Self-Initiation
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"Changed your mind about trying another lineage?
If you're still referring to A.'.A.'. context: take the Oath. That's it: one time only deal, no turning back and you're on your own."
Nono, I contacted the lineage you showed. Haven't heard anything back yet.
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Well, obviously with the A.'.A.'..
But if I don't get in (which would be total BS), then I'm gonna do everything I can to get to the same pinnacle of spiritual experience, knowledge, and power that every other mage got to before me, CAUSE I'M A MAGICIAN TIL I DIE.I've had my mind read word for word!
I've done hydrokinesis with my own hands!
I have been through terrifying, reality-bending ordeals!
If a TINY, TINY BIT is possible, than ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. And I better be able to do it, too!And, damnit! For the evolution of the human race, EVERYONE ELSE NEEDS TO LEARN THIS STUFF TOO.
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I'm going to speak honestly here: as much as you might want to hear and people might want to claim that self-initiation is just the same as formal initiation, it isn't.
Self-initiation for most people who attempt it with sincerity is a kind of self-dedication; it can certainly be useful!
It can be a very important thing for you to do.But it is not really the same as receiving an initiation.
BUT, here's the other side of the honesty coin: from all my experience, when you talk about receiving formal initiation there are really all kinds of sources for it!
The experience of initiation does not belong to a single school; and fundamentally, from all I've seen it doesn't not seem to actually matter whether you get initiated in one of the various claimants of the OTO, or one of those groups of the A.'.A.'. who perform initiation rituals, or from the freemasons, or from various other western or eastern spiritual schools.
It seems that the experience of formal initiation, as long as its into some kind of mystery-school, ends up working just the same.93!
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Every aspirant (whether pro-self-initiation or anti-self-initiation, or indifferent) should remember that their sole business is the attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. If they get there, it doesn't matter how they did it, if they passed through an initiation ritual or not — by definition they're already "better" than any initiate bellow Tifereth in Briah.
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@Swamiji said
"I'm going to speak honestly here: as much as you might want to hear and people might want to claim that self-initiation is just the same as formal initiation, it isn't.
Self-initiation for most people who attempt it with sincerity is a kind of self-dedication; it can certainly be useful!
It can be a very important thing for you to do.But it is not really the same as receiving an initiation.
BUT, here's the other side of the honesty coin: from all my experience, when you talk about receiving formal initiation there are really all kinds of sources for it!
The experience of initiation does not belong to a single school; and fundamentally, from all I've seen it doesn't not seem to actually matter whether you get initiated in one of the various claimants of the OTO, or one of those groups of the A.'.A.'. who perform initiation rituals, or from the freemasons, or from various other western or eastern spiritual schools.
It seems that the experience of formal initiation, as long as its into some kind of mystery-school, ends up working just the same.93!"
excellent post.
I agree.
formal initiation is more powerful because of the experience of Other (in the form of another human being, a group, or Order) with whom one interacts.@Uni_Verse said
"You have to initiate your self before anyone else can..."
maybe a better way to say it would be: the Angel calls you and guides you. you have to be able to recognize/hear this call at least on some level (be it a' hint', feeling, intuition, dream, or Intuition....) in order to begin to consciously follow it.
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Assuming that by "initiation" you're talking about Thelemic attainment -- and not just being inducted into a group, like a frat -- all initiation is self initiation.
Even if you were to join a group, you have to do all of the work, ultimately on your own. Remember that the goal is gaining insight into yourself. The raw material you're working with, after all, is your observations of your self, which no one but you can do.
There's very little a group can add to that, and there's a lot that a group can take away.
Remember what Crowley says:
"It is impossible to lay down precise rules by which a man may attain to the knowledge and conversation of His Holy Guardian Angel; for that is the particular secret of each one of us; as secret not to be told or even divined by any other, whatever his grade. It is the Holy of Holies, whereof each man is his own High Priest, and none knoweth the Name of his brother's God, or the Rite that invokes Him."
That being the case, no one else is going to be able to help you accomplish this task in any substantial way.
The OP writes:
"For the evolution of the human race, EVERYONE ELSE NEEDS TO LEARN THIS STUFF TOO."
No they don't. This is a common beginner's mistake, thinking that there's some kind of universal importance to "this stuff." There's not. All of this self-development stuff in general (and magick stuff in particular) is a hobby engaged in by people with sufficient leisure time. Nobody's under any obligation to learn anything just because you happen to be interested in it.
Success in "initiation" is characterized by seeing reality clearly (especially seeing the Self clearly). Part of the training has to be obtaining a clearer and clearer picture of the world around you, and a good start is recognizing that none of this stuff has any bearing on "the evolution of the human race" and that there's no "need" for any of it.
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Ho-hum.
My own story is one of self-initiation.
Take the methods abound, do them; they work, who knew? The only danger in doing it all solely on your own is that you have no reflection on your attainments other than what your own experiences offer. The virtue in working the A.'.A.'., methinks, is that at every step your superior is seeing your journal, hearing your accounts, and confirming that you are what you claim. One can claim Mastership all one wants but it makes a world of difference to be called one by someone else, in all honesty and sincerity, especially someone else who's done the Work themselves.
I've had experiences that could very well be labeled as the attainments of the Tree, met my Angel, followed his guidance to the point where I was left without it to fend for myself, then reformed my Self on the other side with knowledge, power, clarity and Understanding. I used my own syncretic methods to reach that state. And still, I joined A.'.A.'. afterwards so that I may prove myself and fill in any blanks I may have left in my messy self-Gnosis.
These two quotes from One Star in Sight can perhaps illustrate why I think the A.'.A.'. holds something no self-initiation can confer.
"It should be stated that these Grades are not necessarily attained fully, and in strict consecution, or manifested wholly on all planes. The subject is very difficult, and entirely beyond the limits of this small treatise."
"The natural talents of individuals differ very widely. The late Sir Richard Jebb, one of the greatest classical scholars of modern times, was so inferior to the average mediocrity in mathematics, that despite repeated efforts he could not pass the “little go” at Cambridge — which the dullest of minds can usually do. He was so deeply esteemed for his classics that a special “Grace” was placeted so as to admit him to matriculation. Similarly a brilliant Exorcist might be an incompetent Diviner. In such a case the A.'.A.'. would refuse to swerve from Its system; the Aspirant would be compelled to remain at the Barrier until he succeeded in breaking it down, though a new incarnation were necessary to permit him to do so. But no technical failure of any kind soever could necessarily prevent him from accomplishing the Two Critical Tasks, since the fact of his incarnation itself proves that he has taken the Oath which entitled him to attain to the Knowledge and Conversation of his Holy Guardian Angel, and the annihilation of this Ego. One might therefore be an Adeptus Minor or even a Magister Templi, in essence, though refused official recognition by the A.'.A.'. as a Zelator owing to (say) a nervous defect which prevented him from acquiring a Posture which was “steady and easy” as required by the Task of that grade."
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I definately think the Inidividual is the first matter and the work begins there and we are also inseperably part of the whole.
@Liber LXI vel Causae said
"In all systems of religion is to be found a system of Initiation, which may be defined as the process by which a man comes to learn that unknown Crown.
Though none can communicate either the knowledge or the power to achieve this, which we may call the Great Work, it is yet possible for initiates to guide others.
Every man must overcome his own obstacles, expose his own illusions. Yet others may assist him to do both, and they may enable him altogether to avoid many of the false paths, leading no whither, which tempt the weary feet of the uninitiated pilgrim. They can further insure that he is duly tried and tested, for there are many who think themselves to be Masters who have not even begun to tread the Way of Service that leads thereto.
"Hey - but what does it matter anyway? I feel like reading the book of "Ecclesiastes".
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@P is for Pomegranate said
""It should be stated that these Grades are not necessarily attained fully, and in strict consecution, or manifested wholly on all planes. The subject is very difficult, and entirely beyond the limits of this small treatise.""
I think this is of enormous importance!
The above sentence has also thematically been touched here:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11299&start=37
... if you attempt initiation or self-initiation, work alone or in a group, you have systems of measurement (i.e. grades, sequences of evolution etc.) and compare your own progress against these.
But evolution is not a one-dimensional line.
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@danica said
"maybe a better way to say it would be: the Angel calls you and guides you. you have to be able to recognize/hear this call at least on some level (be it a' hint', feeling, intuition, dream, or Intuition....) in order to begin to consciously follow it."
I might be splitting hairs, by saying that is the "Thelemic symbolism of initiation"
That is, a beginning of the process of surrendering to the AngelMy thought was more "nothing can start until you get it started" in a general sense.
An idea that can be applied to all things, not merely spiritual development
That would be the end result, me hopes -
@Uni_Verse said
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@danica said
"maybe a better way to say it would be: the Angel calls you and guides you. you have to be able to recognize/hear this call at least on some level (be it a' hint', feeling, intuition, dream, or Intuition....) in order to begin to consciously follow it."I might be splitting hairs, by saying that is the "Thelemic symbolism of initiation"
That is, a beginning of the process of surrendering to the AngelMy thought was more "nothing can start until you get it started" in a general sense.
An idea that can be applied to all things, not merely spiritual development
That would be the end result, me hopes"basically, I completely agree with what you said.
it's actually a personal thing and everyone experiences it in a unique way, so it was ungrateful to generalize.
my suggested perspective was more of a 'feminine, receptive' type, and yours more of a 'masculine, penetrating'.
but they only reveal our own natures in our own beginnings on the Path
