Apologies
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@aum418 said
"I find it highly ironic that people can retain the "DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD" mentality, even after reading the line "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" at the beginning of this comment and the "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt" at the end... "
I think you are being unnecessarily harsh. Doing one's will can entail doing what one is told; for example, if it is your will to get a university degree, you'll do what your teachers and advisors tell you; if it your will to climb Mt. Everest, you'll consider doing what your Sherpa guide tells you. Suppose I decide it's my will to pursue the Great Work. How do I go about that? Well, the Book of the Law gives instructions, beginning with "Obey my prophet". From that perspective, it becomes reasonable to read what the prophet said and do what you're told.
The Book of the Law, in some ways, is like a long koan -- to find its meaning, you must weave your way through a tangle of paradoxes to find your way above them. Do nothing but your will -- but obey the prophet! Make no differences -- but whoever does this is different!
Anthony Burgess was joking when he wrote (in Earthly Powers, end of chapter two), " One of those contradictions that come easily to the religious mind, God being quite as large as Walt Whitman." But God is as large as Walt Whitman, and dancing through the paradoxes till you transcend them is part of the fun of being a Thelemite.
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"I think you are being unnecessarily harsh. Doing one's will can entail doing what one is told; for example, if it is your will to get a university degree, you'll do what your teachers and advisors tell you; if it your will to climb Mt. Everest, you'll consider doing what your Sherpa guide tells you. Suppose I decide it's my will to pursue the Great Work. How do I go about that? Well, the Book of the Law gives instructions, beginning with "Obey my prophet". From that perspective, it becomes reasonable to read what the prophet said and do what you're told."
I think this was very well said, for what a humble acolyte's opinion is worth. Integral to all thelemic systems that I have ever encountered is a strict Hierarchy, and my understanding of both Crowley and Nietzsche is that at the core of both their philosophies is the concept of the God-King-Guru around whom others cluster, as flowers in a garden, to partake of the life-giving light eminated by that brilliant Sun-Star.
It is a great truth that the Will is preeminantly True rather than free.
93 93/93
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93!
I met Lon Milo Duquette recently when he was doing a Enochian Magick workshop at Horizon Oasis OTO. He has the funniest story I've ever heard about the first time he read The Book of the Law. He literally pasted the sheets together from right to left, top to bottom, with a gluestick sealing it making the book like a solid brick and then burned it. He said while it was burning to his horror he stood there and read the whole thing all over again watching it burn off page by page and that's when he knew it was too late, it already had a profound effect on him be he shunned or not...
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@Asraiya said
"93!
I met Lon Milo Duquette recently when he was doing a Enochian Magick workshop at Horizon Oasis OTO. He has the funniest story I've ever heard about the first time he read The Book of the Law. He literally pasted the sheets together from right to left, top to bottom, with a gluestick sealing it making the book like a solid brick and then burned it. He said while it was burning to his horror he stood there and read the whole thing all over again watching it burn off page by page and that's when he knew it was too late, it already had a profound effect on him be he shunned or not...
"I recently read that on his myspace. It seems he does some pretty idiotic stuff and thinks its funny: lighting his hands on fire in this case, spilling oil into his eyes in the case of his Orobas story which he tells over and over and over and over...
Some people can only learn through instances like this...
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@gmugmble said
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@aum418 said
"I find it highly ironic that people can retain the "DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD" mentality, even after reading the line "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" at the beginning of this comment and the "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt" at the end... "I think you are being unnecessarily harsh. Doing one's will can entail doing what one is told; for example, if it is your will to get a university degree, you'll do what your teachers and advisors tell you; if it your will to climb Mt. Everest, you'll consider doing what your Sherpa guide tells you. "
These considerations are so different from interpreting a mystical text I wonder whether you see the difference?
"Suppose I decide it's my will to pursue the Great Work. How do I go about that? Well, the Book of the Law gives instructions, beginning with "Obey my prophet". "
The book of the law begins with that? What version are you reading? I feel no obligation to obey the prophet, especially when it says quite clearly that Do what thou wilt shall be the WHOLE of hte law, and if you didnt get it: There is NO LAW beyond Do what thou wilt.
" From that perspective, it becomes reasonable to read what the prophet said and do what you're told. "
No, its not. Once again I think you are completely misisng hte message of Do what thou wilt if you are doing crap like this.
"The Book of the Law, in some ways, is like a long koan -- to find its meaning, you must weave your way through a tangle of paradoxes to find your way above them. Do nothing but your will -- but obey the prophet! Make no differences -- but whoever does this is different!"
Yeah, im not so sure about your interpretations of LIber AL there but I can agree that much of it is in the nature of a koan.
"But God is as large as Walt Whitman, and dancing through the paradoxes till you transcend them is part of the fun of being a Thelemite."
Sure... This does not necessitate following anyone's orders. If you were to obey the prophet, I assume that means follow out the laws in LIber AL, which as I mentioned before, there is NO LAW beyond Do what thou wilt.
As for being harsh... so it goes.
65 & 210,
111-418 -
@aum418 said
"I find it highly ironci that people can retain the "DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD" mentality, even after reading the line "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" at the beginning of this comment and the "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt" at the end...
This further proves that the comment serves as a sort of filter, for people who cant think for themselves yet so they burn the book, they treat others as pestilence, and they apologize for their own actions that were done in good intentions... its pretty silly.
65 & 210,
111-418"There is a difference between studying why something was said, and what was said.
If I want to learn Kung Fu, I don't watch Kung Fu Movies, or discuss techniques with other kung fu enthusiasts. I find someone who has been initiated into Kung Fu, and ask them to show me what they know. I earn my belts, and advance through the system already in place to bring one into Kung Fu "Gnosis".
The same care should be in place for mystical teaching. Those who know a little, should be careful to discuss what they interpret.
It's a matter of only half learning something, and then practicing the wrong way.
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@Michaeljwjr said
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@aum418 said
"I find it highly ironci that people can retain the "DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD" mentality, even after reading the line "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" at the beginning of this comment and the "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt" at the end...This further proves that the comment serves as a sort of filter, for people who cant think for themselves yet so they burn the book, they treat others as pestilence, and they apologize for their own actions that were done in good intentions... its pretty silly.
65 & 210,
111-418"There is a difference between studying why something was said, and what was said.
If I want to learn Kung Fu, I don't watch Kung Fu Movies, or discuss techniques with other kung fu enthusiasts. I find someone who has been initiated into Kung Fu, and ask them to show me what they know. I earn my belts, and advance through the system already in place to bring one into Kung Fu "Gnosis".
The same care should be in place for mystical teaching. Those who know a little, should be careful to discuss what they interpret.
It's a matter of only half learning something, and then practicing the wrong way."
I think Liber AL should be both studied and discussed insofar as studying is individual and discussion is communal. If you have one or the eitehr you will run into problems.
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@aum418 said
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"Suppose I decide it's my will to pursue the Great Work. How do I go about that? Well, the Book of the Law gives instructions, beginning with "Obey my prophet". "
The book of the law begins with that? What version are you reading?"
I am reading chapter I, verse 32, which says, "Obey my prophet! follow out the ordeals of my knowledge! seek me only! Then the joys of my love will redeem ye from all pain." This is a promise I'd like to cash in on. Fortunately for me, obeying AC's instructions does not appear to conflict with following my own weird.
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" am reading chapter I, verse 32, which says, "Obey my prophet! follow out the ordeals of my knowledge! seek me only! Then the joys of my love will redeem ye from all pain." This is a promise I'd like to cash in on. Fortunately for me, obeying AC's instructions does not appear to conflict with following my own weird."
w3rd! let us remember that the axiom is not "Do what you want is the only rule". The entire system of Thelema, as far as I understand it, is predicated on service... service to the order, service to mankind, service to all sentient beings, yes... even and especially service to the prophet.
The will is TRUE not free.
93 93/93
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@Ambrosios666 said
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" am reading chapter I, verse 32, which says, "Obey my prophet! follow out the ordeals of my knowledge! seek me only! Then the joys of my love will redeem ye from all pain." This is a promise I'd like to cash in on. Fortunately for me, obeying AC's instructions does not appear to conflict with following my own weird."w3rd! let us remember that the axiom is not "Do what you want is the only rule". The entire system of Thelema, as far as I understand it, is predicated on service... service to the order, service to mankind, service to all sentient beings, yes... even and especially service to the prophet.
The will is TRUE not free.
93 93/93"
The fact that hte will is not free from a philosophical standpoint has NO relation to 'service' unless you are talking about the Universe as a whole. Service to the order? Give me a break. Service to oneself and service to others and service ot the universe become coterminous if one is doing one's Will.
65 & 210,
111-418 -
Never in all my years have I encountered the suggestion that Liber AL is telling Thelemites to obey the Prophet.
From my first reading I took
"Obey my prophet"
to be Nuit telling the prophet to obey her! Kind of like if we inserted a comma thus:
"Obey**,** my prophet"
Mind you, I guess if you are by your inner nature predisposed toward obeying others then who better to obey than a dead man, he can't suddenly turn round and tell you to do something you don't want to!
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@nashimiron said
"Never in all my years have I encountered the suggestion that Liber AL is telling Thelemites to obey the Prophet.
From my first reading I took
"Obey my prophet"
to be Nuit telling the prophet to obey her! Kind of like if we inserted a comma thus:
"Obey**,** my prophet"
Mind you, I guess if you are by your inner nature predisposed toward obeying others then who better to obey than a dead man, he can't suddenly turn round and tell you to do something you don't want to!
"On this line Crowley wrote:
It is proper to obey The Beast, because His Law is pure Freedom, and He will give no command which is other than a Right Interpretation of this Freedom.
The prophet has been trying to tell us over and over and over and over that DO WHAT THOU WILT is the whole of the Law, and there is no Law beyond it. He started all his letters with this, most of his epistles, etc. and we still dont seem to get it.
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@nashimiron said
"Never in all my years have I encountered the suggestion that Liber AL is telling Thelemites to obey the Prophet.
"I think it's quite ingenious of you to put "the stops as you will" and come up with your reading. The Book permits that, and it's pretty cool.
But - to address your "Never in all my years have I encountered the suggestion," &c. - I do want to add that the standard interpretation is quite specifically that the prophet is to be obeyed by Thelemites. It isn't novel at all.
This isn't to take away from your preferred interpretation. Rather, it's to acknowledge the uniqueness and unusualness of your interpretation. I'd also suggest (since you've never even encountered the suggestion of this interpretation) that you get a copy of Crowley's commentaries and study them.
In the case of this particular verse, in the New Comment, Crowley wrote:
@666 said
"It is proper to obey The Beast, because His Law is pure Freedom, and He will give no command which is other than a Right Interpretation of this Freedom. But it is necessary for the development of Freedom itself to have an organization; and every organization must have a highly-centralized control. This is especially necesary in time of war, as even the so-called 'democratic' nations have been taught by Experience, since they would not learn from Germany. Now this age is pre-eminently a 'time of war', most of all now, when it is our Work to overthrow the slave-gods."
Please note that A.C. didn't suggest that the man Aleister Crowley was to be obeyed but, rather, The Beast, "the chosen priest & apostle of infinite space" (CCXX 1:15) that inhabited him.
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Hmm, looking at the commentaries I see Crowley does interpret it as to obey the prophet. I must have forgotten that.
I still think the statement could be taken either way although to obey the prophet all you have to do is your Will. So whichever way you take it you end up with the same result! Sure evidence of a praeter-natural hand at work!
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Whoa! What powerful emotional reactions these demons Serve and Be Free have aroused. Perhaps because I was weaned on Konx Om Pax and The Book of Lies, it comes more naturally to see them as two sides of the same coin, or to say "Let these two asses be set to grind corn!"
A wise and foolish man wrote, "... a consistent equilibrium of all imaginable opposites will suggest to us a world in which they are truly one; whence to that world itself is but the shortest step." Let's take that step!
On a practical level, I think "Obey my prophet" should be understood in context of "he shall learn and teach." Anyway, AC is no longer around to bark orders, so even if I were so addled as to want to be his abject slave, I couldn't. But he left an invaluable legacy, a wealth of instructions to follow, and I think if you want to be free and to do your will, there are no better text books.