Service to Self, Service to Others
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Had some thoughts recently about this that are hard for me to flesh out on my own. Is there an underlying idea in Thelema that service to self and service to others is really the same thing?
What prompted the question was a discussion I've been having about Copyright Law:
You can buy pdf's and you can buy books. You can give either away as a
gift. The problem with a pdf is that it can be copied so easily. If
you went to the effort to Xerox a book, it would become more obvious
that you are "stealing."This puts me in mind of a strange thing that very much has to do with
occult ideas: the thinkers get paid the most, the laborers get paid
the least. Yet, sharing ideas should be natural and free. You've told
me something, I've absorbed it, it's in my brain, now I own it. (Don't
jump in with the technicalities of man-made law just yet). But, even
if I don't have a photographic memory, reproducing your ideas with my
faulty memory is enough to be considered "theft of intellectual
property." So, we've developed a system of patents and copyrights to
protect the inventor and the entrepreneur. It is like a game of
secrets: "I have a secret I will tell you that you will just LOVE for
a certain amount of money, but you can't tell anyone else or you will
have to pay me even MORE money-- MUCH more! You can tell people to
come to ME and PAY for the secret, but you can't tell them the secret.
And if you have them pay YOU for the secret, I'll have you locked up!"This is probably what someone would call "getting lost in a fog," but
that's because the laws are arbitrary. This is not the 10 Commandments
we're talking about. This is not "stealing is stealing," plain and
simple. These are ideas man came up with that could be changed
tomorrow. How the value of an idea is determined is something that
must be agreed upon, which is why in foreign countries like Sweden,
you're out of luck regarding Copyright Infringement. If people don't
agree, your law is useless. On the other hand, you'd be hard-pressed
to find anyone who says breaking & entering and burglary are not stealing.The argument could be made that copying products like pdfs or mp3s are stealing from all the hard-working people that worked behind the scenes, not just the inventors and entrepreneurs. These are the people whom the entrepreneur employs to make the inventor's idea a physical reality which people can enjoy; these people are the typesetters, the recording engineers, the factory workers, etc. and their families.
On the other hand, this is all based on Capitalism and service-to-self. I have seen it written in occult literature that contrary to the idea that "money is the root of all evil," money was actually a great invention which allowed us to progress to the point we are at today and it should be respected as such.
All of these ideas seem somehow tied to the Protestant work ethic, which is not a bad idea or anything, but there are some patents which do not represent hard work at all and very much seem to reflect the "something for nothing" ethic. Capitalism tends to trickle down from those who "work smart" to those who "work hard" and very little service-to-others is actually being accomplished at all. In fact, the argument could be made that Capitalism creates a competitive, selfish environment which is a disservice to the entire population involved. The US Department of Defense issued a statement saying that the biggest threat to America was GLOBAL WARMING, not terrorism, and it has been ignored in favor of economic interest of greedy capitalists.
Thelema, in my understanding, represents the freedom of the individual, which I presume means a free society. Is Thelema more than a philosophy or a religion, but also a political and economic movement? Can Thelema and democracy co-exist? Can Thelema and capitalism co-exist? Or is Thelema like a refined system like no other which, properly realized, replaces all others?
-
Had some thoughts recently about this that are hard for me to flesh out on my own. Is there an underlying idea in Thelema that service to self and service to others is really the same thing?
What prompted the question was a discussion I've been having about Copyright Law:
You can buy pdf's and you can buy books. You can give either away as a
gift. The problem with a pdf is that it can be copied so easily. If
you went to the effort to Xerox a book, it would become more obvious
that you are "stealing."This puts me in mind of a strange thing that very much has to do with
occult ideas: the thinkers get paid the most, the laborers get paid
the least. Yet, sharing ideas should be natural and free. You've told
me something, I've absorbed it, it's in my brain, now I own it. (Don't
jump in with the technicalities of man-made law just yet). But, even
if I don't have a photographic memory, reproducing your ideas with my
faulty memory is enough to be considered "theft of intellectual
property." So, we've developed a system of patents and copyrights to
protect the inventor and the entrepreneur. It is like a game of
secrets: "I have a secret I will tell you that you will just LOVE for
a certain amount of money, but you can't tell anyone else or you will
have to pay me even MORE money-- MUCH more! You can tell people to
come to ME and PAY for the secret, but you can't tell them the secret.
And if you have them pay YOU for the secret, I'll have you locked up!"This is probably what someone would call "getting lost in a fog," but
that's because the laws are arbitrary. This is not the 10 Commandments
we're talking about. This is not "stealing is stealing," plain and
simple. These are ideas man came up with that could be changed
tomorrow. How the value of an idea is determined is something that
must be agreed upon, which is why in foreign countries like Sweden,
you're out of luck regarding Copyright Infringement. If people don't
agree, your law is useless. On the other hand, you'd be hard-pressed
to find anyone who says breaking & entering and burglary are not stealing.The argument could be made that copying products like pdfs or mp3s are stealing from all the hard-working people that worked behind the scenes, not just the inventors and entrepreneurs. These are the people whom the entrepreneur employs to make the inventor's idea a physical reality which people can enjoy; these people are the typesetters, the recording engineers, the factory workers, etc. and their families.
On the other hand, this is all based on Capitalism and service-to-self. I have seen it written in occult literature that contrary to the idea that "money is the root of all evil," money was actually a great invention which allowed us to progress to the point we are at today and it should be respected as such.
All of these ideas seem somehow tied to the Protestant work ethic, which is not a bad idea or anything, but there are some patents which do not represent hard work at all and very much seem to reflect the "something for nothing" ethic. Capitalism tends to trickle down from those who "work smart" to those who "work hard" and very little service-to-others is actually being accomplished at all. In fact, the argument could be made that Capitalism creates a competitive, selfish environment which is a disservice to the entire population involved. The US Department of Defense issued a statement saying that the biggest threat to America was GLOBAL WARMING, not terrorism, and it has been ignored in favor of economic interest of greedy capitalists.
Thelema, in my understanding, represents the freedom of the individual, which I presume means a free society. Is Thelema more than a philosophy or a religion, but also a political and economic movement? Can Thelema and democracy co-exist? Can Thelema and capitalism co-exist? Or is Thelema like a refined system like no other which, properly realized, replaces all others?
@Redd Fezz said
"Regarding Elaine Pagel- I've compared her work a few times in Barnes & Nobles with other books that competed for my attention, such as Stephen A. Hoeller's "Jung & The Lost Gospels" and "The Nag Hammadi Library." Each time, I put Pagel's books back in favor of the other."
Pagels focuses on the early Gnosticism. Hoeller focuses on contemporary and recent reconstructed Gnosticism.
@Redd Fezz said
"I borrowed and read "The Gnostic Gospels" from a friend and, I have to be honest, I just don't like her style."
Forget style. Perhaps you don't really need to read Pagels, but don't let style hold you back from studying magic. I don't care much for Crowley's style, but I read the hell out of him. Magic requires hard work and intensive study. You can't just pick your reading based on how much you enjoy it.
@Redd Fezz said
"Regarding her "Origin of Satan," there are a lot of other Origin of Satan type books I've been looking to get. Are you who suggest Pagel's work suggesting it is the most accurate or best? I have read portions of this in the store as well and agreed with the one Amazon reviewer who complained there just wasn't enough Satan in it and too much of her own meandering thoughts:"
Meandering? I read it as a clear and highly contextualized history of the political, cultural, and religous context in which the modern Satan emerged. Granted, much of it does focus on the political interests and relationships of the Gospel authors and does seem, at time, somewhat separate from the issue of Satan. However, that discussion enables us to understand the context in and purpose for which the modern Satan took form at each step. Perhaps both of you looked for contemporary myths about Satan and his supposed relationship to or equation with other Satan-like deities. But, based on her work and the work of another, those meanings and relationships do not appear to have existed at that point amongst Jewish peoples.
@Redd Fezz said
""Instead, the book is limited to a study of Satan as a literary and political device in the Gospels and in Christian church history, a much more limited study than the title implies.""
Perhaps this provides one answer for what Satan is.
@Redd Fezz said
"AND it's a thin book!"
All the better.
-
Had some thoughts recently about this that are hard for me to flesh out on my own. Is there an underlying idea in Thelema that service to self and service to others is really the same thing?
What prompted the question was a discussion I've been having about Copyright Law:
You can buy pdf's and you can buy books. You can give either away as a
gift. The problem with a pdf is that it can be copied so easily. If
you went to the effort to Xerox a book, it would become more obvious
that you are "stealing."This puts me in mind of a strange thing that very much has to do with
occult ideas: the thinkers get paid the most, the laborers get paid
the least. Yet, sharing ideas should be natural and free. You've told
me something, I've absorbed it, it's in my brain, now I own it. (Don't
jump in with the technicalities of man-made law just yet). But, even
if I don't have a photographic memory, reproducing your ideas with my
faulty memory is enough to be considered "theft of intellectual
property." So, we've developed a system of patents and copyrights to
protect the inventor and the entrepreneur. It is like a game of
secrets: "I have a secret I will tell you that you will just LOVE for
a certain amount of money, but you can't tell anyone else or you will
have to pay me even MORE money-- MUCH more! You can tell people to
come to ME and PAY for the secret, but you can't tell them the secret.
And if you have them pay YOU for the secret, I'll have you locked up!"This is probably what someone would call "getting lost in a fog," but
that's because the laws are arbitrary. This is not the 10 Commandments
we're talking about. This is not "stealing is stealing," plain and
simple. These are ideas man came up with that could be changed
tomorrow. How the value of an idea is determined is something that
must be agreed upon, which is why in foreign countries like Sweden,
you're out of luck regarding Copyright Infringement. If people don't
agree, your law is useless. On the other hand, you'd be hard-pressed
to find anyone who says breaking & entering and burglary are not stealing.The argument could be made that copying products like pdfs or mp3s are stealing from all the hard-working people that worked behind the scenes, not just the inventors and entrepreneurs. These are the people whom the entrepreneur employs to make the inventor's idea a physical reality which people can enjoy; these people are the typesetters, the recording engineers, the factory workers, etc. and their families.
On the other hand, this is all based on Capitalism and service-to-self. I have seen it written in occult literature that contrary to the idea that "money is the root of all evil," money was actually a great invention which allowed us to progress to the point we are at today and it should be respected as such.
All of these ideas seem somehow tied to the Protestant work ethic, which is not a bad idea or anything, but there are some patents which do not represent hard work at all and very much seem to reflect the "something for nothing" ethic. Capitalism tends to trickle down from those who "work smart" to those who "work hard" and very little service-to-others is actually being accomplished at all. In fact, the argument could be made that Capitalism creates a competitive, selfish environment which is a disservice to the entire population involved. The US Department of Defense issued a statement saying that the biggest threat to America was GLOBAL WARMING, not terrorism, and it has been ignored in favor of economic interest of greedy capitalists.
Thelema, in my understanding, represents the freedom of the individual, which I presume means a free society. Is Thelema more than a philosophy or a religion, but also a political and economic movement? Can Thelema and democracy co-exist? Can Thelema and capitalism co-exist? Or is Thelema like a refined system like no other which, properly realized, replaces all others?
All right, I will check out the book. What I meant about her style was that she tends to present her opinions and deductions in a neat little picture rather than letting the reader make up his own mind. Thin little books are great... but when dealing with historicity, moreso when they are a "Liber" in a much larger collection of "Libers", with exhaustive footnotes and as few details and contrary opinions left out as possible. In other words, I prefer a big friggin' book with no stone left unturned on subjects such as this.
-
Had some thoughts recently about this that are hard for me to flesh out on my own. Is there an underlying idea in Thelema that service to self and service to others is really the same thing?
What prompted the question was a discussion I've been having about Copyright Law:
You can buy pdf's and you can buy books. You can give either away as a
gift. The problem with a pdf is that it can be copied so easily. If
you went to the effort to Xerox a book, it would become more obvious
that you are "stealing."This puts me in mind of a strange thing that very much has to do with
occult ideas: the thinkers get paid the most, the laborers get paid
the least. Yet, sharing ideas should be natural and free. You've told
me something, I've absorbed it, it's in my brain, now I own it. (Don't
jump in with the technicalities of man-made law just yet). But, even
if I don't have a photographic memory, reproducing your ideas with my
faulty memory is enough to be considered "theft of intellectual
property." So, we've developed a system of patents and copyrights to
protect the inventor and the entrepreneur. It is like a game of
secrets: "I have a secret I will tell you that you will just LOVE for
a certain amount of money, but you can't tell anyone else or you will
have to pay me even MORE money-- MUCH more! You can tell people to
come to ME and PAY for the secret, but you can't tell them the secret.
And if you have them pay YOU for the secret, I'll have you locked up!"This is probably what someone would call "getting lost in a fog," but
that's because the laws are arbitrary. This is not the 10 Commandments
we're talking about. This is not "stealing is stealing," plain and
simple. These are ideas man came up with that could be changed
tomorrow. How the value of an idea is determined is something that
must be agreed upon, which is why in foreign countries like Sweden,
you're out of luck regarding Copyright Infringement. If people don't
agree, your law is useless. On the other hand, you'd be hard-pressed
to find anyone who says breaking & entering and burglary are not stealing.The argument could be made that copying products like pdfs or mp3s are stealing from all the hard-working people that worked behind the scenes, not just the inventors and entrepreneurs. These are the people whom the entrepreneur employs to make the inventor's idea a physical reality which people can enjoy; these people are the typesetters, the recording engineers, the factory workers, etc. and their families.
On the other hand, this is all based on Capitalism and service-to-self. I have seen it written in occult literature that contrary to the idea that "money is the root of all evil," money was actually a great invention which allowed us to progress to the point we are at today and it should be respected as such.
All of these ideas seem somehow tied to the Protestant work ethic, which is not a bad idea or anything, but there are some patents which do not represent hard work at all and very much seem to reflect the "something for nothing" ethic. Capitalism tends to trickle down from those who "work smart" to those who "work hard" and very little service-to-others is actually being accomplished at all. In fact, the argument could be made that Capitalism creates a competitive, selfish environment which is a disservice to the entire population involved. The US Department of Defense issued a statement saying that the biggest threat to America was GLOBAL WARMING, not terrorism, and it has been ignored in favor of economic interest of greedy capitalists.
Thelema, in my understanding, represents the freedom of the individual, which I presume means a free society. Is Thelema more than a philosophy or a religion, but also a political and economic movement? Can Thelema and democracy co-exist? Can Thelema and capitalism co-exist? Or is Thelema like a refined system like no other which, properly realized, replaces all others?
@Redd Fezz said
"I didn't realize there was a Sumerian God named Aiwaz. >shrug<"
I've never heard of it either - except that Crowley keeps referring to Aiwaz as the name of a Sumerian god. There isn't any reason I can think of to assume that he meant some other Sumerian god.
-
Had some thoughts recently about this that are hard for me to flesh out on my own. Is there an underlying idea in Thelema that service to self and service to others is really the same thing?
What prompted the question was a discussion I've been having about Copyright Law:
You can buy pdf's and you can buy books. You can give either away as a
gift. The problem with a pdf is that it can be copied so easily. If
you went to the effort to Xerox a book, it would become more obvious
that you are "stealing."This puts me in mind of a strange thing that very much has to do with
occult ideas: the thinkers get paid the most, the laborers get paid
the least. Yet, sharing ideas should be natural and free. You've told
me something, I've absorbed it, it's in my brain, now I own it. (Don't
jump in with the technicalities of man-made law just yet). But, even
if I don't have a photographic memory, reproducing your ideas with my
faulty memory is enough to be considered "theft of intellectual
property." So, we've developed a system of patents and copyrights to
protect the inventor and the entrepreneur. It is like a game of
secrets: "I have a secret I will tell you that you will just LOVE for
a certain amount of money, but you can't tell anyone else or you will
have to pay me even MORE money-- MUCH more! You can tell people to
come to ME and PAY for the secret, but you can't tell them the secret.
And if you have them pay YOU for the secret, I'll have you locked up!"This is probably what someone would call "getting lost in a fog," but
that's because the laws are arbitrary. This is not the 10 Commandments
we're talking about. This is not "stealing is stealing," plain and
simple. These are ideas man came up with that could be changed
tomorrow. How the value of an idea is determined is something that
must be agreed upon, which is why in foreign countries like Sweden,
you're out of luck regarding Copyright Infringement. If people don't
agree, your law is useless. On the other hand, you'd be hard-pressed
to find anyone who says breaking & entering and burglary are not stealing.The argument could be made that copying products like pdfs or mp3s are stealing from all the hard-working people that worked behind the scenes, not just the inventors and entrepreneurs. These are the people whom the entrepreneur employs to make the inventor's idea a physical reality which people can enjoy; these people are the typesetters, the recording engineers, the factory workers, etc. and their families.
On the other hand, this is all based on Capitalism and service-to-self. I have seen it written in occult literature that contrary to the idea that "money is the root of all evil," money was actually a great invention which allowed us to progress to the point we are at today and it should be respected as such.
All of these ideas seem somehow tied to the Protestant work ethic, which is not a bad idea or anything, but there are some patents which do not represent hard work at all and very much seem to reflect the "something for nothing" ethic. Capitalism tends to trickle down from those who "work smart" to those who "work hard" and very little service-to-others is actually being accomplished at all. In fact, the argument could be made that Capitalism creates a competitive, selfish environment which is a disservice to the entire population involved. The US Department of Defense issued a statement saying that the biggest threat to America was GLOBAL WARMING, not terrorism, and it has been ignored in favor of economic interest of greedy capitalists.
Thelema, in my understanding, represents the freedom of the individual, which I presume means a free society. Is Thelema more than a philosophy or a religion, but also a political and economic movement? Can Thelema and democracy co-exist? Can Thelema and capitalism co-exist? Or is Thelema like a refined system like no other which, properly realized, replaces all others?
@Redd Fezz said
"All right, I will check out the book. What I meant about her style was that she tends to present her opinions and deductions in a neat little picture rather than letting the reader make up his own mind."
Probably part of what I like about her. I get pretty tired of authors that aren't opinionated and authoritative. If they aren't going to take themselves that seriously, why should I?
Dogmatize at me! (Not that I think she does.) Take a stand! Represent a singular point of view and develop the hell out of it. I can then agree or disagree. But at least it's not just a jumble of mumbling facts.
"Thin little books are great... but when dealing with historicity, moreso when they are a "Liber" in a much larger collection of "Libers", with exhaustive footnotes and as few details and contrary opinions left out as possible. In other words, I prefer a big friggin' book with no stone left unturned on subjects such as this."
I hate those.
I collect them, but rarely read them.
-
Had some thoughts recently about this that are hard for me to flesh out on my own. Is there an underlying idea in Thelema that service to self and service to others is really the same thing?
What prompted the question was a discussion I've been having about Copyright Law:
You can buy pdf's and you can buy books. You can give either away as a
gift. The problem with a pdf is that it can be copied so easily. If
you went to the effort to Xerox a book, it would become more obvious
that you are "stealing."This puts me in mind of a strange thing that very much has to do with
occult ideas: the thinkers get paid the most, the laborers get paid
the least. Yet, sharing ideas should be natural and free. You've told
me something, I've absorbed it, it's in my brain, now I own it. (Don't
jump in with the technicalities of man-made law just yet). But, even
if I don't have a photographic memory, reproducing your ideas with my
faulty memory is enough to be considered "theft of intellectual
property." So, we've developed a system of patents and copyrights to
protect the inventor and the entrepreneur. It is like a game of
secrets: "I have a secret I will tell you that you will just LOVE for
a certain amount of money, but you can't tell anyone else or you will
have to pay me even MORE money-- MUCH more! You can tell people to
come to ME and PAY for the secret, but you can't tell them the secret.
And if you have them pay YOU for the secret, I'll have you locked up!"This is probably what someone would call "getting lost in a fog," but
that's because the laws are arbitrary. This is not the 10 Commandments
we're talking about. This is not "stealing is stealing," plain and
simple. These are ideas man came up with that could be changed
tomorrow. How the value of an idea is determined is something that
must be agreed upon, which is why in foreign countries like Sweden,
you're out of luck regarding Copyright Infringement. If people don't
agree, your law is useless. On the other hand, you'd be hard-pressed
to find anyone who says breaking & entering and burglary are not stealing.The argument could be made that copying products like pdfs or mp3s are stealing from all the hard-working people that worked behind the scenes, not just the inventors and entrepreneurs. These are the people whom the entrepreneur employs to make the inventor's idea a physical reality which people can enjoy; these people are the typesetters, the recording engineers, the factory workers, etc. and their families.
On the other hand, this is all based on Capitalism and service-to-self. I have seen it written in occult literature that contrary to the idea that "money is the root of all evil," money was actually a great invention which allowed us to progress to the point we are at today and it should be respected as such.
All of these ideas seem somehow tied to the Protestant work ethic, which is not a bad idea or anything, but there are some patents which do not represent hard work at all and very much seem to reflect the "something for nothing" ethic. Capitalism tends to trickle down from those who "work smart" to those who "work hard" and very little service-to-others is actually being accomplished at all. In fact, the argument could be made that Capitalism creates a competitive, selfish environment which is a disservice to the entire population involved. The US Department of Defense issued a statement saying that the biggest threat to America was GLOBAL WARMING, not terrorism, and it has been ignored in favor of economic interest of greedy capitalists.
Thelema, in my understanding, represents the freedom of the individual, which I presume means a free society. Is Thelema more than a philosophy or a religion, but also a political and economic movement? Can Thelema and democracy co-exist? Can Thelema and capitalism co-exist? Or is Thelema like a refined system like no other which, properly realized, replaces all others?
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@Redd Fezz said
"I didn't realize there was a Sumerian God named Aiwaz. >shrug<"I've never heard of it either - except that Crowley keeps referring to Aiwaz as the name of a Sumerian god. There isn't any reason I can think of to assume that he meant some other Sumerian god."
Good point, he doesn't come out and specifically name any other Sumerian God, does he?
Aquino and Grant did conclude this. I'm not even sure if this quote is why they concluded this or if they based it on other simillarities. But, they are not Crowley, are they?
For me, I read that he believed it was "that God / Devil of Sumer" and immediately thought, "Hmmm. He must be referring to history: 'The Gods of one generation become the Devils of the next.' So, what was the God of Sumer that became the Devil of the next?" I concluded he must mean Aiwaz was Set, since we are talking about an Egyptian pantheon Aeon-wise and Set is mythically the twin of Horus, who has certain obvious similarities to Enki of Sumer. Both Set and Enki were worshipped as Gods and feared as Devils, or basic personification of "evil," but with enough "good" aspects to aquire their worshippers. And there is enough similarity other than the etymology of the names Set and Shaitan to link these Gods to Satan, who is similarly considered "an agent of God" and a "devil" and also the basic personification of "evil." Not everyone agrees, of course.
BUT, in the context of "service to self" or "service to others," the nature of any one of these entities being somehow related to The Book of The Law is enough to warrant serious consideration. I am not suggesting it invalidates it by any means. I am saying it is important.
-
Had some thoughts recently about this that are hard for me to flesh out on my own. Is there an underlying idea in Thelema that service to self and service to others is really the same thing?
What prompted the question was a discussion I've been having about Copyright Law:
You can buy pdf's and you can buy books. You can give either away as a
gift. The problem with a pdf is that it can be copied so easily. If
you went to the effort to Xerox a book, it would become more obvious
that you are "stealing."This puts me in mind of a strange thing that very much has to do with
occult ideas: the thinkers get paid the most, the laborers get paid
the least. Yet, sharing ideas should be natural and free. You've told
me something, I've absorbed it, it's in my brain, now I own it. (Don't
jump in with the technicalities of man-made law just yet). But, even
if I don't have a photographic memory, reproducing your ideas with my
faulty memory is enough to be considered "theft of intellectual
property." So, we've developed a system of patents and copyrights to
protect the inventor and the entrepreneur. It is like a game of
secrets: "I have a secret I will tell you that you will just LOVE for
a certain amount of money, but you can't tell anyone else or you will
have to pay me even MORE money-- MUCH more! You can tell people to
come to ME and PAY for the secret, but you can't tell them the secret.
And if you have them pay YOU for the secret, I'll have you locked up!"This is probably what someone would call "getting lost in a fog," but
that's because the laws are arbitrary. This is not the 10 Commandments
we're talking about. This is not "stealing is stealing," plain and
simple. These are ideas man came up with that could be changed
tomorrow. How the value of an idea is determined is something that
must be agreed upon, which is why in foreign countries like Sweden,
you're out of luck regarding Copyright Infringement. If people don't
agree, your law is useless. On the other hand, you'd be hard-pressed
to find anyone who says breaking & entering and burglary are not stealing.The argument could be made that copying products like pdfs or mp3s are stealing from all the hard-working people that worked behind the scenes, not just the inventors and entrepreneurs. These are the people whom the entrepreneur employs to make the inventor's idea a physical reality which people can enjoy; these people are the typesetters, the recording engineers, the factory workers, etc. and their families.
On the other hand, this is all based on Capitalism and service-to-self. I have seen it written in occult literature that contrary to the idea that "money is the root of all evil," money was actually a great invention which allowed us to progress to the point we are at today and it should be respected as such.
All of these ideas seem somehow tied to the Protestant work ethic, which is not a bad idea or anything, but there are some patents which do not represent hard work at all and very much seem to reflect the "something for nothing" ethic. Capitalism tends to trickle down from those who "work smart" to those who "work hard" and very little service-to-others is actually being accomplished at all. In fact, the argument could be made that Capitalism creates a competitive, selfish environment which is a disservice to the entire population involved. The US Department of Defense issued a statement saying that the biggest threat to America was GLOBAL WARMING, not terrorism, and it has been ignored in favor of economic interest of greedy capitalists.
Thelema, in my understanding, represents the freedom of the individual, which I presume means a free society. Is Thelema more than a philosophy or a religion, but also a political and economic movement? Can Thelema and democracy co-exist? Can Thelema and capitalism co-exist? Or is Thelema like a refined system like no other which, properly realized, replaces all others?
@Jim Eshelman said
"
Dogmatize at me! (Not that I think she does.) Take a stand! Represent a singular point of view and develop the hell out of it. I can then agree or disagree. But at least it's not just a jumble of mumbling facts."To agree or disagree with someone, even Elaine Pagels, you need to know as much about a subject as possible, right? That's the problem with our president, for example. He "follows his instincts and prays he's right," as Senator Joseph Biden said recently.
In context, it was quite hilarious.@Jim Eshelman said
"I collect them, but rarely read them."
It's important when formulating opinions to have a complete picture as possible. That was Crowley's whole point, wasn't it? The method of Science, the aim of Religion. Otherwise, you're just following your instincts or being led, possibly duped, even. So, you must read those big books you hate at least once, right?
Sure, Pagels is an authority in her field. I would like to trust her. Brian Green is an authority in his field, too. That did not stop me from highlighting multiple non-scientific passages from his "Elegant Universe" book.Are there any big books about Satan you've read that you could recommend as well? I've been comparing for quite a while, wanting to make sure whatever I buy and spend time considering is as unbiased as possible.
-
Had some thoughts recently about this that are hard for me to flesh out on my own. Is there an underlying idea in Thelema that service to self and service to others is really the same thing?
What prompted the question was a discussion I've been having about Copyright Law:
You can buy pdf's and you can buy books. You can give either away as a
gift. The problem with a pdf is that it can be copied so easily. If
you went to the effort to Xerox a book, it would become more obvious
that you are "stealing."This puts me in mind of a strange thing that very much has to do with
occult ideas: the thinkers get paid the most, the laborers get paid
the least. Yet, sharing ideas should be natural and free. You've told
me something, I've absorbed it, it's in my brain, now I own it. (Don't
jump in with the technicalities of man-made law just yet). But, even
if I don't have a photographic memory, reproducing your ideas with my
faulty memory is enough to be considered "theft of intellectual
property." So, we've developed a system of patents and copyrights to
protect the inventor and the entrepreneur. It is like a game of
secrets: "I have a secret I will tell you that you will just LOVE for
a certain amount of money, but you can't tell anyone else or you will
have to pay me even MORE money-- MUCH more! You can tell people to
come to ME and PAY for the secret, but you can't tell them the secret.
And if you have them pay YOU for the secret, I'll have you locked up!"This is probably what someone would call "getting lost in a fog," but
that's because the laws are arbitrary. This is not the 10 Commandments
we're talking about. This is not "stealing is stealing," plain and
simple. These are ideas man came up with that could be changed
tomorrow. How the value of an idea is determined is something that
must be agreed upon, which is why in foreign countries like Sweden,
you're out of luck regarding Copyright Infringement. If people don't
agree, your law is useless. On the other hand, you'd be hard-pressed
to find anyone who says breaking & entering and burglary are not stealing.The argument could be made that copying products like pdfs or mp3s are stealing from all the hard-working people that worked behind the scenes, not just the inventors and entrepreneurs. These are the people whom the entrepreneur employs to make the inventor's idea a physical reality which people can enjoy; these people are the typesetters, the recording engineers, the factory workers, etc. and their families.
On the other hand, this is all based on Capitalism and service-to-self. I have seen it written in occult literature that contrary to the idea that "money is the root of all evil," money was actually a great invention which allowed us to progress to the point we are at today and it should be respected as such.
All of these ideas seem somehow tied to the Protestant work ethic, which is not a bad idea or anything, but there are some patents which do not represent hard work at all and very much seem to reflect the "something for nothing" ethic. Capitalism tends to trickle down from those who "work smart" to those who "work hard" and very little service-to-others is actually being accomplished at all. In fact, the argument could be made that Capitalism creates a competitive, selfish environment which is a disservice to the entire population involved. The US Department of Defense issued a statement saying that the biggest threat to America was GLOBAL WARMING, not terrorism, and it has been ignored in favor of economic interest of greedy capitalists.
Thelema, in my understanding, represents the freedom of the individual, which I presume means a free society. Is Thelema more than a philosophy or a religion, but also a political and economic movement? Can Thelema and democracy co-exist? Can Thelema and capitalism co-exist? Or is Thelema like a refined system like no other which, properly realized, replaces all others?
Hi JAE,
Redd said to JAE, "Thanks for all the info. I do appreciate the time and effort you've all taken to explain that could have be spent doing a zillion other more enjoyable things."
My thanks to you, also. Your conversations with Redd are so clear,patient and helpful. Redd is asking excellent questions.
In appreciation,
chrys333 -
Had some thoughts recently about this that are hard for me to flesh out on my own. Is there an underlying idea in Thelema that service to self and service to others is really the same thing?
What prompted the question was a discussion I've been having about Copyright Law:
You can buy pdf's and you can buy books. You can give either away as a
gift. The problem with a pdf is that it can be copied so easily. If
you went to the effort to Xerox a book, it would become more obvious
that you are "stealing."This puts me in mind of a strange thing that very much has to do with
occult ideas: the thinkers get paid the most, the laborers get paid
the least. Yet, sharing ideas should be natural and free. You've told
me something, I've absorbed it, it's in my brain, now I own it. (Don't
jump in with the technicalities of man-made law just yet). But, even
if I don't have a photographic memory, reproducing your ideas with my
faulty memory is enough to be considered "theft of intellectual
property." So, we've developed a system of patents and copyrights to
protect the inventor and the entrepreneur. It is like a game of
secrets: "I have a secret I will tell you that you will just LOVE for
a certain amount of money, but you can't tell anyone else or you will
have to pay me even MORE money-- MUCH more! You can tell people to
come to ME and PAY for the secret, but you can't tell them the secret.
And if you have them pay YOU for the secret, I'll have you locked up!"This is probably what someone would call "getting lost in a fog," but
that's because the laws are arbitrary. This is not the 10 Commandments
we're talking about. This is not "stealing is stealing," plain and
simple. These are ideas man came up with that could be changed
tomorrow. How the value of an idea is determined is something that
must be agreed upon, which is why in foreign countries like Sweden,
you're out of luck regarding Copyright Infringement. If people don't
agree, your law is useless. On the other hand, you'd be hard-pressed
to find anyone who says breaking & entering and burglary are not stealing.The argument could be made that copying products like pdfs or mp3s are stealing from all the hard-working people that worked behind the scenes, not just the inventors and entrepreneurs. These are the people whom the entrepreneur employs to make the inventor's idea a physical reality which people can enjoy; these people are the typesetters, the recording engineers, the factory workers, etc. and their families.
On the other hand, this is all based on Capitalism and service-to-self. I have seen it written in occult literature that contrary to the idea that "money is the root of all evil," money was actually a great invention which allowed us to progress to the point we are at today and it should be respected as such.
All of these ideas seem somehow tied to the Protestant work ethic, which is not a bad idea or anything, but there are some patents which do not represent hard work at all and very much seem to reflect the "something for nothing" ethic. Capitalism tends to trickle down from those who "work smart" to those who "work hard" and very little service-to-others is actually being accomplished at all. In fact, the argument could be made that Capitalism creates a competitive, selfish environment which is a disservice to the entire population involved. The US Department of Defense issued a statement saying that the biggest threat to America was GLOBAL WARMING, not terrorism, and it has been ignored in favor of economic interest of greedy capitalists.
Thelema, in my understanding, represents the freedom of the individual, which I presume means a free society. Is Thelema more than a philosophy or a religion, but also a political and economic movement? Can Thelema and democracy co-exist? Can Thelema and capitalism co-exist? Or is Thelema like a refined system like no other which, properly realized, replaces all others?
Hi Guys,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
As per one of the initial subjects of this thread (service to self, service to others and Crowley's imperfections as well as the imperfections of so-called 'masters') I would suggest reading the letter/chapter entitled, I believe (I'm away from my library), 'How could a Magus be worried?' in 'Magic Without Tears'.
This thread has been quite interesting for several personal reasons (not the least of which is that I'm probably the nicest asshole you'll ever meet) and my thanks goes out to everyone involved.
Love is the law, love under will.
Y.S.
-
Had some thoughts recently about this that are hard for me to flesh out on my own. Is there an underlying idea in Thelema that service to self and service to others is really the same thing?
What prompted the question was a discussion I've been having about Copyright Law:
You can buy pdf's and you can buy books. You can give either away as a
gift. The problem with a pdf is that it can be copied so easily. If
you went to the effort to Xerox a book, it would become more obvious
that you are "stealing."This puts me in mind of a strange thing that very much has to do with
occult ideas: the thinkers get paid the most, the laborers get paid
the least. Yet, sharing ideas should be natural and free. You've told
me something, I've absorbed it, it's in my brain, now I own it. (Don't
jump in with the technicalities of man-made law just yet). But, even
if I don't have a photographic memory, reproducing your ideas with my
faulty memory is enough to be considered "theft of intellectual
property." So, we've developed a system of patents and copyrights to
protect the inventor and the entrepreneur. It is like a game of
secrets: "I have a secret I will tell you that you will just LOVE for
a certain amount of money, but you can't tell anyone else or you will
have to pay me even MORE money-- MUCH more! You can tell people to
come to ME and PAY for the secret, but you can't tell them the secret.
And if you have them pay YOU for the secret, I'll have you locked up!"This is probably what someone would call "getting lost in a fog," but
that's because the laws are arbitrary. This is not the 10 Commandments
we're talking about. This is not "stealing is stealing," plain and
simple. These are ideas man came up with that could be changed
tomorrow. How the value of an idea is determined is something that
must be agreed upon, which is why in foreign countries like Sweden,
you're out of luck regarding Copyright Infringement. If people don't
agree, your law is useless. On the other hand, you'd be hard-pressed
to find anyone who says breaking & entering and burglary are not stealing.The argument could be made that copying products like pdfs or mp3s are stealing from all the hard-working people that worked behind the scenes, not just the inventors and entrepreneurs. These are the people whom the entrepreneur employs to make the inventor's idea a physical reality which people can enjoy; these people are the typesetters, the recording engineers, the factory workers, etc. and their families.
On the other hand, this is all based on Capitalism and service-to-self. I have seen it written in occult literature that contrary to the idea that "money is the root of all evil," money was actually a great invention which allowed us to progress to the point we are at today and it should be respected as such.
All of these ideas seem somehow tied to the Protestant work ethic, which is not a bad idea or anything, but there are some patents which do not represent hard work at all and very much seem to reflect the "something for nothing" ethic. Capitalism tends to trickle down from those who "work smart" to those who "work hard" and very little service-to-others is actually being accomplished at all. In fact, the argument could be made that Capitalism creates a competitive, selfish environment which is a disservice to the entire population involved. The US Department of Defense issued a statement saying that the biggest threat to America was GLOBAL WARMING, not terrorism, and it has been ignored in favor of economic interest of greedy capitalists.
Thelema, in my understanding, represents the freedom of the individual, which I presume means a free society. Is Thelema more than a philosophy or a religion, but also a political and economic movement? Can Thelema and democracy co-exist? Can Thelema and capitalism co-exist? Or is Thelema like a refined system like no other which, properly realized, replaces all others?
Here are the books I plan to pick up tomorrow:
Elaine Pagels - Origin of Satan
Mark S. Smith - The Early History of God (this looks really good!)I would love to get Mark S. Smith's other huge academic book on the subject, but it's $60+ and probably dry as hell. I trust he has distilled the essentials into a somewhat more "popular"-styled book under the name "The Early History of God."
I'm still considering "Jehovah Unmasked," but the fact that it is self-published through Lulu.com is a little off-putting.
-
Had some thoughts recently about this that are hard for me to flesh out on my own. Is there an underlying idea in Thelema that service to self and service to others is really the same thing?
What prompted the question was a discussion I've been having about Copyright Law:
You can buy pdf's and you can buy books. You can give either away as a
gift. The problem with a pdf is that it can be copied so easily. If
you went to the effort to Xerox a book, it would become more obvious
that you are "stealing."This puts me in mind of a strange thing that very much has to do with
occult ideas: the thinkers get paid the most, the laborers get paid
the least. Yet, sharing ideas should be natural and free. You've told
me something, I've absorbed it, it's in my brain, now I own it. (Don't
jump in with the technicalities of man-made law just yet). But, even
if I don't have a photographic memory, reproducing your ideas with my
faulty memory is enough to be considered "theft of intellectual
property." So, we've developed a system of patents and copyrights to
protect the inventor and the entrepreneur. It is like a game of
secrets: "I have a secret I will tell you that you will just LOVE for
a certain amount of money, but you can't tell anyone else or you will
have to pay me even MORE money-- MUCH more! You can tell people to
come to ME and PAY for the secret, but you can't tell them the secret.
And if you have them pay YOU for the secret, I'll have you locked up!"This is probably what someone would call "getting lost in a fog," but
that's because the laws are arbitrary. This is not the 10 Commandments
we're talking about. This is not "stealing is stealing," plain and
simple. These are ideas man came up with that could be changed
tomorrow. How the value of an idea is determined is something that
must be agreed upon, which is why in foreign countries like Sweden,
you're out of luck regarding Copyright Infringement. If people don't
agree, your law is useless. On the other hand, you'd be hard-pressed
to find anyone who says breaking & entering and burglary are not stealing.The argument could be made that copying products like pdfs or mp3s are stealing from all the hard-working people that worked behind the scenes, not just the inventors and entrepreneurs. These are the people whom the entrepreneur employs to make the inventor's idea a physical reality which people can enjoy; these people are the typesetters, the recording engineers, the factory workers, etc. and their families.
On the other hand, this is all based on Capitalism and service-to-self. I have seen it written in occult literature that contrary to the idea that "money is the root of all evil," money was actually a great invention which allowed us to progress to the point we are at today and it should be respected as such.
All of these ideas seem somehow tied to the Protestant work ethic, which is not a bad idea or anything, but there are some patents which do not represent hard work at all and very much seem to reflect the "something for nothing" ethic. Capitalism tends to trickle down from those who "work smart" to those who "work hard" and very little service-to-others is actually being accomplished at all. In fact, the argument could be made that Capitalism creates a competitive, selfish environment which is a disservice to the entire population involved. The US Department of Defense issued a statement saying that the biggest threat to America was GLOBAL WARMING, not terrorism, and it has been ignored in favor of economic interest of greedy capitalists.
Thelema, in my understanding, represents the freedom of the individual, which I presume means a free society. Is Thelema more than a philosophy or a religion, but also a political and economic movement? Can Thelema and democracy co-exist? Can Thelema and capitalism co-exist? Or is Thelema like a refined system like no other which, properly realized, replaces all others?
@Jim Eshelman said
"
What are you? A being or beings or just an idea?
...
Aleister Crowley is often misquoted as saying that the H.G.A. is a separate, objective being. In fact, his full statement was that the H.G.A. is a separate being in EXACTLY the same way that you and I are separate beings. - This raises the question: In what way are you and I separate beings?"I neglected to answer this before for some reason (accidental). There is a paradox that can't be too emphasized one way or the other, I think. (Like those bolds?
) On the one hand, we are all "vibrations of the One," as a mutual friend of ours once described the situation to me. On the other hand, Maya, the illusion, is a real thing: just as the experience of a mirage in a desert is a real experience. The water may not be real in the mirage and the illusion of Maya may not be the ultimate reality, but both are real. The illusion of separateness is real; in fact it is so real, one can live several lifetimes without ever suspecting there is Unity beyond the separation. There must be a reason for this and that reason seems to me to be related to Crowley's 0=2 theory, as one way of explaining it.My more simple way of thinking about the Big Picture is that all possibilities are permutated to failure; everything balancing out, all concepts taken to the utmost logical extreme. Within these concepts and extremes is a spark of God, but that does not mean the extremes don't exist, nor does it mean that because God is not specifically found SOMEWHERE that God does not exist. In my reasoning, proof that God exists is EVERYWHERE and all manner of variety his face. As much as you or I are separate from each other (and we are, just look at our conversation), we are United (and we are, just look at our conversation). So, Aiwaz being just as separate as you or I, to me, means he is quite separate indeed. I take this to mean he is an entity with incredible power, able to take many forms among men, as he chooses. I suspect he could easily call himself by many names as well.