to successfully Initiate with a history like this, and moreover, at such a young age (comparatively speaking)?
-
@Vlad said
"Is there knowledge as to when he proclaimed the stage?"
He didn't proclaim the stage. An Ipsissimus is prohibited from saying anything at all about having the grade (after the point of taking the obligation before a single witness).
But it was in the late '20s. His sparse diary of the time survives. Maybe '25 or '27?
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@Vlad said
"Is there knowledge as to when he proclaimed the stage?"He didn't proclaim the stage. An Ipsissimus is prohibited from saying anything at all about having the grade (after the point of taking the obligation before a single witness).
But it was in the late '20s. His sparse diary of the time survives. Maybe '25 or '27?"
At the very end of Liber Samekh, where Crowley is testifying to what his Angel had done for him, he writes, "Also He made me a Magus .... Yea, he wrought also in me a Work of Wonder beyond this, but in this matter I am sworn to hold my peace." So as far as not saying anything at all about the attainment, Crowley obeyed the letter but not the spirit. (Thus reinforcing the point that he continued to struggle with the dynamics of his personality
) -
@Ash said
"I just feel like, to be quite honest, I am not a very emotionally-stable person. I have a history with depression, anxiety, and, up until a time in the recent past, suicidal ideation (which more aesthetic, an emotional escape route, than anything else. It was the promise that I could forsake anything if I chose to, that none of it ultimately mattered to me. I've never attempted it)."
Moon exactly square Neptune and Saturn is very depression prone. It's more complicated than that - the tendency comes from very legitimate, positve, competing characteristics - but that's the bottom line. With a Virgo Moon it runs a further risk of compromising the logic faculty leading to psychosis, but this isn't standard. "Standard" for this aspect cluster would be depression and morbid self-revulsion and psychological pain until one discovers the real causes within oneself and owns certain (probably unpopular) truths about oneself - unique to each person.
(Please only wear the above shoe if it fits.)
Furthermore, Sagittarius' "favorite bad feeling" is "not good enough." This comes from a sincere sense of what real aristoracy, achievement, and cultural elegance should be, and a frustration anytime these are seen to fall short - whether within oneself or others. Several things spin off of these. But it is useful to see the trait of responding to sublimely, divinely high standards and to unreasonably hold oneself to standards higher than one can possibly (presently) meet. After a while, it may just feel comortable wallowing in the familiar pain of inadequacy. (If one can't be the best, one can at least by the VERY MOST inadequate!) <g>
So... give yourself a break. (See the essay called "Give Yourself a Break" by Frater Yod in some early issue of Black Pearl.
"My reasoning thus far has been: if I already struggle living a profane life, how could I ever transcend it?"
"If I already struggle trying to swim and breathe underwater, how could I possibly survive on dry land?!"
"If I'm not a master of what I'm already doing, why should I try to take it to the next step?"
"If I'm not a master of dancing, why should I try pole vaulting?"
"Is it improbable to successfully Initiate with a history like this, and moreover, at such a young age (comparatively speaking)?"
We'd want to look at two issues: (1) Are you so 'close to the edge' that a significant stirring of your psyche and bringing your major personal lies (BS) to the surface would destabilize you? - If so, get medical attention first. (2) Is your life sufficiently organized that you're likely to be able to successfully undertake and complete the assigned work?
-
Some of your comments were useful for me to reflect on, Ash. I can certainly empathize with your quandary as I've been there myself. Clearly Jim is correct in my opinion. Forgive the paraphrase, but if you wait to take the first step until you feel you're "ready," whatever that means, you'll always stand still. All the perfections of character in the world don't replace a burning heart.
"He that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is filthy shall be filthy still. Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are, & not other." - AL II 57-58
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"
(Please only wear the above shoe if it fits.)"It fits so well I could've sworn I was already wearing it. Wait...
@Jim Eshelman said
" Furthermore, Sagittarius' "favorite bad feeling" is "not good enough." This comes from a sincere sense of what real aristoracy, achievement, and cultural elegance should be, and a frustration anytime these are seen to fall short - whether within oneself or others. Several things spin off of these. But it is useful to see the trait of responding to sublimely, divinely high standards and to unreasonably hold oneself to standards higher than one can possibly (presently) meet. After a while, it may just feel comortable wallowing in the familiar pain of inadequacy. (If one can't be the best, one can at least by the VERY MOST inadequate!) <g>"
"Wallowing" is a very good word to describe most of my teenage life and is an ever-present temptation now. Again, the shoe here fits snugly.
@Jim Eshelman said
"
So... give yourself a break. (See the essay called "Give Yourself a Break" by Frater Yod in some early issue of Black Pearl."I shall do this.
@Jim Eshelman said
"
"My reasoning thus far has been: if I already struggle living a profane life, how could I ever transcend it?"
"If I already struggle trying to swim and breathe underwater, how could I possibly survive on dry land?!"
"If I'm not a master of what I'm already doing, why should I try to take it to the next step?"
"If I'm not a master of dancing, why should I try pole vaulting?"
"Got it
@Jim Eshelman said
"(1) Are you so 'close to the edge' that a significant stirring of your psyche and bringing your major personal lies (BS) to the surface would destabilize you? - If so, get medical attention first. (2) Is your life sufficiently organized that you're likely to be able to successfully undertake and complete the assigned work?"
- I've been "so close to the edge" for so long that I think I've already stirred almost everything in there up to the surface. A habit of mine is refusing to let things settle in there, so a good chunk of the contents of my psyche (I know it can't be everything) is already stirred up. As stated, I don't think I've ever really been stable. feel stable.]
- At the moment, I don't think so. I intend to fix this, although, sadly, I think it will have to wait until after I graduate college [I'm a junior, so this isn't really that long.]
Thank you for the time spent on that fantastic response, Jim. I will be turning all of this over in my head for quite some time.
[If anyone has anything to add, or Jim, if you have more you want to say, feel free - I am never one to ignore someone's advice or interpretation.]
@Grabarkiewctz said
"Some of your comments were useful for me to reflect on, Ash. I can certainly empathize with your quandary as I've been there myself. Clearly Jim is correct in my opinion. Forgive the paraphrase, but if you wait to take the first step until you feel you're "ready," whatever that means, you'll always stand still. All the perfections of character in the world don't replace a burning heart.
"He that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is filthy shall be filthy still. Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are, & not other." - AL II 57-58"
I agree with you as well. The "stop waiting! You're never gonna 'feel ready!'" advice is something I've heard before and I'm beginning to consider more seriously.
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@Vlad said
"Is there knowledge as to when he proclaimed the stage?"He didn't proclaim the stage. An Ipsissimus is prohibited from saying anything at all about having the grade (after the point of taking the obligation before a single witness).
But it was in the late '20s. His sparse diary of the time survives. Maybe '25 or '27?"
Yep I know. I should've used claim or such, bad english. I won't use the word attain, because I remain reserved about the claim. It's possible, because he does have alot of influence in this world. -
@Jim Eshelman said
"Moon exactly square Neptune and Saturn is very depression prone. It's more complicated than that - the tendency comes from very legitimate, positve, competing characteristics - but that's the bottom line. With a Virgo Moon it runs a further risk of compromising the logic faculty leading to psychosis, but this isn't standard. "Standard" for this aspect cluster would be depression and morbid self-revulsion and psychological pain until one discovers the real causes within oneself and owns certain (probably unpopular) truths about oneself - unique to each person.
(Please only wear the above shoe if it fits.)
Furthermore, Sagittarius' "favorite bad feeling" is "not good enough." This comes from a sincere sense of what real aristoracy, achievement, and cultural elegance should be, and a frustration anytime these are seen to fall short - whether within oneself or others. Several things spin off of these. But it is useful to see the trait of responding to sublimely, divinely high standards and to unreasonably hold oneself to standards higher than one can possibly (presently) meet. After a while, it may just feel comortable wallowing in the familiar pain of inadequacy. (If one can't be the best, one can at least by the VERY MOST inadequate!) <g>"
I have a Virgo Moon square (but not partile) Neptune and Uranus (both in Sagittarius). Would that have similar effects to what you described above? I have a feeling that they'd balance each other out.
Though with me it would definitely be a dynamic balance, like a rip-roarin' sine wave. I tend to let the two of 'em fight it out.