Breaking the Cycle of Birth
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Someone asked me this question today about Thelema and I didn't know how quite to answer. Any help?
I was asked by a Catholic nun (who happens to run a tarot study group!) about Thelema and the idea of being totally involved in material pleasures, ie: As Nuit tells us to do unto her.
The comment made was that most religions teach a detachement from the material because at death one does not then try to "hold onto" the material pleasures they had, and a somewhat detached view during life makes the separation easier. Separation meaning "heaven" in thier words, "reintegration" in esoteric Christianity, or the breaking of the wheel of reincarnation in others.
Any suggestions on how to answer?
David
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I interpret those passages as not being attached to material, but participating in the material aspect of life in a more refined manner. There is a difference between approaching a meal as an animal, a human, and a "more than" human.
Without violating the comment, think of this:
What is the difference between the way a dog approaches a glass of fine wine, a normal person approaches it, and someone who knows how to drink a fine wine approaches it?
If you've ever been taught how to drink wine, you'll have a better understanding of my interpretation, if not then here is an opportunity for self discovery.
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@DavidH said
"The comment made was that most religions teach a detachement from the material because at death one does not then try to "hold onto" the material pleasures they had, and a somewhat detached view during life makes the separation easier."
I'm not convinced that most religions teach detachment. In my opinion they teach "avoidance". You can't miss what you never had and therefore won't be led astray, or so the story goes.
But surely this point of view is anathema to Thelema. We are here to experience physical life in accord with the True Will, realising the possibilities of Nuit, not denying life and our purpose for being here.
Worrying about separation at death is very Aeon of Osiris. Doesn't Thelema teach us that life and death are a continuum? So where does separation come in to it?
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I think of it as mastery of the material. Learning to take pleasure in it but not covet it. If you constantly seek pleasure, it is your master in a way.
I don't have time to elaborate, just wanted to drop a quick thought though, my apologies.
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@DavidH said
"I am asking for the best way to explain the thelemic view to someone who DOES think this way.
David"
To take in a sunset, or a mountain view, or a child playing, all things taken in through the eyes; When a Christian sees these things, they say "Glory to God", and when a Thelemite sees these things, we (essentially) say "Glory to Nuit". It's to experience from our personal viewpoint for the glory of God. I(thelemite) don't pursue material/physical pleasure, just very much appreciate it when it happens.
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An important aspect of Thelema, in my eyes, is the idea of freedom through control. Being in control we can indulge, our doing a sanctifying of the act, for are we all not God by extension?
Life! The celebration. A doing.
Musing aside...
The Nun seeks detachment from the material, a little silly in my eyes. She is looking towards the future, one moment and none of the ones leading up to it.
You might say a Thelemite has their eye on the ball. The Thelemite knows, accepts and embraces the fact that they will have to leave the body behind. However, since we are here - we celebrate! The body, the mind , everything will be gone. While here, ever the scientists, we tinker about and see what this is all about.
HELL, we all just curious sums of bitches
She spends her time loving God in her way, and we love God in our own way : by getting to know um!
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I think Thelema teaches a very strong notion of detachment. If you are doing everything unto Nuit and not unto yourself, you are about as detached as you can get. However much pleasure you might enjoy in life, you are supposed to be giving it all up to Nuit. This way you do not have any of the fruits of your actions. And these fruits are what cause the attachments.
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@DavidH said
"The comment made was that most religions teach a detachement from the material because at death one does not then try to "hold onto" the material pleasures they had, and a somewhat detached view during life makes the separation easier. Separation meaning "heaven" in thier words, "reintegration" in esoteric Christianity, or the breaking of the wheel of reincarnation in others."
Just FYI, "Breaking the wheel of Birth and Death" is not something that happens at death. This is an allegory for a psychological event that takes place during life.
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@DavidH said
"The comment made was that most religions teach a detachement from the material because at death one does not then try to "hold onto" the material pleasures they had, and a somewhat detached view during life makes the separation easier. Separation meaning "heaven" in thier words, "reintegration" in esoteric Christianity, or the breaking of the wheel of reincarnation in others."
Your nun presumes a difference or separation between the spiritual and material that doesn't exist. All that we touch is holy ground, and all that we experience is at and for the pleasure of the Life-power that has sent us out as agents of Its Experience.
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@DavidH said
"a Catholic nun (who happens to run a tarot study group!)"
I'm sorry, but you can't get away with just tossing that off! You must say more about this situation. What tarot deck does she favor? How can her superiors in the church allow her to do this?
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@gmugmble said
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@DavidH said
"a Catholic nun (who happens to run a tarot study group!)"I'm sorry, but you can't get away with just tossing that off! You must say more about this situation. What tarot deck does she favor? How can her superiors in the church allow her to do this?"
93!
Does it matter what deck she uses? I'm not sure, but I think the Waite deck. The female Orders of the Catholic church are FULL of this. I also went to the chapel last week to deliver something and on the stool of the piano where the Nun plays for the Mass, she had a book on music and the 7 chakras!
On campus they do native American rituals, and in their retreat centers they do tarot card studies, enneagrams, reiki (very common and the nuns even do it in the sponsored hospitals), eastern type centering meditation, Zen, and much. much more. Go to almost any Catholic retreat center and you'll find this, especially in California. I see nuns wearing crystals instead of crosses and I've heard the HEAD of an Order say to hide everything because the Bishop is coming!
This is VERY common these days.
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Hm. Thanks for replying. It's always good to learn (yet again!) that the universe is stranger than even I had imagined.
@DavidH said
"Does it matter what deck she uses?"
Well, sure. Wouldn't it be interesting if she taught the Crowley/Harris deck? Or one of the pornographic decks? Or the Hello Kitty Tarot? Or the deck I saw once where each card depicted a pair of boots in a different style?
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@gmugmble said
"Hm. Thanks for replying. It's always good to learn (yet again!) that the universe is stranger than even I had imagined.
@DavidH said
"Does it matter what deck she uses?"
Well, sure. Wouldn't it be interesting if she taught the Crowley/Harris deck? Or one of the pornographic decks? Or the Hello Kitty Tarot? Or the deck I saw once where each card depicted a pair of boots in a different style?
"93! Well, yes that would be interesting! But I was shocked enough just that they had ANY Tarot study group. One "famous" nun I know just came out with a book on music and in the middle somewhere you can find a chart where she assigns music to the different chakras. In California, this is more the norm than unusual. I'm positive they don't use the Crowley deck, 99% sure not the Hello Kitty deck either. Probably Waite.
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""hold onto" the material pleasures they had"
Crowley and thelema is in a way very close to buddhism but this is different regarding the flesh so to speak.
One who is fixed on the idea to break the material bond aren't they as fixed in the flesh as those who enjoy life, sex etc..? Or even more so because they cant stop thinking about it all the time.
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@noctivagus said
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""hold onto" the material pleasures they had"Crowley and thelema is in a way very close to buddhism but this is different regarding the flesh so to speak.
One who is fixed on the idea to break the material bond aren't they as fixed in the flesh as those who enjoy life, sex etc..? Or even more so because they cant stop thinking about it all the time.
"Liber AL says, "I:Ye shall gather goods and store of women and spices; ye shall wear rich jewels; ye shall exceed the nations of the earth in spendour & pride; but always in the love of me, and so shall ye come to my joy. I charge you earnestly to come before me in a single robe, and covered with a rich headdress. I love you! I yearn to you! Pale or purple, veiled or voluptuous, I who am all pleasure and purple, and drunkenness of the innermost sense, desire you. Put on the wings, and arouse the coiled splendour within you: come unto me!; II:22. I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness. To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all. It is a lie, this folly against self. The exposure of innocence is a lie. Be strong, o man! lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for this."
Flesh is no bond, in my opinion. Its the temple where all acts manifest through. It seems Liber AL is explicit about accepting 'sensuous' things and 'the world.'
As for death, I wrote a little thing about Liber AL's view of death and how it matches up with psychology, which you may read if you will.
I would also emphasize Almighty Creator's point that it is a process that occurs in this life - it has the most significance by treating it in this way. As pertaining to eschatology in general: "The exoteric notion of divine judgment held by Judeo-Christian-Islamics is ridiculous, physically imbecilic, and psychologically crippling. Everything is continually changing including the body and the psyche (including the persona) - skin cells renew themselves entirely every month and bone cells do so every three months approximately - in this sense we are continually dying, or more clearer understood: continually transforming. There is a psychological event that is the equivalent of the divine judgment of Judeo-Christian-Islamic people - the symbolic, esoteric interpretation - which essentially refers to the destruction of the ego (sense of "I" as separate from environment, from "not-I"). The ego comes to realize it had no right to the claim of "I" and it may relinquish its identity first to the totality of psychic contents (including all unconscious contents) and then further to the totality of all matter-energy, of all things, of the Universe, etc. Further, as mentioned above, "all things are continually changing and transforming (Heraclitus' panta rei)," and "there is no such thing as a truly independent agent or identity (Buddha's anatta)..." In this sense we are continually transforming - not each day or each hour, but each moment is a death, a rebirth, a purpose and end in itself."(source)
IAO131
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"(Heraclitus' panta rei)," and "there is no such thing as a truly independent agent or identity (Buddha's anatta)..." In this sense we are continually transforming - not each day or each hour, but each moment is a death, a rebirth, a purpose and end in itself."
Ah Heraclitus, one of my favorites, you can not go down in the same river twice. He was also called the philosopher of fire.
And how true is this not, how could there be progress without movment?
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@noctivagus said
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"(Heraclitus' panta rei)," and "there is no such thing as a truly independent agent or identity (Buddha's anatta)..." In this sense we are continually transforming - not each day or each hour, but each moment is a death, a rebirth, a purpose and end in itself."Ah Heraclitus, one of my favorites, you can not go down in the same river twice. He was also called the philosopher of fire.
And how true is this not, how could there be progress without movment?"
Also called the weeping philosopher, possibly because he wept at how little everyone else understood his doctrines. I really love his work. I recommend buying his 'Fragments.'
IAO131