"faux" commentary to Liber Legis
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@Anne-Claire said
"Dear Jim, on no account at all is the prophet's person the matter here!"
Oh, I disagree completely. That's my whole point: This wasn't the utterance of the Prophet. This was the emotional spillage of the man Aleister Crowley.
That is surely the crux of our disagreement. I also have a copy of a grocery shopping list in Crowley's handwriting, but that's not a Class A document either.
""I am a Thelemite, not a Crowleyite.""
But this particular set of sentences (the comment) is pure Crowleyanity. Again, that's also part of my basic point. It ain't Thelema - it's Crowleyanity.
I'll ignore most of your personal comments in order to try to keep this somewhat on topic (other than to say that you really don't understand either my psyche or my views on Crowley, though, in that vacuum, you made some understandable speculations).
"Of course, it may be that you need to assert yourself as a teacher"
Issue settled long ago. I have no axe to grind on that point.
"call the prophet a liar!!!"
Well, that was settled a long time ago, too. He was an admitted liar, when that was what the job required. His words, not mine. But I don't think that's relevant to the discussion either.
""AC could not distinguish a divine inspiration from an "emotional outburst", whereas I, Jim Eshelman, I can!""
Nobody can see their own bullshit quite as well as others can see it. I think this applies, in greater or lesser measure, to all of us.
"a basset suddenly seized by rabies"
It's the word "suddenly" to which I object. I've been teaching and writing the same thing about this Comment for decades.
"So, you think instead of feeling - In magical terms, you always use the Sword, because you can't use the Cup, still less the Wand..."
You only know me through this forum. Given that narrow window, I see why you might have that opinion. The Sword is the proper medium for an educational discussion environment, such as this forum.
"to restrict the Book of the Law -the most amazing, powerful tool ever given to humankind"
You are confusing the comment with The Book of the Law. The comment is not part of The Book of the Law. Even Crowley never regarded the comment as part of The Book of the Law. My remarks have been about the comment, not The Book of the Law.
"I think you were wrong writing that, and I needed to say why"
Cool.
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@Anne-Claire said
"... to restrict the Book of the Law -the most amazing, powerful tool ever given to humankind, restoring the link between Gods and men, taking us back to the Way of the Gods after the Osirian Dark Night- down to a text to be discussed, debated, analyzed / to restrict Thelemites down to hairs-splitting talmudists, down to finicky confucianists, down to anatomy students dissecting a corpse..."
You are saying that discussing the Book of the Law is restriction
I think you are confused. It is the opposite. Prohibiting the discussion of the Book of the Law IS restriction, therefore a sin.
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Anne-Claire: The problem with Christianity is that is all about dogma. Thelema is not.
Dogma: the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization, thought to be authoritative and not to be disputed or doubted. Rejection of dogma is considered heresy in certain religions.
BTW, I'm happy being "heretic"...
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I wrote an apology for discussing the book of law after I read the Tunis Comment on the thelema.org website and was referred to this thread.
To study a book, is to ask why, which evokes because and destroys will. To discuss it with others, is to discuss again to follow the same pattern.
I firmly believe that on my path there are forces guiding me, and so may be guiding others. I believe that as long as I remain in motion, it's easier to be guided, and my will to be fulfilled.
To read the book of law, and compare it to life experiences and truths, will open up the knowledge. It's all right there in the book. While I don't understand the ceremonial part of the book, and parts of the other Crowley books I've read, I have learned to understand certain truths, on my path to discover the truth.
I can understand the need to discuss it, however to define the truth, is to defile the truth. I believe that the truth in the Book of Law needs to be self realized, either by self work, or by guidance from those already initiated into the mystery.
To do so in any other way, is to invite misinterpretation and self delusion. To me this is the same as giving your will over to another, or becoming someone else's will.
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@Anne-Claire said
"Several places but, according to me, the most clear and straightforward is to be found in Magick without Tears, letter 50."
I believe you're referring to this quote: "In Paris, in a mood of blank despair about it all, out came the Comment. Easy, yes; inspired, yes; it is, as printed, the exact wording required."
I don't follow how a quote such as this can mean that the Comment is a Class A document and beyond questionableness. It seems more of an earnest scholarly work, which can sometimes be "inspired" to a degree, and would fall into Class B, if not Class C - which is merely suggestive. He might have felt it was the right thing, but there is no designation that he truly classed it as a Class A.
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93
Dear Anne Claire,
I have re-read letter 50.
I think you are mistaken, and for the following reasons. It is my belief that Crowley wanted to preserve Liber Legis the way it was given, free from any future perversions of interpretation and change. We can say that this will be the case as long as the English language continues to be spoken. The Book of the Law will remain in its unaltered state for a long time.
I don't think he meant to stifle thought and interpretation as this book is a source of illumination, and different for everyone. But to be so paranoid of listening to what another has to say about it , fearing that somehow your truth would get lost, is ridiculous.
I don't think anyone claims that their interpretation is the only one, and those who do share their own comments, are helping us learn how to use Gematria, Qabalah in general, and so forth. This can help us find a richer, deeper understanding so that we may pursue our own research.
I hope this helps you, dear French sister.
93, 93/93
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@Michaeljwjr said
" To study a book, is to ask why, which evokes because and destroys will. To discuss it with others, is to discuss again to follow the same pattern. "
I like this comment but I don't agree with it. I think it depends on a couple of things.
First, that discussing the Book of the Law is just a mental exercise because REASON by itself is incapable of understanding the text. It is a mystery that has to be experienced to be understood by each person.
Second, I think it is very important that the book can be discussed without treating it as a "sacred cow". Otherwise, this creates a veil that is not intended to be there. It separates the divine from the human (something we saw a lot in the past Aeon). Each person has to decide if the book makes sense. If the book "talks" to them. Presenting the Book of the Law as "kneel down and adore it" before the world is nonsense. That is not Thelema.
Third, I think I understand your statement. Something like "trust the forces guiding you" or something of the sort.
I do like that. I think this is what works best, and most people have a lot of problem achieving this attitude and mental state.
Once the decision is made, you just go. There may be some small "whys" along the way, but these "whys" are very superficial. You know you want to get from point "A" to point "B". That shouldn't be questioned because you know it. It comes from the very center of your being, it is your Will, *however you can ask what is the best way to get there. *The only point of Scientific Illuminism is to train your mind and body in a "sicentific" way to endure the ordeals of the path. It will necessarily take you to ask "why" and I think this questioning is healthy. I don't think Crowley wanted an army of mindless automatons.
@Michaeljwjr said
" I firmly believe that on my path there are forces guiding me, and so may be guiding others. I believe that as long as I remain in motion, it's easier to be guided, and my will to be fulfilled. "
Thanks for sharing this!
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@Michaeljwjr said
"I wrote an apology for discussing the book of law after I read the Tunis Comment on the thelema.org website and was referred to this thread. "
Personally I think you are silly for doing this.
"To study a book, is to ask why, which evokes because and destroys will. To discuss it with others, is to discuss again to follow the same pattern. "
Really? Where did you get THAT idea? Perhaps from studying Liber AL, you little hypocrite...?
"To read the book of law, and compare it to life experiences and truths, will open up the knowledge. It's all right there in the book."
Really, I thought it destroys will...
"While I don't understand the ceremonial part of the book, and parts of the other Crowley books I've read, I have learned to understand certain truths, on my path to discover the truth. "
Sounds good enough to me...
"I can understand the need to discuss it, however to define the truth, is to defile the truth. I believe that the truth in the Book of Law needs to be self realized, either by self work, or by guidance from those already initiated into the mystery. "
I have a hard time believing anyone is disagreeing with you on this point.
"To do so in any other way, is to invite misinterpretation and self delusion. To me this is the same as giving your will over to another, or becoming someone else's will."
Well, lets agree to disagree. To study other people's perspectives, especially on Liber AL, does NOT give up your own will, you are merely broadening the base of your pyramid - that is, you are sympathizing with more point-of-views than normal and so you may function more effectively. In considering others commentaries (especially Crowley), you dont need to accept waht they say as true or even remotely right, but some comments can resonate, help explain obscure parts of Liber AL, etc....
65 & 210,
111-418 -
It is my understanding that there are people who have come to the understand the truths in the book of law, and other mysteries important for me to learn.
I actually do very much appreciate this board. The general attitude of the average member is amazing. I thank you for this.
However a little bit of knowledge, is dangerous, especially when someone tries to teach that little bit of knowledge. I haven't seen any of that here on this board, however it does happen.
If it is truly my will to develop, and do my part in the great work, then the information I need will come to me when I need it.
It is not my point of you view that the comment to not discuss it is a filter of any kind. I am taking it as a guidance to ensure that I've spent plenty of time trying to discover the secret meanings, and true intent of Aiwaz's transmission. To develop my own truth, from personal work and then to ask technical questions, but to avoid others interpretation.
While I see the value of discussion, I appreciate the thought put behind the comment, and it is helping my focused development, as opposed to simply asking for answers, and being given the answers.
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@Michaeljwjr said
"It is my understanding that there are people who have come to the understand the truths in the book of law, and other mysteries important for me to learn.
I actually do very much appreciate this board. The general attitude of the average member is amazing. I thank you for this.
However a little bit of knowledge, is dangerous, especially when someone tries to teach that little bit of knowledge. I haven't seen any of that here on this board, however it does happen.
If it is truly my will to develop, and do my part in the great work, then the information I need will come to me when I need it.
It is not my point of you view that the comment to not discuss it is a filter of any kind. I am taking it as a guidance to ensure that I've spent plenty of time trying to discover the secret meanings, and true intent of Aiwaz's transmission. To develop my own truth, from personal work and then to ask technical questions, but to avoid others interpretation.
While I see the value of discussion, I appreciate the thought put behind the comment, and it is helping my focused development, as opposed to simply asking for answers, and being given the answers."
It seems we are in agreement and have similar attitudes on this subject.
65 & 210,
111-418 -
@Anne-Claire said
"Dear Kuniggety, if you had read, in letter 50, the sentence just after the one you quoted, I believe you would not have written this post
"I did read the whole paragraph
It is my belief that the following words are only an elucidation of Crowley on how/why he came about writing the Comment. And, no where in there, do I see him claiming that the Comment is "beyond the criticism of even the Visible Head of the Organization". -
@Anne-Claire said
"
@Draco Magnus said
" But to be so paranoid of listening to what another has to say about it , fearing that somehow your truth would get lost, is ridiculous."No, it is a matter of "sense of sacredness", of "relationship with the Divine" "
Wow! Has it occurred to you that something can be held sacred AND be discussed?
Welcome to the New Aeon!
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I agree that it is forbidden to discuss and study the Book.
In the light that, you can never reveal the meaning of the Book, you can only seek it out on a personal level.
You should also burn it...
In the fire of your spiritual furnace.However, one might say that is my Thelema.
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@Uni_Verse said
"I agree that it is forbidden to discuss and study the Book.
In the light that, you can never reveal the meaning of the Book, you can only seek it out on a personal level.
You should also burn it...
In the fire of your spiritual furnace.However, one might say that is my Thelema."
Nice! Thanks Uni_Verse.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Well as there is to be no discussion on the Book of Law, we can discuss the comment.
*Those who discuss the contents of this Book are to be shunned by all, as centres of pestilence.
All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself.*
These are not from A.C. These lines are from The priest of the princes, Ankh-f-n-khonsu as is the entire comment.
Why should someone who discusses the contents of this Book be shunned as a centre of pestilence? Because if you understand the truth, you don't defile it by defining it. If you are defiling something, you are acting as a pestilence, spreading the defilement.
This is my assessment of the comment, and the reason I choose not to discuss the book anymore, instead, heading the comment form Ankh-f-n-khonsu and appealing to his writings when I have a question, or learning the technical knowledge I need to further define for myself what I need to know.
I am still personally stuck on learning the meaning 'Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law' and how 'Love is the law, love under will' correspond to each other. But this mystery I am confident in learning myself, as if I'm given the answer then I don't have the joy of experiencing the answer.
*Love is the law, love under will. *
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@Michaeljwjr said
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Well as there is to be no discussion on the Book of Law"
You do realize that you just contradicted yourself in those two lines, don't you? If it is thy will to be a sheep and listen to Crowley (Ankh-f-n-khonsu was one of his past lives), then so be it, but realize that it is in absolute opposition to the teachings of Thelema, which is summed up by the line in which you opened your post.
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@kuniggety said
"
@Michaeljwjr said
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.Well as there is to be no discussion on the Book of Law"
You do realize that you just contradicted yourself in those two lines, don't you? If it is thy will to be a sheep and listen to Crowley (Ankh-f-n-khonsu was one of his past lives), then so be it, but realize that it is in absolute opposition to the teachings of Thelema, which is summed up by the line in which you opened your post."
*Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law
Love is the law, love under will. *
We have different interpretations of those two lines.
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You have a different interpretation than me of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"? I view this as "The whole of the law is defined by one's true will". Listening to Crowley's comment is going "The whole of the law is defined by one's true will... and whatever stipulations that Crowley decides to write at some point". Hell, Crowley didn't even follow the Tunis Comment, making plenty of references to Liber L after 1925, when the Tunis Comment was written. You want to know why? It's completely UNthelemic.
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@Anne-Claire said
"
@kuniggety said
" Hell, Crowley didn't even follow the Tunis Comment, making plenty of references to Liber L after 1925, when the Tunis Comment was written. You want to know why? It's completely UNthelemic."No, the Comment itself confers a special statute to him as a prophet. It is so short, I don't know how you managed to miss "by appeal to my writings"
"Making reference to, is not the same as study of, and discussion of. You can argue the point that you can refer to the Book of Law to prove a point, as long as you are not making the logical connection of the reference between the point being made, and the referenced source.
For example:
1:39
1:40
1:44
1:57Have a special connection for me. I would never presume to try and convince someone else of the connection that I've made, and thus is the point of the comment. Appeal to the writings, use it as a reference, but do not spend time trying to figure out why something was said, use your own judgment to realize what was said.
As to what a Thelemite is this is something I should have taken my own advice on, and figured out for myself, by appealing to the writings.
Thank you for the opportunity for the personal growth I've had form this thread.
Michael
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@Anne-Claire said
"
No, the Comment itself confers a special statute to him as a prophet. It is so short, I don't know how you managed to miss "by appeal to my writings""Technically, it's signed by Ankh-f-n-khonsu, a long dead priest. Ooooh, the dilemna
