belief, destroying &"reason&" (that nagging voice)
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Your problem is obsession by the evil spirit named Theory.
Screw theory. Don't worry about it one way or the other. All the things you're asking about require direct confirmation.
The best confirmation, of course, is your own direct experience. When possible, use that to test.
But on many of these things, there is a time when one can't yet confirm some things on one's own. (One hasn't built the necessary inner mechanisms.) In that case, the best approach is to trust the opinions of people who have had the chance to examine the matter.
Consider how our legal system layers the validity of testimony: The most trusted (and trustworthy) evidence of a thing usually is your own first-hand experience. Next comes the testimony of someone else who was actually there. Next best, if nobody is available who is there, is to collate range of reports and to consult an expert who knows about similar things, and can give a reasonable estimation.
At each level, certainty decreases; but (since your question is really one on the plane of Reason), it is a reasonable approach.
Also, don't get caught up in what something is called. For example, doubting that there is God or the astral plane, etc., often means that one is doubting the existence of what those terms mean to oneself; but it's often possible (and often actual) that other people are using the terms differently that you understand them. Rather than (for example) "There is no astral plane," one has to consider that a wide range of people are directly reporting something that they are calling the astral plane. One then has a new question: "If there isn't an astral plane as I understand the term, then what is it that all of these people have actually been experiencing and reporting on?" When you answer that question, you just might have discovered what the so-called astral plane actually is.
A few more remarks:
You may start, above, with the premise that reason is a lie, but your questions are entirely based on the functions of reason.
You also seem to have a prejudice against lies. Understanding that reason is a lie (it is, BTW) leaves open the question, "And what use might I have of these lies?"
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@Jim Eshelman said
"But on many of these things, there is a time when one can't yet confirm some things on one's own. (One hasn't built the necessary inner mechanisms.) In that case, the best approach is to trust the opinions of people who have had the chance to examine the matter."
Very eloquently argued. This is precisely why I encourage people to share their experiences and the results of their practices. However, I seem to meet the rebuff that doing so would lead people into the temptation of spiritual pride when a "mindset of humility" needs to be fostered.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Also, don't get caught up in what something is called. For example, doubting that there is God or the astral plane, etc., often means that one is doubting the existence of what those terms mean to oneself; but it's often possible (and often actual) that other people are using the terms differently that you understand them."
Larry Wall, creator of the programming language Perl, once responded to the question of how an intelligent person like him could believe in God by saying, "I expect a good deal of the problem is that you are busy disbelieving a different God than the one I am busy believing in."
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Wonderful quote!
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The question here then is, why should we trust our own direct experiences. when we could be psychotic, duped by an evil genie, or just dealing with things our minds cannot grasp.
An the other hand, maybe our direct perceptions are correct, but the world is a the illusion, the devil lies to us, but only our own faith and certainty in our higher spiritual strength can cut trough the lies.
It seems to me that each of these perspectives has its merits and its flaws, and the mere possibility of the other call the other into question.
Is there an option other that to distrust ones own faculties as well as to cast our the world as the devil, thus dwelling in tho abyss of absolute fear.
We can accept both our own faculties and the objective world, but doing so opens us to error and all the dangers of acting upon error.
What is one to do?
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@Froclown said
"The question here then is, why should we trust our own direct experiences. when we could be psychotic, duped by an evil genie, or just dealing with things our minds cannot grasp. "
One of the wonderful things about this spiritual path is that we never run out of such questions. They build a certain relativity into us, and especially, in time, change our relationship to ideas of certainty, reality, etc.
But, that aside, my main answer is: If we can't substantially trust ourselves, then we have nothing whatsoever we can count on. Nothing. Rien. Nada. Ultimately, you need to trust yourself.
Additionally, as one moves through genuine initiation - general spiritual growth - the main power one acquires is an expanding and ever more reliable truth sense. One doesn't know everything, but it sometimes seems that way because one gains the genuine "magick power" of accurately discerning truth vs. falsehood when encountering it.
Combine that with the admonition never to begin the magical path unless you are in good physical and psychological health and... you're pretty well set!
"What is one to do?"
Something else that needs to change (and does change along the way) is our relationship to error. We will fuck up. No need trying to avoid it and be perfect. So we might as well let go of the fear most people have of being found wrong and just get on with things.
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@froclown said
"
What is one to do?
"Enjoy the ride!
I would think the question lies not with our perceptions, but with our understanding.
It is not so much that we are perceiving something that is an illusion or unreal. More of never realizing what it is we are actually perceiving.
You go to a store, buy a lighter. It is mundane, right? People are doing it all the time.
Do you ever consider all that went into getting that lighter into your hand? The million and one things that had to occur for that lighter to even 'exist,' for you to have the ability, means, desire etcetera for that one small 'insignificant' action. Totally oblivious to the huge wave that just coursed through the cosmos and brought about change as a result.
Then you light up a cigarette, take a puff. Another explosion of activity.
All you see is the smoke. Beautiful, no ?
Pardon me, I am just the doggy in the window. The one with the waggly tail.
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Well that is exactly the problem isn't it
We have no grounds for any rational thought. We can not trust or mistrust anything that comes into our awareness.
We don't even have the resources or evidence on which to decide to suspend judgment or to make one.
No matter what we are in the dark, surrounded by peril on all fronts, and if we make a wrong move, we will fall into harm.
We are playing a game of chess, on which we are not told the rules, can not see the board, nor know its layout, and do not know our opponents moves. if we move or if we stay, out king will be captured eventually. Its just a matter of time, and any understanding or the game anyone thinks they have, is just the degrees to which they deluded themselves they are safe.
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of course the fool wanders blindly through the pitfalls and hazard of life, without worry or attention.
And the fool is much happier and at ease with himself and the work, that is until he slips up and walks over the cliff or gets mauled by lions.
The real question is, does all of our worry, preparation and prophetic warnings really make us any safer that the fool, and if so, is it worth losing our peace of mind?
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Froclown, 93,
"No matter what we are in the dark, surrounded by peril on all fronts, and if we make a wrong move, we will fall into harm. "
Yes, but what if we fall into understanding? My own experience has been that I rarely manage to calculate how events are going to work out, except in the most minute way (If I stop writing this post now, I will be on time for work, if I call X this morning we can setle what we talked about for next week, etc.) Whereas, overall, despite the unpredicted and unpredictable occurences, if I step back and contemplate where I've been and what I've done for the past few decades, I see I have less ignorance, and greater comprehension. And I'm still looking like I'll live out at least an average human lifespan, too.
The assumption that the Universe is out to get us is easy enough to maintain. We err, stumble, miscalculate and misunderstand the situations in which we find ourselves. Oddly, though, we generally survive quite nicely. The "harm" is often just the gap between our persistent anxieties and our understanding.
93 93/93,
EM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,
@Froclown said
"of course the fool wanders blindly through the pitfalls and hazard of life, without worry or attention.
And the fool is much happier and at ease with himself and the work, that is until he slips up and walks over the cliff or gets mauled by lions.
The real question is, does all of our worry, preparation and prophetic warnings really make us any safer that the fool, and if so, is it worth losing our peace of mind?"
Toss it to the wind my friend! Our highest archetypal aspiration is the fool! And as you say "the fool is much happier and at ease with himself and the work"
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@froclown said
"
And the fool is much happier and at ease with himself and the work, that is until he slips up and walks over the cliff or gets mauled by lions.
"Now you are making an assumption and falling into a pit yourself. How do you know the fool is going to realize he fell, let alone is being mauled by lions?
Maybe when he falls, he ends up higher than he was.
Maybe the lions just want to lick his face.
@froclown said
"
The real question is, does all of our worry, preparation and prophetic warnings really make us any safer that the fool, and if so, is it worth losing our peace of mind?
"When the answer that you want, is in the question that you state: Come what may!
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we can not say that what seems to be going on, IS what is going on.
The lions may seem to lick our face, but really our body is ripped to shreds.
it may seem that the heroin flies us off to a blissful world, but in truth we are poisoned and lying in vomit.but is any of that true, how shall we know.
no matter how intense or subtle, painful or pleasurable, certain or vague, its all just whirling in the mind. Who is to say anything is actual.
Come what may, but nothing comes and nothing is, just castles in the clouds, and even the clouds are suspect.
why should we accept anything, why take pleasure or feel sorrow, when there is no substance behind any of it. Might as well seal one self up and feel nothing, think nothing, perceive nothing. Just turn a clod shoulder on the world of sight and sense.
"whipe thine ass with what is written and grin like a ninny at what is spoken, take thy refuge with thine wine in the nothing behind everything as we hurry along the path"
"trust not the human eye in sunlight or in shade, the shadow show of sight and sense is the devils masquerade"
Now, what does the path of the white brother have to offer?
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@Froclown said
"we can not say that what seems to be going on, IS what is going on. "
Yes. So?
"but is any of that true, how shall we know. "
What matters most, I think, is the experience we have. Trying to pin down whether it is actual can sometimes be just a power trip.
"no matter how intense or subtle, painful or pleasurable, certain or vague, its all just whirling in the mind. Who is to say anything is actual."
Something is actual by an act - It's experienced in Assiah. By many definitions, this makes the actual quite different from the real. But it's validated in act.
"why should we accept anything, why take pleasure or feel sorrow, when there is no substance behind any of it."
I guarantee that there is no final substantiality to any of those perceptions. But it's part of our path, and very much in our nature, to experience these things you mention.
"Might as well seal one self up and feel nothing, think nothing, perceive nothing. Just turn a clod shoulder on the world of sight and sense."
There's no growth in that.
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I practice martial arts quite heavily, and after one particularly enlightening sparring session, my teacher spoke to us about truth and falsity. I'll quote directly from my journal regarding my thoughts on the class,
"Invaluable stick work. As I moved, thinking became completely unnecessary. There seems to be a certain "zone" wherein there is no more thought. Where moving-with is becoming-with. It is highly palpable. Paul [my teacher] spoke of the fact that only the Truth (of where you are at) will act as real stepping-stones to improvement, not Ideas (of where you think you are). This Truth (that the truth can be discerned from falsehood by whether or not it helps you move forward) is especially palpable in martial arts. People who think spiritual advancement is about talking and books and ideas debate this truth endlessly. It is quite silly."
Froclown, master of the temple of the second-life A.'.A.'., You are trying to discern truth from falsity intellectually. Go give a baseball bat to somebody, and then tell them to try to hit you with it. Therein you will discern truth from falsity.
Also relevant to Craigp,
Luke says, "But how can I tell the good side from the bad??"
Yoda replies, "You will know when you are at peace." -
@saintbryan said
"I practice martial arts quite heavily, and after one particularly enlightening sparring session, my teacher spoke to us about truth and falsity. I'll quote directly from my journal regarding my thoughts on the class,
"Invaluable stick work. As I moved, thinking became completely unnecessary. There seems to be a certain "zone" wherein there is no more thought. Where moving-with is becoming-with. It is highly palpable. Paul [my teacher] spoke of the fact that only the Truth (of where you are at) will act as real stepping-stones to improvement, not Ideas (of where you think you are). This Truth (that the truth can be discerned from falsehood by whether or not it helps you move forward) is especially palpable in martial arts. People who think spiritual advancement is about talking and books and ideas debate this truth endlessly. It is quite silly."
""Therefore is man only himself when lost to himself in The Charioting" -Liber 333
IAO131
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@craigp said
"** "reason is a lie"
**
one of my own personal demons (so to speak) on the Path is that awful voice telling me things like 'the astral plane doesn't exist, you're wasting time messing with all this hocus pocus" "science can't prove this hole magick business, stop living in a lie" regardless of any results.
normally i would try to personify this aspect and deal with it through
meditation or banishing but it won't work in this case because the nature of the problem is something that demands use in everyday mundane life.
does anyone have any advice or personals stories, links, quotes, or anything that can help me break down this wall?
**"Let me share my own story, which begins about a month and a half ago when I began to faithfully practice Liber Resh again as a 40-day experiment. I've practiced Resh plenty before, but never managed to come even close to actually getting up at dawn for more than 10 days in a row. I hadn't practiced Resh in a long time because frankly, I didn't know what all the symbolism meant, and was feeling kind of repulsed by Crowley and his Stele translation and so forth. The reasons are complex and now is not the appropriate place to go too deep into that, but simply put, I just didn't like it. Then I read something Jim said on this post,
"When a task (whether ritual, a particular reading, or whatever) is assigned and it grates, repulses, etc. - or even lesser forms of resistence -
then you can be sure that it's a personality issue. Your ego is resisting something. It's not always easy to tell what the "something" is, but it's always easy to know what to do about it: Persevere! Simply stop fighting it and set a period longer than seems comfortable - at least a month - during which you will persevere in this regardless. Observe what happens."So I assigned for myself the task of performing Liber Resh punctually and faithfully for 40 days, to observe what happens.
First, I was struck by a sudden and terrifying thought: What if Crowley is actually a Black Brother!? What if all of the entire system of the A.'.A.'. is actually an intentional blind, to lure aspirants with fantasies, to wrap them up in a spider-web of illusion so hopelessly that it becomes their robe, and they in turn become enemies of the truth?
This was where, amusingly enough, the conversation above, between Luke Skywalker and Yoda helped me: I decided that the only way I can know this is if it brings me peace, or if it does not. The only way I could find this out, was to persevere.Later, I was struck by a similar halting thought: Perhaps this is all just a big fuckin joke? What if there is no great spiritual truth behind these thelemic books, or any other holy book for that matter? "this," says Crowley, "is an imaginary mongoose." "A sucker is born every minute," is the secret Crowley whispers in The Book of Lies. I thought to myself, Have I just unwittingly discovered the Secret of Secrets? The far end of the rainbow? Glimpsed the author of the fairy tale? In Liber B, an instruction book for the magus, it is written, "In the beginning doth the Magus speak Truth, and send forth Illusion and Falsehood to enslave the soul. Yet therein is the Mystery of Redemption." Maybe the whole POINT of Crowley's system is to get us to believe this crap, and at then end reveal the punch-line: "JUST KIDDING
JOKE'S ON YOU!" and that "The length of thy longing shall be the strength of its glory," i.e. The longer you hold off the punchline, the funnier it will be. In other words, I thought to myself, did I just ruin the whole thing for myself?
But then I considered again: Am I at peace now? I think I've got it all figured out, but does this newfound theory actually help me understand myself and my world any better? No. All it does is make me think I've got it all figured out. "You can't just convince yourself that you're at the end of the rabbit hole- You can only speak knowledgeably until you've traveled all the way. This statement is the whole truth and nothing but the truth no matter which way you're seeing things," is what I wrote in my journal. So my conclusion was: This may be a joke, but I certainly don't know the punchline. Persevere.About 10 days after beginning the experiment, I began to grow weary of Resh. This being the point of the experiment, I was glad to be given the opportunity to persevere in the face of disgust. "subdue thy fear and thy disgust." What was disgusting me primarily were thoughts on how horribly class and aesthetic preference-specific Thelema and, generally, the whole of western occultism is. I was disgusted by how much of an obvious cultural construct it is. How could something so "deep" be so obviously geared toward white, male, middle-class intellectual spooky-wooky types? I mean just look at this fake-ass "worship" I'm doing: beating my breast all serious-faced at the sun, pretending to be a powerful and proud worshiper of an egyptoid god of war and vengeance, when in truth I wouldn't know my face from my asshole if I were plunked into the wilderness with nothing by my wits and my teeth, or if someone pulled a gun on me, or if I saw a mushroom cloud blossom from the heart of the city, or if I were even simply deprived of my dad's funding for 3 months. How the fuck is this fantasy worship helping me with the real world, and how would I be able to carry out Crowley's little system if, for example, I wasn't rich enough to constantly buy new journals to keep my record in (like a huge portion of earth's population)?:x
Then suddenly I'm interrupted from my irreverent reverie by my dusk alarm: Whoops! Time to go Resh! Hilariously, in this incident, I was forced to perform Resh right in front of the group of people with whom I was in the middle of expressing my spite towards magick and the practice of skeptical theurgy itself.
It was at this point that I realized that what was primarily bothering me about Thelema specifically and western occultism in general was the Image of it all. I was reminded of Liber 65, Ch.1,"2. Adonai spake unto V.V.V.V.V., saying: There must ever be division in the word.
- For the colours are many, but the light is one.
- Therefore thou writest that which is of mother of emerald, and of lapis-lazuli, and of turquoise, and of alexandrite.
- Another writeth the words of topaz, and of deep amethyst, and of gray sapphire, and of deep sapphire with a tinge as of blood.
- Therefore do ye fret yourselves because of this.
- Be not contented with the image.
- I who am the Image of an Image say this.
- Debate not of the image, saying Beyond! Beyond!"
I was definitely fretting over the colours.
Later, (more relevant to your "science & reason" inspired doubts) I was reading this (fascinating) science book called Animals in Translation. It was talking about the neurology of seeking behavior and superstitious behavior, all packaged in a western scientific evolutionary perspective. According to this perspective, those who display seeking behavior (which includes anything from foraging for food to spiritual pursuits), and those who draw causal connections (even false ones) between two events (i.e. I do a rain dance and evoke the water spirits, then it rains the next week! Wow, correlation!) tend to fare better and live long enough to reproduce than those who don't. All of our most valued experiences can be reduced down to chemically-driven evolutionary incentives. The reason why your spiritual pursuits make you feel good is simply the result of the dopamine released into your brain when you display seeking behavior, and nothing more. The exact same results would occur during electrical stimulation of the part of your brain that releases dopamine. There is no meaning behind any of it. Magick is a hoax. Love is a chemical trick played on the brain to get people to mate. This worship that you do each day amounts to little more than neurological masturbation.
This, after stewing around in my head for a bit, delivered quite a blow to my ideas of why I should be performing resh, and why I should have anything at all to do with magick and mysticism. I desperately grasped around in the dark for a reason to persevere. I felt like I needed meaning, and to let the foundation of my reasons and meaning crumble would be devastating. So I tried to write a paper to myself, trying to refute this scientific-reductionist idea with other ideas. Finding this to be utterly hollow (more ideas! UGH!), I finally recalled the words of men who came before me, and I wrote in my journal,
""The strong brown reaper swept his swathe and rejoiced. The wise man counted his muscles and pondered, and understood not, and was sad." "If will stops and cries why, then will stops and does naught." Do not ask "Why?", instead ask "what next?" Must you find and settle on a reason (a "Because") to persevere? Must you become a slave of because? You are no master- you do not know. Your Reasons are all ignorant, because there is much unknown to you. Love passionately, and nothing else."
I found the writings of Chuang Tzu to be of great help. Here is a paraphrased story of a young disciple of Lao Tzu who was in a similar situation as you and I:
"A disciple compained to master Keng:
"The eyes of all men seem to be alike, I detect no difference between them; yet some men are blind; their eyes do not see. Here I am, apparently like the other disciples, but there is a difference: They get your meaning and put it into practice; I cannot. You tell me wise words, but no matter how hard I try, "Tao" is only a word in my ear. It does not ring any bells inside."Keng replied, "I have nothing more to say. Go south and see Lao Tzu."
So the disciple traveled south for seven days and seven nights, alone, and came to Lao Tzu.
Upon arrival, Lao Tzu asked, "Who are all those people you have brought with you?"
The disciple whirled around to look. Nobody there. Panic!
Lao Tzu said, "Don't you understand?"
The disciple hung his head. Confusion!
Lao Tzu: "What have you come here to ask me?"
The disciple: "When I don't know, people treat me like a fool. When I do know, the knowledge gets me into trouble. When I fail to do good, I hurt others. When I do good, I hurt myself. If I avoid duty, I am remiss, but if I do it, I am ruined. How can I get out of these contradictions? This is what I came to ask you."Lao Tzu replied, "You are hemmed in by contradictions. You are scared to death, like a child who has lost father and mother. You have got lost, and are trying to find your way back to your own true self. You find nothing but illegible signposts, pointing in all directions. I pity you."
The disciple then asked for admittance, and there meditated, trying to cultivate qualities he thought desirable, and get rid of others which he disliked. Ten days of that! Despair!
"Miserable!" said Lao Tzu. "You are all tied up in knots! Do not try to hold onto Tao- Just hope that Tao will keep hold of you!"
The disciple groaned, "When a person is sick, if he can at least tell what is the matter, his sickness is not so bad. But for me, in my search for Tao, I am like a sick man who takes medicine that makes him ten times worse! Just tell me the first elements, and I will be satisfied!"
Lao Tzu said, "Can you foretell things to come without use of the I Ching? Do you know when to stop? Can you mind your own business without cares, or desiring reports of how others are progressing? Can you stand on your own feet? Can you be like an infant that cries all day without getting a sore throat, or clenches his fist all day without getting a sore hand, or gazes all day without eyestrain? You want the first elements? The infant has them. Free from care, unaware of self, he acts without reflection, stays where he is put, does not know why, does not figure things out, just goes along with them, is part of the current. These are the first elements!"
The disciple asked, "Is this perfection?"
Lao Tzu: "Not at all. It is only the beginning. This melts the ice. This enables you to unlearn, so that you can be led by Tao, be a child of Tao.
If you persist in making effort to obtain what effort cannot get; if you persist in reasoning about what cannot be understood, you will be destroyed by the very thing you seek.
To know when to stop, to know when you can get no further by your own action, this is the right beginning!"
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@bryan said
"To know when to stop, to know when you can get no further by your own action, this is the right beginning!""
Thank you for sharing that. It has some definite personal meaning for me.
The night I met Soror Meral - which was the night of my O.T.O. Minerval initiation in April 1979 - I expressed the state which, three months earlier, had led me to do a single magical act to find a teacher: "I've gone as far as I can on the Path by myself. I need a teacher to show me what to do next." That's pretty much word for word. I've rarely thought of that in decades. Your story puts it in a new perspective.
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I read somewhere that "Perfect perception is reflection". I haven't studied for very long or been initiated or do anything except experiment with LBRP and occasionally utter some cryptic verse. Here is my reasoning for continuing to study without skepticism.
If the occult wasn't real...it wouldn't be present in my life.
Belly dancing is not present in my life either, but the term signifies it's existence.
If you sit quietly and witness events, and meditate on the events their patterns emerge.
Perfect reflection is pure perception.
That which has a name carries weight(or colour) in the mental, astral, physical, etheric planes. There is that which is weightless and has no colour and cannot be named. I now call it Had.
