Victor Neuberg's & Crowley's initiations
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@Redd Fezz said
"Maybe the problem is that I'm confused on what "the record" is.
Who wrote all the stuff you posted on page one which described every bit of the ritual and quoted Victor? Who wrote it? Who made that "record?""
Ah, so you don't know how The Vision & the Voice was produced, is that it? Sorry, I thought you'd been reading about it.
While Crowley was on each vision, Victor was taking down a verbatim transcript of everything he said and of whatever happened. Victor and AC then, soon after each vision, reviewed this and Crowley wrote a copy off of Victor's notes. With minor editing, Crowley's copy became The Vision & the Voice. (During the 10th Aethyr - which is the one we're discussing here - there was a lot more physical stuff happening, so more was required than simply taking dictation!)
In the post you cite, the blue text is straight from the published version of the record.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Redd Fezz said
"Maybe the problem is that I'm confused on what "the record" is.Who wrote all the stuff you posted on page one which described every bit of the ritual and quoted Victor? Who wrote it? Who made that "record?""
Ah, so you don't know how The Vision & the Voice was produced, is that it? Sorry, I thought you'd been reading about it.
While Crowley was on each vision, Victor was taking down a verbatim transcript of everything he said and of whatever happened. Victor and AC then, soon after each vision, reviewed this and Crowley wrote a copy off of Victor's notes. With minor editing, Crowley's copy became The Vision & the Voice. (DCuring the 10th Aethyr - which is the one we're discussing here - there was a lot more physical stuff happening, so more was required than simply taking dictation!)"
Oh please! Like I have anything memorized.
Here are some of the highlights (quotes) of your previous posts:
• For the most part, we do not have a record of Aleister Crowley’s encounter with Choronzon
• But there is one detail the text does not give – which, in fact, Crowley went out of his way to obscure. It is virtually certain that Crowley placed himself in the triangle to serve as the living basis for the manifestation of Choronzon. That is, he invoked Choronzon into himself.
• What is truly extraordinary, though, is that Neuburg, even late in life, insisted to his intimates that this is not what happened – that he literally fought a demon in the desert that day.
Who is writing all this? And who cares what this person thinks? Not me! He was not there! Unless.. this is all the writing of Victor? If so, he needs to get one sense of authorship.
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Thank you. Now I have something to answer.
"Here are some of the highlights (quotes) of your previous posts:
• For the most part, we do not have a record of Aleister Crowley’s encounter with Choronzon"
Correct. Crowley wasn't saying anything. Read the Cry of the 10th Aethyr in The Vision & the Voice - unlike all 29 other chapters, this is not Crowley reciting the events that were occurring. He's deep in meditation, oblivious to everything going on. Victor is just continuing to take down what happened (which includes words coming out of Crowley's mouth as the voice of Choronzon). Read the actual record! It's one of the most widely available occult works ever.
"• But there is one detail the text does not give – which, in fact, Crowley went out of his way to obscure. It is virtually certain that Crowley placed himself in the triangle to serve as the living basis for the manifestation of Choronzon. That is, he invoked Choronzon into himself."
Technically a conclusion - although FWIW one that you started with also. The evidence is in the record, between the lines.
"• What is truly extraordinary, though, is that Neuburg, even late in life, insisted to his intimates that this is not what happened – that he literally fought a demon in the desert that day. "
From interviews with him by Jean Overton FUller in her seminal biography of Victor.
"Who is writing all this? And who cares what this person thinks? Not me! He was not there!"
OK. If you don't care what I think, I'll stop answering your questions. In fact, I'll take a few minutes and go back and delete other answers I've given you, which obviously are just a waste of space to you here.
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Oh, sorry Jim. I thought you were quoting something else. But, it is at least nice to know that this was your writing, which I initially understood to be the case, anyway. I don't mean to imply that your impressions are worthless, just that-- well, like I said-- you weren't there. Can't you see that? I'm sure all your ideas are very poignant and meaninful, with Qabalistic merit and everything, but you can't know what the hell was going on there in Victor's head or how "well" he did, can you?
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@Redd Fezz said
"Oh, sorry Jim. I thought you were quoting something else. But, it is at least nice to know that this was your writing, which I initially understood to be the case, anyway."
That probably would explain why I began the post saying, "Excerpts from my commentary on The Cry of the 10th Aethyr," right?
"I don't mean to imply that your impressions are worthless,"
You didn't imply that at all. Instead, you explicitly stated that you do not care what I think.
"just that-- well, like I said-- you weren't there. Can't you see that?"
Neither were you. Neither was the person you originally quoted. There were only two people there. My remarks are based entirely on the written record that they prepared together and an interview that one of them gave to his primary biographer.
Nonetheless, I'll now get out of your way and go back to deleting answers I've given you in other threads. (I got about a dozen of them deleted before you posted the above.)
"but you can't know what the hell was going on there in Victor's head or how "well" he did, can you?"
Of course I can tell how well he did! We have a record! We know, minute by minute, what he did. We...
...Erp. Excuse me. I slipped and started answering you again. Sorry. Won't happen again.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Redd Fezz said
"Oh, sorry Jim. I thought you were quoting something else. But, it is at least nice to know that this was your writing, which I initially understood to be the case, anyway."That probably would explain why I began the post saying, "Excerpts from my commentary on The Cry of the 10th Aethyr," right?
"Hey, so sue me for not noticing the word "my".
@Jim Eshelman said
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"I don't mean to imply that your impressions are worthless,"You didn't imply that at all. Instead, you explicitly stated that you do not care what I think. "
Yes, but that's different from implying your impressions are worthless, for I was making a specific comment relative to a specific experience.
@Jim Eshelman said
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"just that-- well, like I said-- you weren't there. Can't you see that?"Neither were you. Neither was the person you originally quoted. There were only two people there. My remarks are based entirely on the written record that they prepared together and an interview that one of them gave to his primary biographer."
Right. My remarks were based entirely on the record and my own imagination, too.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Nonetheless, I'll now get out of your way and go back to deleting answers I've given you in other threads. (I got about a dozen of them deleted before you posted the above.)"
Whatever you feel is the right thing to do.
@Jim Eshelman said
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"but you can't know what the hell was going on there in Victor's head or how "well" he did, can you?"Of course I can tell how well he did! We have a record! We know, minute by minute, what he did. We...
...Erp. Excuse me. I slipped and started answering you again. Sorry. Won't happen again."
No problem.
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Re-reading this whole mess in the light of day, I still don't see what the big deal was. I feel bad that I apparently seem to have hurt the feelings of a guy who's gone out of his way to help me and everyone understand Thelema. And since it's his forums, I guess I'll just be kind of backing off now. I"m not sure Crowley is a good fit for me, afterall, anyway.
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RF, 93,
How about just looking at all of this, and then quietly meditating on what the big deal was? Because obviously, it <b>was</b> a big deal, and therefore there's very valuable information in here for you - and about you. Don't post to the forum about it, or try to get conscious control over the data. Just let it stew just at the back of your consciousness for a few days.
One thing I do note is your reference to all the uncontrolled manifestations you mentioned in your J's Witnesses phase and in your occult work. That seems, to my eye, to relate somehow to your concern over such things happening in the Tunisian desert a century ago. I don't want to feed my own ideas in here, so I won't, other than saying I bet there's something of value to reflect on there.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"RF, 93,
How about just looking at all of this, and then quietly meditating on what the big deal was? Because obviously, it <b>was</b> a big deal, and therefore there's very valuable information in here for you - and about you. Don't post to the forum about it, or try to get conscious control over the data. Just let it stew just at the back of your consciousness for a few days.
One thing I do note is your reference to all the uncontrolled manifestations you mentioned in your J's Witnesses phase and in your occult work. That seems, to my eye, to relate somehow to your concern over such things happening in the Tunisian desert a century ago. I don't want to feed my own ideas in here, so I won't, other than saying I bet there's something of value to reflect on there.
93 93/93,
Edward"
I really don't think it was a big deal. That was my whole point in trying to get down to the nitty gritty of this whole situation. It sounds like Crowley tried to take the "quick and dirty" road to enlightenment and came back with ideas nobody had ever heard of before.
How it ties in with my JW history is really simple: if something goes flying across the room, I wouldn't expect whatever threw it to enlighten me. Same thing with the "demons in my head" remark (I was referring to magical operations combined with different psychedelics at different times); after enduring hours of fear and insanity, including all sorts of visions (and I really thought my life and mind were over), in the end I got through it. It certainly doesn't mean I knew what I was doing.
In fact, to give you an idea how MUCH I didn't know what I was doing, one semi-recent pathworking of Yesod (no psychedelics, I don't do them anymore) ended with alligators leaping out of the water, much to my surprise, slipping under my feet and running me into the sunrise like a pair of water skiis, but I had no clue Horus had any relation to Diana or Yesod or that he was ever pictured standing on the back of crocodiles! I only discovered that after some Googling trying to figure out wtf happened. Once I realized a definite experience was there, I actually <i>did</i> do a psychedelic ritual for the first time in YEARS on April Fool's day of this year using baby hawaiian rosewood seeds. I certainly felt like I went to the Abyss and back! It was horrific, but by the end I felt "reborn." It was very hard to put into words-- so I stopped trying! I've basically forgotten about it at this point. I have a theory that anything you forget isn't worth remembering. The idea that someone lived through a frightening demonic experience does not mean much to me, in general! Except, maybe, that they played with the bull and got the horns. Maybe play with something more friendly next time. Certainly, I wouldn't trust anything that resulted from the experience.
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It's funny to me that this thread at one time made mention of Jean Fuller's high opinion of Crowley and Victor Neuburg's long and successful career which led to his discovery of Dylan Thomas. Funny because if I didn't look her up, I wouldn't have known she apparently authored a book, which I've just ordered, called "The Magical Dilemma of Victor Neuburg," which explains the sordid details of their relationship based on the unpublished magical records of both Neuburg and Crowley... and that Neuburg left the A.'.A.'. when he concluded Crowley was insane.
P.S. #333 makes a good number for my final post on heruraha... sorry if I offended anyone and thanks to all who helped me to understand more and realize this is not the path for me. Finally!
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BABALON
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@Redd Fezz said
"What do you make of this guy's experiences with Crowley? Sounds like he was really put through the ringer!
www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/642011.html
According to this link, Crowley verbally, mentally, physically and sexually abused him. Neuberg wrote in his magical diary, that Crowley "is apparently a homo-sexual [sic] sadist.…He performed the ceremony with obvious satisfaction."
?"
was it Colin Wilson who said that Neuberg was the only person Crowley genuinely loved?
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@RifRaf said
"I was wondering how you (Jim) came to the conclusion that the name ZAX = Leo, Taurus, Earth? Z = Leo, A = Taurus, and X = Earth? Assuming this is how you would put this together, how does the lettering match with the Zodiac/Elemental correspondences?"
This has been gone over in a couple of places, including a table I put in No. 1 of Black Pearl. 16 of the Enochian letters are traditionally related to the 16 geomantic figures, which in turn have astrological correspondences. Crowley attributed the elements to the remaining letters. These became the template of his visions: He would formulate his "contact image" or "seed image" for the visions from the sequence or composite of these three ideas.
"Or is there an Enochian Correspondence chart or something I haven't seen yet?"
Apparently you haven't
"Basically I am just wondering how you came to that conclusion because it would be nice to construct the same for all Aethyrs, that is, sets of Trumps to meditate upon to get the "feeling" of an Aethyr."
Here's the table. (Note that Crowley did a few of the visions without his references with him, and he made a couple of accidental letter swaps.)
A Taurus
B Aries
C/K Fire
D Spirit
E Virgo
F Cauda Draconis
G Leo (Sun in N. Declination)
H Air
I/Y Sagittarius
L Cancer (Moon Waning)
M Aquarius
N Scorpio
O Libra
P Cancer (Moon Waxing)
Q Water
R Pisces
S Gemini
T Caput Draconis
U/V Capricorn
X Earth
Z Leo (Sun in S. Declination)
