Satan ... key to the Great Work?
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@Malaclypse said
"The power presented by Satan is too strong for most to handle without hurting themselves so therefore it's important to learn how to handle it. Thusly it's been veiled in most theologies throughout the years under an evil symbolism so the profane will stay away."
I think you're on to something - because this is close to my thoughts on it
But I put a different spin on it.It appears to me that the Four Great Princes of the Evil of the World (so-called) - Lucifer, Satan, Leviathan, and Belial - are the four Archangels of the Elements of a much earlier stage of the human race's evolution. They aren't "evil" so much as they are mismatched to the archetecture of our psyches. We can realign our psyches to respond to them, but that requires truly stepping back to an extremely primitive evolutionary state - which passes (rather reasonably) for "degeneration" etc.
In this sense, they truly are inimical to the normal human condition. But, having attained the K&C of the HGA, they become accessible on different terms, and consistent with a developmental state which appropriately and safely will begin exploring (among other things) its own distantly primitive roots (the Root Consciousness of Geburah, etc.).
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@Jim Eshelman said
"We can realign our psyches to respond to them, but that requires truly stepping back to an extremely primitive evolutionary state - which passes (rather reasonably) for "degeneration" etc.
In this sense, they truly are inimical to the normal human condition. But, having attained the K&C of the HGA, they become accessible on different terms, and consistent with a developmental state which appropriately and safely will begin exploring (among other things) its own distantly primitive roots (the Root Consciousness of Geburah, etc.)."
Aha, interesting. But is that in agreement with the theory that the presently worshipped god/s and arhangels are products of an insane (non functioning, that causes unnecessary suffering etc) mind then? This may be obvious from what I said in the last post, but I mean of course that a system begun in error must be abolished, that what manifests will always be on the wrong track. The god who said "thou shall have no other gods before me" was, according to the aforementioned theory, egomaniacal in doing so, since the universe needs two main principles to continue to exist (Yin/Yang fluctuation).
And furthermore, I would be more than interested to get some explanation as to how this madness or error occurred with the god presently worshipped in Christianity. The source I found this theory in didn't say anything very extensively.
Another question: it's said that Parmenides got in contact with something he termed "the goddess" who revealed to him that the universe isn't really dividing into bits, but always stays the same (which would seem to contradict what the god in Genesis seems to be about - material divination). Who was the goddess in terms of magick and was she also trying to save us from the fall (damn, just come up with more questions as I write, but: is the fall as 'the fall into material divination' a good explanation?)?
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I don't buy the "mad God" theory in that sense. Anything that can truly be called "God" is Atziluthic - and is "mad" only in the sense that human reason is incapable of surviving in its direct presence. That is, we may be mad in its presence - if we try to hold reason - but nothing Atziluthic is, itself, mad.
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I see, so would you agree more if I said that balance between the two opposites (as e.g. translated to our logical and abstract cerebral hemispheres) are what gives most benefit?
Let me get another thing straight too. The Abramelin ritual. Is that what it means to bring up the forces of hell and control them under the Will of the HGA? In that case the person itself should be in the middle of heaven and hell in the highest manifestation of the two possible, right? -
The way this conversation has turned seems to be in line with something I recently posted elsewhere regarding the Gnostics (someone had asked what the "Demiurge" is):
In some Gnostic traditions, YHVH is God of creation that could see no
God but himself, so he came to think of himself as the only God. He is
responsible for creating matter, which is associated with Saturn and
Satan, Maya and the Devil, interestingly enough.However, without Reality, ideas are abstractions of no consequence.
The Soul, to be Real, is "chained to matter." This is why certain
things are "bound to happen" (as the people are bound to the throne of
the Devil in Key 15) and why some ideas just "don't matter" (they are
"immaterial.") in the long run.In my humble opinion, it is best to take all creation myths NOT at
face value and NOT with a grain of salt, but to analyze them and
scrutinize them intensely. It was only yesterday that I discovered
that Sulphur, associated with the stench of hell and the Devil, is
also the color of the Sun. If I remember correctly, it also burns
leaving "white earth" (ash) or "purified earth" rather than "black
earth". The symbolism here represents a paradox: the flame of dynamism
(life power) that is controlled by the will ...OR... the flame of
passions that overwhelm the will and turn into "possession." In this
sense, the twin flame is a representation of both Satan and Christ.To reply to myself, I forgot to mention one thing in this line of
thought: there is a history of solar gods being nailed or chained to
matter, as Jesus was nailed to the cross. Nail = Vav (6). Vav is
represented by the Man in Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh (Lion-Eagle-Man-Bull) and
Yod, the Flame, represented by the Lion. What else has been associated
with the Lion? Fire and the Serpent. Yod is the primary shape from
which all the other Hebrew letter forms were made. This is why it is
sometimes refered to as the "flame alphabet." -
@Redd Fezz said
"However, without Reality, ideas are abstractions of no consequence.
The Soul, to be Real, is "chained to matter." This is why certain
things are "bound to happen" (as the people are bound to the throne of
the Devil in Key 15) and why some ideas just "don't matter" (they are
"immaterial.") in the long run."Thanks for this explanation! (Even if it's of use to others as well I'm still grateful, not just egocentric. =))
But how does matter have a bearing on a subject's continuity?@Redd Fezz said
"In my humble opinion, it is best to take all creation myths NOT at
face value and NOT with a grain of salt, but to analyze them and
scrutinize them intensely. It was only yesterday that I discovered
that Sulphur, associated with the stench of hell and the Devil, is"But wouldn't the best way to approach anything be inside a balance of critical analyzis and an open mind? There are ways to see coherent patterns in just about anything ime.
Could anyone answer my most important question about Satan, please? Why worship Satan instead of something presently considered "good"? Why do Thelemites do it? Why is it inevitable not to according to Crowley? I didn't understand the things said about it in Book 4 because of my lacking symbol skills.
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@Malaclypse said
"Could anyone answer my most important question about Satan, please? Why worship Satan instead of something presently considered "good"? Why do Thelemites do it?"
Thelemites don't worship Satan.
Individual Thelemites (like individual Christians, Jews, or whatever) may worship Satan, but Thelemites per se don't worship Satan.
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Ah, my bad, of course. But what is the point of doing it then? All I know is Crowley mentioned something about something being impossible to achieve without either making use of him or worship of him.
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@Malaclypse said
"But what is the point of doing it then?"
You'd have to find someone who does it.
"All I know is Crowley mentioned something about something being impossible to achieve without either making use of him or worship of him."
Nope. No such statement known to me.
Also, Crowley's statements about Satan here and there should be put in the same perspective as his other statements that he was a profoundly committed Christian.
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@Malaclypse said
"
But how does matter have a bearing on a subject's continuity?"The best way I can explain it is the idea of the "fall from heaven" from a psychological perspective. As an idea becomes focused, it congeals from abstract formlessness to "earth." Time and space are qualities of earth. From a loftier perspective, you can see more, but you are further removed and it is less "real"... especially without a corporeal body to sense, feel and relate to.
Just watching the news is somewhat of an example: though it is not exactly a "view from above," it does exist more in the mental plane for the viewer in many cases moreso than physical reality. The news is real life, but unless it's the local news and you actually care what goes on in your town, it is easy to ignore and sometimes even difficult to relate to, even if it is "real." Hearing of a war in Iraq might affect us mentally, but in many cases, we can ignore the reality of it. BEING in the war in Iraq is a completely different reality.
Speaking of examples, analogies themselves are examples. Until abstract ideas are related to in TERMS WE CAN UNDERSTAND, they remain abstract. Analogies are real-life situations we can relate to which have a similarity to the concept being expressed. These real-life situations are grounded in earth; it is a way to bring the abstract "down to earth," as they say.
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"But in the first we came to a mighty throne of gray granite, shaped like the sweetest pussy cat you ever saw, and set up on a desolate heath. It was midnight, and the Devil came down and sat in the midst; but my Fairy Prince whispered: "Hush! It is a great secret, but his name is Yeheswah, and he is the Saviour of the World." And that was very funny, because the girl next me thought it was Jesus Christ, till another Fairy Prince (my Prince's brother) whispered as he kissed her: "Hush, tell nobody ever, that is Satan, and he is the Saviour of the World."
We were a very great company, and I can't tell you of all the strange things we did and said, or of the song we sang as we danced face outwards in a great circle ever closing in on the Devil on the throne. But whenever I saw a toad or a bat, or some horrid insect, my Fairy Prince always whispered: "It is the Saviour of the World," and I saw that it was so. We did all the most beautiful wicked things you can imagine, and yet all the time knew they were good and right, and must be done if ever we were to get to the House of Gold. So we enjoyed ourselves very much and ate the most extraordinary supper you can think of. There were babies roasted whole and stuffed with pork sausages and olives; and some of the girls cut off chops and steaks from their own bodies, and gave them to a beautiful white cook at a silver grill, that was lighted with the gas of dead bodies and marshes; and he cooked them splendidly, and we all enjoyed it immensely. Then there was a tame goat with a gold collar, that went about laughing with everyone; and he was all shaved in patches like a poodle. We kissed him and petted him, and it was lovely. You must remember that I never let go of my Fairy Prince for a single instant, or of course I should have been turned into a horrid black toad.
Konx Om Pax ~ Aleister Crowley. "
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@Her said
"
"But in the first we came to a mighty throne of gray granite, shaped like the sweetest pussy cat you ever saw, and set up on a desolate heath. It was midnight, and the Devil came down and sat in the midst; but my Fairy Prince whispered: "Hush! It is a great secret, but his name is Yeheswah, and he is the Saviour of the World." And that was very funny, because the girl next me thought it was Jesus Christ, till another Fairy Prince (my Prince's brother) whispered as he kissed her: "Hush, tell nobody ever, that is Satan, and he is the Saviour of the World."We were a very great company, and I can't tell you of all the strange things we did and said, or of the song we sang as we danced face outwards in a great circle ever closing in on the Devil on the throne. Butwhenever I saw a toad or a bat, or some horrid insect, my Fairy Prince always whispered: "It is the Saviour of the World," and I saw that it was so. We did all the most beautiful wicked things you can imagine, and yet all the time knew they were good and right, and must be done if ever we were to get to the House of Gold. So we enjoyed ourselves very much and ate the most extraordinary supper you can think of. There were babies roasted whole and stuffed with pork sausages and olives; and some of the girls cut off chops and steaks from their own bodies, and gave them to a beautiful white cook at a silver grill, that was lighted with the gas of dead bodies and marshes; and he cooked them splendidly, and we all enjoyed it immensely. Then there was a tame goat with a gold collar, that went about laughing with everyone; and he was all shaved in patches like a poodle. We kissed him and petted him, and it was lovely. You must remember that I never let go of my Fairy Prince for a single instant, or of course I should have been turned into a horrid black toad.
Konx Om Pax ~ Aleister Crowley. "
"Would you explain what it is you like about this quote? I'm having trouble interpreting it. But, I can see why it seems the study of the occult produces people like Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz and Hitler among dozens of other lesser-known screw-ups. It can be argued these people were already "screwed up" before they got into the occult or it can be argued that they weren't "screwed up" at all and that I am just an old fuddy duddy stuck in a silly morality system.
I think I'm pro-Thelema, which to me means I don't believe in murder or cannibalism or lying or manipulation, if at all possible. I believe that it is nobody's True Will to be killed or tortured; instinct overrides self-conscious errors of judgement and the only time instinct kicks in to sacrifice itself is in a split-second decision to save someone ELSE. True Will is self-preservation and preservation of life in relation to oneself: anything we care about and feel sympathy for, we want to preserve. What about self-injurers and S&M people? Errors of self-conscious reasoning, in my opinion.
Sure, Hitler wouldn't have succeeded without a throng of support, but that doesn't mean Hitler was a great guy or that he didn't deliberately manipulate the emotions of the people and, sadly, he found inspiration in works of the occult. Crowley seemed delighted that Hitler was utterly "demonic" and the "enemy of God." I don't understand why.
When creating material designed to educate and indoctrinate others, clear instruction seems the least one could do. Isn't this the basic problem people have with organized religions in the first place; that it contradicts itself and seems to urge people on to violence while promoting peace? Here, in the above quote, we have another sample of Crowley's that's probably tongue-in-cheek, yet possibly mindwarpingly pro-cannibalism. I am reminded of Crowley's diary entry regarding Jack The Ripper which so totally bizarre I can't even attempt to interpret it.
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I have made a related post on this topic under Jim's review for Elaine Pagels' "The Origin of Satan" book here: heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?t=341
After reading most of Pagels' book, I am confused as to what her ideas have to do with the ideas expressed on this thread. As far as I can tell, there is no overlap.