new aeon
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I think you fail to understand that the brain is a material devise that stores and processes patterns of semantic associations (information).
That what you call spirit is a process that occurs in the function of the brain matter as it is stimulated by material patterns, which the brain processes by way of innate and learned associations of information.
You propose that there is a world of software which has no material medium. That is that to stick with the computer analogy, you believe your hard drive is backed up is anther dimension the astral plane, and can manifest itself in another computer at the destruction of the current one.
It may comfort you to believe in the spirit world and that your Atman can travel through the ether and attach itself to an unborn child, but this does not happen.
However, With advanced technology we can make these dreams of an astral plane, afterlife and mind backed up in machines a Reality.
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@Froclown said
"It may comfort you to believe in the spirit world and that your Atman can travel through the ether and attach itself to an unborn child, but this does not happen. "
You're so absolutist! Whence comes your authority to make this blanket assertion, sir?
Dan
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As for this Neo-Berkly approach to idealism vs materialism.
In truth both ideas (forms spirits etc) and matter exist as semantic place holders in the mind.
However, I can deduce and have direct evidence (and understanding of the processes) by which material structures can create semantic associations and information. Whereas I have no ability to derive a method or any evidence that spiritual notions or semantic associations can percipitate into physical entities.
In fact a non-material something is not a thing at all. The best one can do to explain a non-material entity is a semantic place holder, that allows for the identification of a material being. Or its construction from parts. That place holder is itself a pattern of matter in the brain.
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Where comes your authority to decide that I am absolutist, or that I make blanket statements.
Where comes your authority to even know what a statement is, to have a concept of authority?
Who gives you the authority to hold any position rather than its opposite?
Absurdity!
When my thought match the evidence presented by the pre-existing external, material, physical, world of which I am a mere piece, Then I speak truth.
When my perceptions have a semantic content that does not reflect events in space-time, then I am mistaken.
Souls are not made ot atoms, are not in space-time and thus they are semantic entities (imaginary).
On this ground I stake my claims, not on some proposed authority that grants be the right to hold a notion as TRUE.
Truth is discovered not created, fabricated or granted on behalf of an authority!
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@Froclown said
"That what you call spirit is a process that occurs in the function of the brain matter as it is stimulated by material patterns, which the brain processes by way of innate and learned associations of information. "
I understand that this is what you think. However, you're simply wrong.
Since you are a committed materialist, it does me no good to discuss this further with you. From where I sit, that's about the most absurd and dysfunctional world view a person could have for any purpose other than surviving in an immediate day-to-day environment. Your previous post was enormously valuable because you gave me the chance to dispute common misinformation and wrong thinking.
You are a blind man claiming there is no sight. In time, if you follow the right paths, you will have the chance to gain sight and see things with your own eyes. Until that time, it's probably more honest of you to be at least a nominal materialist, because that's the only aspect of reality you've been able to experience.
But, I assure you that what I call "spirit" above exists as the formative and root principle of reality - physical or sensory material reality is its product and exists in service to it.
"You propose that there is a world of software which has no material medium."
In this case, the hardware is output of the software, yes. The computer analogy simply doesn't apply.
"you believe your hard drive is backed up is anther dimension the astral plane, and can manifest itself in another computer at the destruction of the current one. "
Nope. The computer analogy doesn't apply. You'll confuse yourself more the more you think in those terms. There's no need for backup. What you are is eternal.
"It may comfort you to believe in the spirit world and that your Atman can travel through the ether and attach itself to an unborn child, but this does not happen. "
It's not a matter of belief. It's a matter of direct experience. And what you deny does, in fact, happen routinely. (How in the world can you assert it doesn't happen! I really got a majorly good laugh out of that one!)
You might as well be standing on my sidewalk looking up at the night sky and telling me there has never been a daytime and there is no such thing as the Sun - just because you have always slept through the day.
In any case - on the topic of your narrowly materialistic view of reality, I won't bother answering you anymore. It will no good to discuss with you much of anything that this forum is about, given that particular framing of your world view.
"However, With advanced technology we can make these dreams of an astral plane, afterlife and mind backed up in machines a Reality."
:newbie: -
@Froclown said
"I have no ability to derive a method or any evidence that spiritual notions or semantic associations can percipitate into physical entities. "
I'm certain you don't. We agree that you don't.
"In fact a non-material something is not a thing at all."
In the usual, day-to-day meaning of "material," that's not true.
I do think it's ultimately true, because we define "matter" or "material" according to the substance of the plane on which a thing exists. Thought is composed of Yetziratic substance, for example - and it is as real and substantial as physical matter. The same is true of the fabric of the World of Briah. (That's why I keep distinguishing the different meanings of "matter.")
"The best one can do to explain a non-material entity is a semantic place holder, that allows for the identification of a material being."
I half agree with you. That is, I believe that's the best you can do.
You're so stuck in the mental model that you're running, that you can't even see it.
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@Froclown said
"You propose that there is a world of software which has no material medium. That is that to stick with the computer analogy, you believe your hard drive is backed up is anther dimension the astral plane, and can manifest itself in another computer at the destruction of the current one."
I'll let Jim speak for himself, but most of his long replies seem to be consistent with my own mainly materialist leanings (at least how I've always interpreted the term "materialist"). I'll hazard a guess that nearly all of the experiences undertaken by an aspirant to, say, the A.'.A.'. do not require a Firm Belief in the existence of spirit as "another dimension;" i.e., as a real, physical thing.
At this point in my journey, I don't believe in literal reincarnation or a real link between the positions of the planets at birth and the personality, to name two examples. But just soften the edges around those statements a bit and I'm totally there!
The ideas don't have to be tossed out just because they require a bit of mythopoetic filtering. Going through the motions of Liber Thisarb ("past life regression") or constructing a natal chart can be fruitful tasks for the skeptic - even if they don't lead to taking on new Beliefs!I worry, though, that the majority of occultists and Thelemites set up camp on the opposite side, as it were. They're taught about reincarnation and astrology (to continue those two examples) and they believe in them without seriously worrying about the kind of "placebo effect" the mind can pull. Was it Froclown who earlier said "If it feels right, question the hell out of it" ? Amen on that point.
"However, With advanced technology we can make these dreams of an astral plane, afterlife and mind backed up in machines a Reality."
I still think that it can be short-sighted for Thelemites to dismiss these kinds of quixotic dreams out-of-hand. Maybe these technologies are precisely the Magickal Link needed to get the job done!
Steve
PS: There's something in the forum software that is changing one word of mine in that last paragraph above. I typed "M a g i c k a l," but the "k" got deleted and it got uncapitalized! It's never tried to spell-check me or grammar-check me before...
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@Steven Cranmer said
"PS: There's something in the forum software that is changing one word of mine in that last paragraph above. I typed "M a g i c k a l," but the "k" got deleted and it got uncapitalized! It's never tried to spell-check me or grammar-check me before...
"Yes. That's a non-existent word. The adjective form of "magick" is "magical."
Unfortunataely, the grammatically and historically incorrect word has become common place - usually not with people like Steven who truly know and use the English language, but more commonly with people who aren't sure why it matters if they spell correctly or use proper grammar.
So - I used the same forum software that allows profanities and obscenities to be filtered to correct the very common spelling mistake mentioned above.
The capitalization was a by-product and unintentional. Apparently the Word Censor module doesn't have that case sensitivity. I have it set to convert "M a g i c k a l" to "Magical," and to convert "m a g i c k a l" to "magical" - it seems to be case insensitive to input, and to use the "last rule wins" approach to output. I didn't write the module.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes. That's a non-existent word. The adjective form of "magick" is "magical." "
Memory is a funny thing! The term I was using ("Magical Link") is clearly spelled correctly in MiT&P and as the title of the old OTO newsletter, but it got lodged in my memory with that darn "k"!
Going by Google, it's misspelled about 30% of the time on the web...
But come on, no substantive comments on (what I thought was) a less rigid approach to materialism?
Steve
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Organic robot mixes rat brain with silicon
16 June 2003 09:20 AM
Organic robot mixes rat brain with silicon A new experimental device combines biology and electronics to investigate the wetware in our heads.A research team at the Georgia Institute of Technology has created a new kind of robot, the Hybrot, which lead researcher Professor Steve Potter says has great implications for understanding the human brain.
The Hybrot looks like many other experimental and kit robots -- an exposed circuit board above a chassis containing motors and batteries. But one of the chips sits on top of a small metal cylinder, a patented sealed incubator system that contains the control circuits of the device: live rat brain cells. The system will keep the neurons alive for up to two years, while other circuits connect them to the electronics of the robot.
"We call it the 'Hybrot' because it is a hybrid of living and robotic components," said Potter in a statement. "We hope to learn how living neural networks may be applied to the artificial computing systems of tomorrow. We also hope that our findings may help cases in which learning, memory, and information processing go awry in humans."
The incubator contains a few thousand living neurons cultured from rat cortex and placed on a special glass dish equipped with an array of 60 micro-electrodes. The neural activity recorded by the electrodes is transmitted to the robot, which serves as a body for the cultured networks. It moves under the command of neural activity, relaying information back from the robot's sensors to the cultured net as electrical stimulation.
As the neurons form a network and react to the external stimuli, the research team can make observations of the signalling patterns, and changes in the way the cells hook up and configure themselves. High speed cameras and voltage-sensitive dyes, in conjunction with laser-scanning microscopes, return information that the team hope will show evidence for growth and learning patterns in biological systems.
"Learning is often defined as a lasting change in behaviour, resulting from experience," said Potter. "In order for a cultured network to learn, it must be able to behave. By using multi-electrode arrays as a two-way interface to cultured mammalian cortical networks, we have given these networks an artificial body with which to behave."