The Nature Of 93

Jim Eshelman

@AShTON VQ'QL said

"I believe that the term Crowley used was "solar-phallic religion"."

That is a term he used later. That wasn't what I was talking about. I was specifically referring to instructions he received from Aiwass in the time leadiing up to the dictation of Liber L. The statement given him then was that he was to start a new solar religion.

Anonymous

Pardon me, I might stand corrected. I was going from memory on what Crowley wrote about his mission after the reception of TBOTL. Though to clarify a bit further, are you specifically referring to Crowley's diary entries as reproduced in The Equinox of the Gods in the month or so prior to the reception? Are there other referrences that he made that are not so out in the open?

Jim Eshelman

@AShTON VQ'QL said

"Though to clarify a bit further, are you specifically referring to Crowley's diary entries as reproduced in The Equinox of the Gods in the month or so prior to the reception? Are there other referrences that he made that are not so out in the open?"

It's directly from the diary ... but these have been published in bits and pieces in different places, so (without having the opportunity to research it from scratch) I can't say whether that part was published in the heavily edited excerpt reproduced in The Equinox 7 and The Equinox of the Gods.

But yeah - in general - his diaries from March 1904.

Anonymous

I have re-perused Crowley's logs and I thank you for standing me correct.

DavidH

What is the interpretation of love "under" will? Does this mean that love is less than will? Love under the control of will? or what?

Thanks,
CACL

93 93/93

Jim Eshelman

In one sense, love and will are the same - but yes, I have always taken it that the main message of the Thelemic dispensation was not so much that love was secondary to Will, but that Will is preeminent to all things.

Most of the time I take "under" to mean "consistent with." Other verses in CCXX readily interpret to infer that there are things people call "love" that may or may not be what is meant by the word "love" in other contexts. "There are love and love," etc. Love is consistent with True Will (I would propose) - things not consistent with True Will can't be love, i.e., unity, because one is even divided within oneself.

zeph

For exactly the reasons Jim specified at the very end of his message, I've taken to understand "under" as foundational -- Love as the foundation of Will, as the base and support from which Will springs forth.

zain

Hi & etc.

Perhaps I am a bit odd but I sort of see it as a rather simple equation.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. ( will = law )
Love is the law, love under will. ( love = law )
ergo: ( will = love )

But I'm sure I'm being quite unfashionable in this. (woo! yay!)

I always liked the joke "Hello love, I'm Will!" but that's just naughty.

giggle

"Remember all ye that existence is pure joy"
"by all I can give, by all I desire of ye all."
"...do ye also thus."

word!

Tony DeLuce

@zeph said

"For exactly the reasons Jim specified at the very end of his message, I've taken to understand "under" as foundational -- Love as the foundation of Will, as the base and support from which Will springs forth."

Love under Will, that is, Love is the substance of Will...

zain

hmmm I tend not to differentiate but that is just me, I'm crazy that way

I see love as an opening, a reaching outward as opposed to its opposite of fear which is a closing and a retreating inward

Tony DeLuce

@zain said

"hmmm I tend not to differentiate but that is just me, I'm crazy that way

"

If the very substance of Will is Love - where is the differentiation?

The very essence or nature of Will is Love...

Jim Eshelman

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I began my answer before by saying, "In one sense, love and will are the same."

But in the word under, the Book is making a differentiation. It's sweet and all that to keep "making no difference," but The Book of the Law makes a difference and I think we're copping out not to pursue and embrace that difference.

Love is the law, but "Do what thou wilt" is (or, at least, shall be) the whole of the law. That's a nontrivial qualitative distinction.

Crowley was more than a cunning linguist, he was actually a master of the English language - and I've never had any doubt that he was selected to receive this message because of the precision with which his psyche would render it into the English language (so far as it can be rendered into language). No word, probably no syllable, in Liber Legis is likely inconsequential.

Here are various meanings of "under" as a preposition.

"1. In a lower position or place than: a rug under a chair.

To or into a lower position or place than: rolled the ball under the couch.
Beneath the surface of: under the ground; swam under water.
Beneath the assumed surface or guise of: traveled under a false name.
Less than; smaller than: The jar's capacity is under three quarts.
Less than the required amount or degree of: under voting age.
Inferior to in status or rank: nine officers under me at headquarters.
Subject to the authority, rule, or control of: under a dictatorship.
Subject to the supervision, instruction, or influence of: under parental guidance.
Undergoing or receiving the effects of: under constant care.
Subject to the restraint or obligation of: under contract.
Within the group or classification of: listed under biology.
In the process of: under discussion.
In view of; because of: under these conditions.
With the authorization of: under the monarch's seal.
Sowed or planted with: an acre under oats.
Nautical. Powered or propelled by: under sail; under steam.
During the time conventionally assigned to (a sign of the zodiac): born under Aries. "

Some of these are silly, or just don't fit in the immediate or greater context of the quote, and we'd probably tend to agree on most of those. But others are quite in the running.

I think it's Nos. 8 & 9 - my "in the context of" ultimately means that love is "under the jurisdiction" of and "subject to the authority, rule, or control of" Will. If it ain't in alignment with True Will... No. 11 says mostly the same thing but in harder and more legalistic terms.

No. 17 is an interesting variation, though, that goes off in a different direction - not exactly at odds with the foregoing, and at least stretching the bounds of language a bit - but an interesting spin.

So, what actual meanings of the word "under" do some of you think were intended here? I think we are beholden to take the "on its face" meaning first, whatever deeper looking we do thereafter. In any case - as I said at the start - the Book itself makes the differentiation. Is not our duty to the Book to endeavor to understand its statements rather than dismiss them?

Tony DeLuce

@Jim Eshelman said

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I began my answer before by saying, "In one sense, love and will are the same."

But in the word under, the Book is making a differentiation. It's sweet and all that to keep "making no difference," but The Book of the Law makes a difference and I think we're copping out not to pursue and embrace that difference.

Love is the law, but "Do what thou wilt" is (or, at least, shall be) the whole of the law. That's a nontrivial qualitative distinction.

Crowley was more than a cunning linguist, he was actually a master of the English language - and I've never had any doubt that he was selected to receive this message because of the precision with which his psyche would render it into the English language (so far as it can be rendered into language). No word, probably no syllable, in Liber Legis is likely inconsequential.

Here are various meanings of "under" as a preposition.

"1. In a lower position or place than: a rug under a chair.

To or into a lower position or place than: rolled the ball under the couch.
Beneath the surface of: under the ground; swam under water.
Beneath the assumed surface or guise of: traveled under a false name.
Less than; smaller than: The jar's capacity is under three quarts.
Less than the required amount or degree of: under voting age.
Inferior to in status or rank: nine officers under me at headquarters.
Subject to the authority, rule, or control of: under a dictatorship.
Subject to the supervision, instruction, or influence of: under parental guidance.
Undergoing or receiving the effects of: under constant care.
Subject to the restraint or obligation of: under contract.
Within the group or classification of: listed under biology.
In the process of: under discussion.
In view of; because of: under these conditions.
With the authorization of: under the monarch's seal.
Sowed or planted with: an acre under oats.
Nautical. Powered or propelled by: under sail; under steam.
During the time conventionally assigned to (a sign of the zodiac): born under Aries. "

Some of these are silly, or just don't fit in the immediate or greater context of the quote, and we'd probably tend to agree on most of those. But others are quite in the running.

I think it's Nos. 8 & 9 - my "in the context of" ultimately means that love is "under the jurisdiction" of and "subject to the authority, rule, or control of" Will. If it ain't in alignment with True Will... No. 11 says mostly the same thing but in harder and more legalistic terms.

No. 17 is an interesting variation, though, that goes off in a different direction - not exactly at odds with the foregoing, and at least stretching the bounds of language a bit - but an interesting spin.

So, what actual meanings of the word "under" do some of you think were intended here? I think we are beholden to take the "on its face" meaning first, whatever deeper looking we do thereafter. In any case - as I said at the start - the Book itself makes the differentiation. Is not our duty to the Book to endeavor to understand its statements rather than dismiss them?"

I don't have time to check this out right now but I remember finding
something about the root of "substance" meaning to "to stand under"
and therefore I interpret 'Love' under 'Will' to mean that the substance
or nature of 'Will' is 'Love'.

Also, by greek gematria 'Will' and 'Love' are identical ( as we are all
well aware

bethata418

THELEMA

i personally think that nothing should be over looked, and almost all interpetations of the law are valid, or at least valid to some people. and the law changes meanings as you change.
"love is the law love under will"

over the years i have been studying this phrase and at 1st i thought it meant "love is the law and do your will"
then i thought it meant love is equal to will.
then i thought it meant do not put the search of love above your will
my most recent concept of this is a alchemical formula of love=salt is=mercury law=sulphur; love=salt under=mercury will=sulphur.

i wonder what i will think it will mean 5 years from now?? lol

but i think this is the nature of thelema itself, change, as with initation. with almost every aspect of thelema the more you learn the more your idea evolves.

AGAPE

418
AGAPE

zeph

@Jim Eshelman said

"
"

Nautical. Powered or propelled by: under sail; under steam."

So, what actual meanings of the word "under" do some of you think were intended here? I think we are beholden to take the "on its face" meaning first, whatever deeper looking we do thereafter. In any case - as I said at the start - the Book itself makes the differentiation. Is not our duty to the Book to endeavor to understand its statements rather than dismiss them?"

I'll take what's behind door #17, as it relates to my earlier statement on the matter; Love as the springboard for Will.