Breathing and Asana
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While seated in asana, I breath abdominally, like in zazen, so that I don't create any agitation by lifting my shoulders as I breath, like you do when you fill the middle and upper portions of the lungs. I sometimes breath fairly shallowly, without holding either the exhalations or inhalations. Other times, I breath much more fully, though still only abdominally, and do hold breaths. I do the latter when I want to follow my breaths as a point of focus (not pranayama).
Any suggestions on dealing with breathing during yoga as taught by Crowley?
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I'm not sure what your question is - since you seem to have this under control.
Abdominal breathing is the right way to do it. The diaphragm is controlled indirectly by this approach. Generally it should be quite full and deep, but, as you say, there are practices (such as witnessing breath only) where this isn't necessary (but is OK - I find that the act of witnessing the breath tends to have a Heisenbergian consequence of making the breathing much deeper).
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I'm not sure what your question is - since you seem to have this under control."
It heartens me that you think so. I've read/heard some insist on full, complete, and deep breaths. I don't really know why. I wondered if others here recommended that... or something else entirely.
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jmiller wrote:
"I've read/heard some insist on full, complete, and deep breaths. I don't really know why. I wondered if others here recommended that... or something else entirely."
One school of yoga recommends no holding of breath. The urge to breathe is triggered by rising carbon dioxide levels... nothing wrong with letting that out.
Alternation of inspiration and expiration will eventually, with practice, get you to a relaxed state of breathlessness.This is the primary purpose of pranayama. You calm the breath to calm the mind. Then you can meditate (or whatever).
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fra. spqr wrote:
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Yes but the Advaita Vedฤnta Yoga of Crowley does make use of kumbhaka, the suspension of breath in pranayama (though as I understand it not until the nadis are purified and sweat can be safely rubbed into the skin). It's the rise and the peak of carbon dioxide levels that causes the very distinct siddhi of the Zelator; the vacuum (NOX, Tzimtzum, &c.), which marks proficiency in pratyahara. "While it is true that Crowley includes kumbhaka in his instructions, Patanjali makes no mention of it (Nor does he mention Kundalini). In fact, he uses another word. Kumbhaka, in modern usage, is a misunderstanding of what 'suspension of breath' means.
*Patanjali refers to external (bahya), internal (abhyantara) and stationary (stambha) operation; meaning outbreath, inbreath and suspension. These terms do not have the same meaning as rechaka, puraka and kumbhaka, as in modern usage. Bahya refers to the outbreath followed by the natural pause (stambha) at the bottom of the breath. Rechaka is the expulsion of the breath; not quite the same as Bahya. In the same way kumbhaka is the intentional suppression of breath; stambha is the natural still point between the breaths. YSP *
On your CO2 remark: your comment has no logic to it. As I mentioned, high levels of carbon dioxide make you want to breathe. Pratyahara is the mind withdrawing from external stimuli, and focusing on the internal, so that senses are withdrawn. You can't withdraw if you feel like choking.
The perspiration that occurs during practice of pranayama is not caused by CO2 or lactic acid, and will occur without holding of breath.
When starting any serious work in yoga, and magick, for that matter, it is important to get competent instructors/gurus for the correct transmission of teachings, otherwise injury may result.
I recommend comparing several commentaries on the Yoga Sutras; there are quite a few available online.
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fra spqr wrote:
"If it's to be read as you'd have us read it then you have to admit that suspension of the breath isn't likely to occur, naturally, while attempting to have any control over the process of breathing. "
I can't agree with you; it goes against the evidence of my experience. You can have control without force. In fact, I have found it much easier to approach this state than when I was practicing intentional suspension of breath. The latter is mechanical and strenuous, the former natural and easy.
I don't recognize the Sannyasi you quoted in a previous post as an authority. I began reading Vishnudevananda when I started practicing yoga; I respect his work and believe it was a good contribution, but on this subject I firmly believe he is wrong.
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that kumbhaka is a corruption of the original teachings. Having practiced both methods, I know what works best for me.
To paraphrase a quote from Jim's MMAA, Crowley while advising students not to strain while performing pranayama, clearly did strain himself as evidenced by his journal entries. Thus, he may have exacerbated his asthma.
"Paramahansa Yogananda advocated what you reference, but he excluded alternate nostril breathing. Then, though, he incorporated Kriyas as a supplement practice. "
To clarify: Yogananda does include alternate nostril breathing. At least this is the case with his SRF organization.
Now we are getting off topic, but there is something to say about interpretation of words. Kriya does not mean the same thing to Yogananda as it does to Vishnudevananda. This is where much confusion arises. For Yogananda and his lineage it means "action with awareness," but Vishudevananda uses it to mean 'purification exercises." In addition, Yogananda geared his instructions to Christian Americans, and much that he learned from his guru was left out.
Have you, Fra. SPQR, found that kumbhaka is superior to stambha in your own practice?
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@Draco Magnus said
"Kriya does not mean the same thing to Yogananda as it does to Vishnudevananda. This is where much confusion arises. For Yogananda and his lineage it means "action with awareness," but Vishudevananda uses it to mean 'purification exercises." In addition, Yogananda geared his instructions to Christian Americans, and much that he learned from his guru was left out."
But isn't that the same thing in action in the end? I see an act of purification as acting with awareness, because awareness about things purifies one's connection to them, right?
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@Draco Magnus said
"Kriya does not mean the same thing to Yogananda as it does to Vishnudevananda. This is where much confusion arises. For Yogananda and his lineage it means "action with awareness," but Vishudevananda uses it to mean 'purification exercises." In addition, Yogananda geared his instructions to Christian Americans, and much that he learned from his guru was left out."
But isn't that the same thing in action in the end? I see an act of purification as acting with awareness, because awareness about things purifies one's connection to them, right?
And a question on the subject of the thread: is Crowley's breathing method as given in Eight Lectures on Yoga recommendable? He only gives the reason that it "seems one loses power by not exhaling longer than inhaling", but no explanation to that, and it seems to me when I use it, that it doesn't give the balance needed to forget about the breathing process.
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Malaclypse wrote:
"But isn't that the same thing in action in the end? I see an act of purification as acting with awareness, because awareness about things purifies one's connection to them, right? "
I think it sounds close philosophically, but not practically (ie. not when practicing the different technique).
"And a question on the subject of the thread: is Crowley's breathing method as given in Eight Lectures on Yoga recommendable? He only gives the reason that it "seems one loses power by not exhaling longer than inhaling", but no explanation to that, and it seems to me when I use it, that it doesn't give the balance needed to forget about the breathing process."
One of the benefits of practicing pranayama is that you learn how different ways of breathing affect your body and mind. As a simple example, if you inhale regularly, and exhale quickly, you begin to mimic the way you breathe when you sleep, and you will begin to feel sleepy.
If you know how it's affecting you, you will know when and how to apply it or not.
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@Draco Magnus said
"I think it sounds close philosophically, but not practically (ie. not when practicing the different technique)."
Ah, so that purification exercises are more like sitting in zazen and actions with awareness are more the mindful awareness of the present when you cut the rose bushes?
@Draco Magnus said
"One of the benefits of practicing pranayama is that you learn how different ways of breathing affect your body and mind. As a simple example, if you inhale regularly, and exhale quickly, you begin to mimic the way you breathe when you sleep, and you will begin to feel sleepy.
If you know how it's affecting you, you will know when and how to apply it or not."
Thanks! But hm, isn't the aim always to "get out" when doing yoga?
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Malaclypse wrote:
"Ah, so that purification exercises are more like sitting in zazen and actions with awareness are more the mindful awareness of the present when you cut the rose bushes? "
Well, 'purification exercises' from Vishnudevananda's book include swallowing
some strand of cloth a few feet long and then pulling it out, for the purpose of cleansing the stomach, or similar practices with the nasal cavities. All these physical body cleansings are called 'kriyas.'Malaclypse wrote:
"Thanks! But hm, isn't the aim always to "get out" when doing yoga?"
Not sure what you mean by "get out"?
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@Draco Magnus said
"Not sure what you mean by "get out"?"
*On the 'terrasse' of the Cafe des Deux Magots it was once necessary to proclaim the entire doctrine of Yoga in the fewest possible words 'with a shout, and with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.' St. Paul's First Epistle to the Thessalonians, the Fourth Chapter and the Sixteenth Verse. I did so.
'Sit still. Stop thinking. Shut up. Get out!'*
Eight Lectures on Yoga ~ Crowley
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@Draco Magnus said
"Well, 'purification exercises' from Vishnudevananda's book include swallowing some strand of cloth a few feet long and then pulling it out, for the purpose of cleansing the stomach, or similar practices with the nasal cavities. All these physical body cleansings are called 'kriyas.'"
gasps Then I see the difference.
@Draco Magnus said
"Not sure what you mean by "get out"?"
Yes, what Heru cited fits excellently with my meaning.
Thanks again! And merry yule everyone here!
