Language barriers in thelema
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Asclepio, 93,
Demons inside? Choronzon? Isn't that going a bit far into desperation?
What I get from this is "competitiveness". You sound like you feel you have to prove Thelema is the best thing. "Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not overmuch!: (Liber L, III, v. 42).
Have you tried reversing this situation? That is, asking people what <i>their</i> idea of enlightenment or attainment is? And how they plan to achieve it? What feeling they have of personal development so far?
That has two effects: one is that they think you're really interesting, because you're talking about <i>them</i>; the other is, you can find out better where that individual's concerns lie, and thus see what kind of answer is useful - not what you personally feel you have to tell the world. One sign of attainment that I look for is other people's willingness to learn and to listen. People with some degree of attainment have trained themselves to listen - they're all ministers of Hoor-Paar-Kraat.
93 93/93,
Edward
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93,
One other obvious point: Liber L, II, vv 9-11. Thelema explicity embraces the fact of existence (not necessarily day-to-day living <i>within</i> existence though) as joyous. Buddhism is usually serious, as I've encountered it, even if not all Buddhists are morose. Perhaps that's because, as they overcome some of their identification with suffering (dukkha, the First Noble Truth), they start finding hints of joy?
" Being overwhelmed by anxiety and grief maybe I can't explain what I mean and feel properly"
That seems to be the real issue, yes? It's hard to expound joy when you're anxious. I speak from personal experience here, not some "Been there, overcome it all" perspective.
We can't be serious about joy, because it isn't serious at all. I have a suspicion that a huge number of people drawn to Thelema stumble when they come to joy. Joy is profoundly humbling to the ego, because it is something that comes in from 'outside'. It just is, like a gift that arrives. It inverts our normal perspectives, and threatens our egoic sense of autonomy. Many of us fight it to the death, even if we <i>say</i> we're embracing it. Seriously (pun intended), I've seen professed Thelemites go wide-eyed with panic at the mere idea they could be joyous.
Two I've known even ran off and became Buddhists!
93 93/93,
Edward
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LOL! Edward, you're right about the difficulty of embracing joy! Years ago, I remember wondering whether I would even be "me" if I weren't depressed. Would I become just like all those (possibly fictional) happy suburban shopping mall rats? This was long before I heard Jim describing our personalities as "T-shirts" that we wear over our inner star... I think Thelemites often have a hard time choosing joy because so many of us were or are "black sheep." We're different, perhaps have always been different, and long ago decided that we were going to embrace our outsider status and make it our own. A certain moroseness quite frequently accompanies this stance. We embrace the shadow; the things others don't want to look at or even acknowledge: death, pain, loneliness, sorrow...
This isn't always a bad thing: after all, if we weren't willing to be different, willing to be outsiders, willing to take a closer look at things we'd been told were "evil" (like magick, the occult, and Crowley for example) we'd have never made it to this forum or to the rest of the Work....
On the other hand, there's no reason why one can't be an outsider and joyful too. One just tends not to be joyful about the same things as the other sheep...
Basically, we all have to eventually give up our attachments to get through the gate. As Jim was saying recently, you don't have to give up everything you own, but you have to be willing to give it up, to get past a certain point (certainly not right at the beginning)... For some of us outsiders, that means in part that we have to be willing to share some qualities with those insiders that we've been resenting and feeling superior to all these years. For the "insiders," the reverse applies.
Well, I've drifted off topic as usual...
I did want to say that I agree with asclepio about the difficulty of explaining Thelema. I remember when I first started reading about Thelema... the various descriptions of Thelemic beliefs and practices that I read at first sounded so vague and eclectic... honestly they sounded wishy-washy to me back then. "What do you believe?" "Well, we believe that everyone is a star and has their own path to follow; we can't tell them what that is, but we recommend these various practices to start finding it." What? Coming from my background in Christianity and Islam, that sounded like someone was dodging the question. "There is no God but God and Muhammad is His messenger." Now, that's a statement of belief, according to my thinking at the time.
I certainly don't think that way anymore, but I remember that there was a really tall hurdle for me to get over in understanding what Thelema was about. I felt an internal drive to pursue this path and so I did... but I did not have a conscious, intellectual understanding of it for quite a long time...
I think if I were going to explain Thelema to someone today, I might begin by saying that it brings the lessons of Taoism to the roots of Western consciousness. What does that mean? Taoists hold the view that the ultimate reality is the Tao, which is "the mysterious natural order of the Universe," beyond all description; not nothingness, but "everythingness." The Tao contains divisions within itself; firstly yin and yang, which were created by the division of the Tao (0=2). These divisions are in constant dynamic balance with each other, and both from the same source. The Taoist seeks to find a path in life which is in line with the current of the Tao; he/she seeks to bring the opposites within themselves to balance, as the yin and the yang in the Tao, and she desires a quality of "spontaneity" which is unconditioned and uninfluenced, being nothing more than itself. (As you can see, very similar to Thelemic ideas...) So, why not be Taoist? Here's the main reason, IMHO, and the reason why I would explain Thelema as "bringing Taoism to the Western roots." All of us raised in the West (or in the Middle East, or any region influenced by the Abrahamic faiths) carry within us very powerful archetypes created by the monotheistic, dualistic faiths and the cultures which have grown up around them. Archetypes such as God, Jesus, the Devil, salvation, damnation, the redemption of sins, heaven, hell, angels and demons, and so many more. These archetypes and their numinous power (my favorite Jung word!) don't go away just because we decide that we're converting to Taoism or Buddhism or any other "foreign" faith that doesn't engage our own native archetypes. You can sit and meditate in a Buddhist monastery for years, but God and the Devil in the forms that you learned in Sunday school are still going to be roaming around in your subconscious, kicking up dust and wreaking havoc when you least expect it. You have to go after them where they live, not just cover them up with a new religion. And that's just what Thelema does. And that's why it's so scary. Because now you're going to take the Tao and the yin and the yang and apply that to your Christian beliefs, so that "God" and "the Devil" just turn out to be two aspects of the Whole, both necessary and both in ever-changing dynamic balance. It's only Thelema that can actually heal the archetypical wounds of our collective subconscious and bring us back to spontaneous unity with the All.
sigh anyway, thanks for letting me share my thoughts...
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93,
Fra. S.P.Q.R. wrote:
"I disagree with you. Joy, bliss, do not humble the ego. They are emotions emanating from the very summit of the ego. "
I find many of your comments on this forum hard to grasp. You employ a private set of concepts from which, apparently, you derive your views, and the rest of us must strive to guess at your meaning. This, as I've watched the discussions, seems to include a pass-fail factor: if people don't guess your meaning as you intended, we fail.
Okay, I've failed before, and lived. So...
The ego, as I understand it, is a mental construct, a functional fiction whose best use is as an interface between one part of the universe (a human being, whatever that really is) and everything else in the universe. There is also, I realize, another use of ego where it refers to Individuality rather than the personal level of things, but that is usually capitalized as Ego. But the idea that emotions are *produced *by it makes no sense to me.
The exact sources of emotion vary. Some are purely animal (Oh good, they're finally serving the food) up to highly spiritualized realizations (That was a beautiful and uplifting ritual). The latter may originate from the Neshamah, but I'd hardly use the term 'ego' to describe that.
More to the point, though, "Remember all ye that existence is pure joy" (Cap I, v. 9, Liber L) is not, in my view, a statement to the effect that "You will feel happy," except in a very secondary sense. Existence itself is joyous. Joy is foundational to the Universe, a pre-existent fact to be discovered. I can be aware of this and remain in my own conscious misery (looking and being ridiculous, of course) but that doesn't deny the basic fact of creation. Creation is having fun, it's just the bit that self-identifies as 'me' that has a problem to work out.
In facing that openly, I think the ego (or the Ego) is profoundly humbled. Our most pretentious miseries and disdain just don't cut it any more.
"Give people a reason to fill a void in their often sufferable lives, and a want for a revolt against an onslaught of lies geared to govern the people, it was hoped, will slip past the radar. "
I don't think it's that bad, nor need it be. And a <i>belief</i> in joy, even if it's not felt on all levels of being, is one antidote to such world-weary pessimism. Whereas brooding on it, or continually seeing it as threatening us all, surely feeds the possibility for such a condition to postpone our evolution.
Thelema, as I understand it, exists to undercut or by-pass this kind of Woe-unto-ye thinking, dismissing it as simply a bunch of victimish, leftover, Old-Aeon folk-folly. As it should!
93 93/93,
Edward
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Okay.
But before I start, I must begin. Crowley (and others) warn us again and again against getting stuck in one perspective, and any working Thelemite worth his/her salt (or sulphur, or mercury) goes through periodic reviews and upheavals. I have found that I've wasted immense amounts of time trying to find philosophically correct positions over the years. Connecting with the emotional realities, though (wherever emotions really originate), seems to circumvent a lot of my intellectual contortions and self-deceptions. I trust emotion as a less BS-prone guide to reality.
I do think you're underestimating people's ability to find their own way. A monotheist starting point is fine IMHO. I don't see why that has to be fundamentalist. Those of us still consciously dwelling below Briah-of-Tiphereth (let alone the Abyss) are dealing with a dualistic day-to-day reality, and adopting a kind of monotheism (I accept the HGA as my Lord/Lady & Savior ... for now, anyway) can be a useful step.
In fact, I think fulfilling that perspective, completing that understanding of our reality, has to be completed before we can go on further.
Edward
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93 and thanks everyone!
First of all I never meant to take the "preaching" side as if we were mormons going from door to door and going "did you hear the good news? the Beast has been awaken and the sacred whore awaits our presence!", the thing is I'm planning my thesis around Thelema, but not any kind of thesis but a philosophical thesis (that's what I'm studying) so it is necessary to employ clear terms from traditional philosophy, I've found Heidegger's approach to be very much in tune with the new Aeon, a couple of thigs still worries me, first off I can hardly understand half of the threads in this forum, it's like your speaking mandarin or something and I'm good at understanding stuff but your years ahead of me and if I want to prepare a thesis that pretty much defines my future philosophical career around Thelema I should be capable of sustaining a normal conversation on the other threads but I can't. Some studying and meditation will resolve that I'm sure, that or I could just go and ask even if I look a bit dumb in my messages.
Another thing I want to set straight is this, I have severe depression issues, and I don't mean the "I feel blue today" kind of depression, but a serious illness that twists my mind and hurts myself very deeply (it's chronic disease with suicidal tendencies, leaving me sicker and sicker each time, until one day I completely lose my mind and do something terrible). So excuse me if I can't embrace joy so easily, while I'm not depressed I do feel joy and comprehend the basis of existence as joy (I invoked Nuit not so long ago and had a clear perspective of this in a very radical way), but my illness steps in the way, so it's like trying to be in some form of race, but only having one leg, it's crooked and hard.
I get the "ego" part as t-shirts, this since I was a boy and deviced an artificial personality in a conscious way, in order to survive in the "social jungle", this artificial personality is what I usually refer as "me", but the original personality, the one I locked in the basement haunts me. Recently I've been able to "cut a deal" with this original "me", and we shared the same life together, this is were I found more joy and calm, I was a hermit of sorts, not normal in the "mainstream" fashion, but able to communicate and have a mentally healthy life, my disease unfortunely comes back (each time pushing my mind into madness, and I happen to love my mind so that's not good) and wreacks havok, it usually lasts a month or so, it's been a month (I think, my memory fails me while I'm sick, I can't tell what happened three days ago, and I mix up dates and such) so I'm hoping that the holidays will leave me some time to relax and get my mind back.
This I feel is an unfair side of thelema, it works for mentally stable people who can acheive a mental state of joy and are able to "look inside" their own minds without torturing themselves. I can't afford such luxuries, I know what's in my mind, I know what dwells in me, I don't take the manichean approach of saying "this and that is "evil" and I should feel ashamed", it's more an emotional torture each time I leave the "door" open for my illnes to come back. At least christians and muslims have the vague concept of "god's will" to simply blame the devil or god's mysterious ways for their setbacks, I'm a rational man and can not afford such beautiful folly and superstition.
Serpentine, I enjoyed your message deeply, the whole tao and difference with Taoism was very enlightining, "heal the archetypical wounds" Now that's a deep thought, you've given me a lot to think about, thanks.
93 93/93
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Asclepio, 93,
You said:
"This I feel is an unfair side of thelema, it works for mentally stable people who can acheive a mental state of joy and are able to "look inside" their own minds without torturing themselves."
A simple exercise that calms or centers you - simple in-out fourfold breathing, for example - would probably do no harm. Follow a slow breathing sequence of breath in, pause, breath out, relax, and don't worry about accomplishing anything more than staying with it for a set time of 10 to 15 minutes: less if you need to at first, more later. That might help the 'witness' in you step back a little from your up/down cycles.
Yes, there's a side to Thelema that is philosophically intense and complex. If you set yourself up to grasp all of that, or accomplish advanced states of samadhi, you will drive yourself down. If on the other hand, you accept (as you pretty much have to...) that your medical condition is the primary determining factor in working out your own karma and thus moving towards knowing your Will, then you may find a route to a certain amount of peace. That is, it's probably the path of the Devil (Ayin) for you - it ultimately veils the Redeemer, which for you might not produce "big" realizations, but can still offer <i>useful</i> ones.
Most of us at some stage hit up against a wall, and have to recognize that we may get past it, but it's going to be a long journey to do so. Simply hanging in, and coming back again when we lose track, can be a key skill.
93 93/93,
Edward
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93 Edward,
"A simple exercise that calms or centers you - simple in-out fourfold breathing, for example - would probably do no harm. Follow a slow breathing sequence of breath in, pause, breath out, relax, and don't worry about accomplishing anything more than staying with it for a set time of 10 to 15 minutes: less if you need to at first, more later. That might help the 'witness' in you step back a little from your up/down cycles. "
Thanks for the advice, I'll try and do it. I already have some exercises for when I feel I'm touching bottom, I stare at a point in space and think nothing, free my mind and calm down. I'll try this breathing exercise.
"Yes, there's a side to Thelema that is philosophically intense and complex. If you set yourself up to grasp all of that, or accomplish advanced states of samadhi, you will drive yourself down. If on the other hand, you accept (as you pretty much have to...) that your medical condition is the primary determining factor in working out your own karma and thus moving towards knowing your Will, then you may find a route to a certain amount of peace. "
Yep, that's pretty much all I've got left, deal with my condition at the best of my abilities, let the storm pass and go back to the path.
"That is, it's probably the path of the Devil (Ayin) for you - it ultimately veils the Redeemer, which for you might not produce "big" realizations, but can still offer <i>useful</i> ones."
Since I made a determination to ask when I don't understand concepts, could you explain what the "path of the Devil (Ayin)" is?, or where can I find information on this subject? Thanks for the advice, I'm always looking for advice from fellow thelemites with more experience than me.
"Most of us at some stage hit up against a wall, and have to recognize that we may get past it, but it's going to be a long journey to do so. Simply hanging in, and coming back again when we lose track, can be a key skill."
Another question, I was practicing magickal operations (nothing fancy, I pretty much created my own rituals and invocations and so on) before getting depressed (the reason of the recurrence of my illness is not that, it's something else). But now that I'm in this mess I stopped all magickal exercises, my question is, is this a good decision? The reason I stopped is because it would consume a lot of energy, energies that I don't have a lot and need to survive this depression.
Thanks for your help,
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Asclepio, 93,
"Yep, that's pretty much all I've got left, deal with my condition at the best of my abilities, let the storm pass and go back to the path.
"One of the most difficult but important lessons I keep re-learning (and, obviously, forgetting again) is that the "Stuff I have to do so I can get back to my path" often <i>is</i> the path. You aren't, from your own account, apparently on the fast-track to the K&C. On the other hand, you aren't just giving up. So for now, your battle with depression <b>is</b> your path, according to the karma you say you're experiencing.
I mentioned the path of Ayin, the Devil, because you're clearly dealing with a 'demon' , a private Devil, in the depression. The Devil is never defeated - rather, it is co-opted. There is some aspect of the True Will being expressed even in the bleakest, most horrible aspects of our lives, and the Devil teaches that. People who go through a major bereavement eventually find this - the private agony is dreadful, yet it's a key part of the life-process, not a sidetrack or a distraction.
Part of the private pain you mention here is your self-flagellation (psychologically speaking) when you get depressed. As I'm sure you've been told, anger and depression are like mismatched twins - they're intimately inked. I can only point out that punishing yourself for getting depressed likely would intensify the pain. There is a teaching somewhere in the depression, even if it's 'just' about patience. Which is, again, where the path of the Devil becomes relevant. Trying ferociously to re-mold ourselves simply doesn't work, and may produce an even deeper sense of failure and frustration with self.
I'm cautious about recommending specific magical exercises - not because I think they're a bad idea, but because I'm in no position to offer much guidance. I mentioned the fourfold breathing, which Israel Regardie wrote about, because it's simple and it's centring in its effect. The 'witness', who is beyond the self-destruction you describe, can be reinforced through it.
If you have the energy, and it doesn't leave you feeling worse, stick with basic banishing or middle pillar work. You sound like you need to shift your attitude to the depression. So if I were banishing in your condition, I would want to banish self-loathing, not the depression itself.
93 93/93,
Edward
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93 Edward,
" One of the most difficult but important lessons I keep re-learning (and, obviously, forgetting again) is that the "Stuff I have to do so I can get back to my path" often is the path. You aren't, from your own account, apparently on the fast-track to the K&C. On the other hand, you aren't just giving up. So for now, your battle with depression is your path, according to the karma you say you're experiencing. "
It's very interesting how many times we can't see the forest because of the trees, it IS the path, not a detour or bus stop, it's part of it. I guess the Path is a lot like life itself, life usually passes you by precisely when you're waiting for life, and it is full when you're not to busy looking for it. Thanks for the kind words, I'm glad to say I'm on my final stages of my depression, surely in the holydays I'll be back to normal and the storm will pass.
93 93/93
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I think the core solution is that "there is no difference". In pretty much all principles Thelema is a meeting point of spiritual techonolgies. Especially in Crowley's work where there is literally a dense smattering of all the data that he could access at his time and place in the universe. I can envision choosing any particular religious path, gutting it of the unecessary elements (guilt, superiorty, entitlement, etc...), and applying "Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under will.", and having an effective path to enlightenment. The beauty of the Religio-Philosophical nature of Thelema, is that it is subjective to a particular experience, so there is no one method, pantheon, or symbol set that can possibly contain the essential core elements of a personal science. I guess beyond decoding the deities in the Liber AL.
Life, Love, Liberty, Light
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@augur said
"I think the core solution is that "there is no difference". In pretty much all principles Thelema is a meeting point of spiritual techonolgies. Especially in Crowley's work where there is literally a dense smattering of all the data that he could access at his time and place in the universe. I can envision choosing any particular religious path, gutting it of the unecessary elements (guilt, superiorty, entitlement, etc...), and applying "Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under will.", and having an effective path to enlightenment. The beauty of the Religio-Philosophical nature of Thelema, is that it is subjective to a particular experience, so there is no one method, pantheon, or symbol set that can possibly contain the essential core elements of a personal science. I guess beyond decoding the deities in the Liber AL.
Life, Love, Liberty, Light"
Wow, I think you're right. At some point things get so confusing that is better to keep things simple and, like you say, realize that it's just a matter of gutting the unecessary elements, there is no "THE pantheon" or "THE mythology", it's up for the individual and that opens up to an infinite number of possibilities, infinite number of paths for each individual.Thanks,
93 93/93
