The Strange Egyptomaniacal Origin of Hadit
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@Tarotica said
"So, he was disappointed you hadn't really found "Hadit" in Budge. And they (OTO) had been searching for "Hadit" also and failed as well.
If your recollection of that conversation is accurate, it then raises a question about why years later Heidrick and others in OTO would have manufactured a false hieroglyphic explanation claiming that "Hadit" was really on the stele.
Your memory of this conversation suggests that was done knowingly and intentionally, presumably with the object of covering up the error, and making "Hadit" seem genuine in a purely antique way that was not really justified by the facts."
I like a good conspiracy theory now and then, but this one is just so silly. There's nothing here important enough here to justify the effort.
I prefer the U.S. Government to be involved in really serious conspiracy theories, and for there to have been real consequences, such as over 4,000 needlessly lost U.S. lives in exchange for vast enrichment of the power elite, or some such. Makes for better dramatic tension and the possibility of an explosive Act III finish.
You're acting like you've discovered the lost map to an ancient native American golden city, but your vast disclosure is about as important as, "Hey, my single male neighboor is starting to have Tampons show up in his garbage every Wednesday." Like, WTF cares one way or the other? (And, really, why are you digging through his bathroom waste basket, dude?)
So, just for the record: All of your supposition above is your spin on my story. It isn't my story and I'm not party to it. You're entitled to your spin, of course. (But anyone who thinks there was a Great Secret Collusion & Alliance between Lon DuQuette and Bill Heidrick in 1979-80 has missed most of the subtext of O.T.O. history of that time.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(to the point of accusing them of various conspiracies),"Well, if Lon actually understood "Hadit" wasn't on the stele, how do you explain his writing only a few years ago that Hadit is one of the "main figures that appear on the Stéle of Revealing"? Or the fact that Heidrick contended the "misspelling", i.e. "Hadit", was on the stele?"
Lon and Bill would have to speak for themselves.
For myself: I also refer frequently to Hadit being on the stele. I look at the painting, and He's right there. But the name "Hadit" isn't on the stele. IOW Hadit (who doesn't appear before April 1904 and is a newly articulated deity and whose name isn't on the sele) is represented to us by the same image that's on the stele. See, he's right there, under the cute indigo chick's belly.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"In other words, you're setting up straw soldiers to look so impressive when you blow them down over and over again."So, you view OTO's stated positions about the stele and Thelema as "straw"? "
LOL, trying to get good quotes out of me? I didn't say they are setting up straw soldiers, I said you are. I don't mind that you're writing fiction, or even that it's tawdry and petty fiction. I mind that it's bad fiction.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"From the responses you've gotten in various places, it should be clear by now that this isn't just a personal understanding of mine,"Agreed there may be different views, but your unsupported refutation of my position suggested that what I was saying was a clearly heretical or bizarre interpretation."
I don't use the word "heretical" very often in referring to Thelemic topics, and this probably doesn't reach "bizarre." Just seriously uninformed.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Also, most of your remarks just reinforce the original impression of your cluelessness about what you are saying."I think you might get further demonstrating it, than merely claiming it."
You aren't worth the bother and I have to leave for the airport in 55 minutes.
"Also, if you have something to teach me about the errors of my views, I'm listening (or reading). I'm sure others would appreciate your instruction as well. "
So far, there is no clue that you are listening (or reading). Instruction is above. It's all there. Please reread and then ask specific questions if necessary.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"You don't seem to have an ability to actually look at what you have written and see it independent of your fantasy of what you are saying."The problem is most of what I have written is based in facts. Not fantasy. And certainly not a need to believe in anything on faith."
I have no problem with your facts. It's when you start putting interpretations on your facts that you start moving from solid ground. The facts, in and of themselves, have no particular meaning. You then put meaning on them, and your meaning is contentious, baiting, and self-aggrandizing.
"As I pointed out, I think on a Lashtal thread, if the Egyptian names were not important, not appropriate or relevant, why even bother adapting them in the first place?"
You'd have to ask Aiwass. One could conjecture endlessly on the reasons but, bottom line, you'd have to ask the Cosmic Dude who did it.
"Why not have the Thelemic trinity of Sally, Bill, and Tom?"
Bad poetry, bad etymology, not rooted secretistically in the history of threads of deity names etc. (Guessing.)
Besides, Tom looks really silly naked and arched on tip-toe over the sprinkler in the back yard. If you had him arch over Bill, though, while Sally stood on the side and looked bemused, then we might have a religion. Work on it a bit and let us know, eh?
"Everything in occultism, and certainly everything Crowley had been taught and absorbed, told him that names, and the correct pronunciation of them, were of the most critical importance."
Exactly!
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@Jim Eshelman said
"There is a quite explicit break between the stele and The Book."And by this you mean if the stele says "red" and the book says "blue", then Thelemites must say "blue", because it's in the book. Correct?"
Exactly! You've managed to capture the basic points.
"But, what if the book says "blue" because Crowley thought that was the correct word for "red", even though it wasn't? Now the error is made perfect by the fact of its being in the book?"
Then there is no Thelema and we're all idiots to begin with; because if this is true, then The Book wasn't literally translated by Aiwass and taken down by Nuit's prophet in a form that must be preserved without changing so much as the style of a letter. And all the copies should be burned.
That's the core here: Regardless of anything that we think Liber L. might mean - regardless of personal interpretations, theology conventional or unconventional, or anything else that we do with its words and phrases - the sine qua non is the accepting of The Book of the Law as it is without altering a single letter - not even so much as the style of a letter. Take things from that starting point, that The Book, in this one sense, is perfect, and go forth from that one stable datum.
You're welcome to question such premises, of course. Non-Thelemites do it quite freely and understandably. But claiming acceptance of The Book of the Law (the foundation of Thelema) is, at best, hypocritical if disregards this primal point that The Book makes about itself at least twice.
"Yet, Crowley repeatedly affirmed that what was in the book was not merely necessarily true, but demonstrably so. And demonstrably so not merely to true believers, but to skeptics too."
Yes - its teachings. Not necessarily its academia. One has to embrace and live The Book of the Law for its instructions to be demonstrably true.
"Aiwass is alleged to be the minister of Hoor-paar-kraat.
Who is Hoor-paar-Kraat, Jim?"
The Egyptian one or the Thelemic one?
"Who is Horus?
Why is this, now, his Aeon?"
Start those as new threads. Good questions for discussion.
"You claim the book is approved by Aiwass because after all he channeled it through Crowley. How do we know this? Because the book is proof. "
The basis for our accepting this is that we had a first-hand witness and he told us this is what happened. One either finds the witness credible or not credible. If that particular witness is not credible on this particular topic, then we're all wasting time on anything we're doing on this forum.
"But again, that isn't what Crowley believed, or he wouldn't have stressed the ability of the book to demonstrate its alleged proof."
And have you read his specific proofs? For example, the extensive demonstrations he wrote in The Equinox of the Gods?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"My point is that "Hadit" (for example) is exactly what Aiwass meant Crowley to take down for the book,"And that is circular, and unconvincing to anyone except a faith-based believer."
Math isn't "faith-based," but a mathematical system begins with postulates that are unconditionally accepted within the framework of the math system.
The root postulate of Thelema is "Aiwass dictated The Book of the Law to Aleister Crowley, and The Book is to be accepted without changing it insomuch even as the style of a letter." We can argue meaning until the end of the Aeon, but the postulate, from which all the rest emerges, doesn't tolerate changing any of the letters.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"One accepts these unconditionally to the extent of having no desire or intent to alter them in so much as the style of a letter - or one does not so accept them."And that's because the book says so, right?"
Exactly! - Or (as I've added earlier in this present post) one rejects The Book, and you're welcome to do that.
"And we're supposed to accept that commandment because the book is allegedly the product of a praeternatural intelligence, Aiwass, and not a man, Aleister Crowley."
Or for whatever reason. Your reasons don't matter. Only your choices and actions matter. The method of Thelema is karma yoga, and the first word of our Law is DO. So - you accept The Book in toto or not - your choice, your deed. I don't much care what your reasons are for your personal decision either way, because they don't likely match anyone else's reasons.
"And according to you the reason we're supposed to accept that is faith."
I wouldn't apply that word, but I probably use the word differently than you use it. Want to give me your definition?
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@Uni_Verse said
"The question then becomes, where is Ra Hoor Khut?"
The entity you have labelled "Aiwass" is Ra-Hoor-Khuit. Aiwass isn't in the picture.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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The entity you have labelled "Aiwass" is Ra-Hoor-Khuit. Aiwass isn't in the picture.
"I was thinking of the Stele in terms of Chap III, v 22 (to put it in context).
Where, the others are the "Beast and his Bride" ; so it would be Crowley/Aiwass , Hadit/Nuit.
The stele itself being Ra-Hoor-Khuit as he is the "visible object of worship."
I am aware that this is not the 'normal' interpretation, just fooling around with the imagery in a moment of inspiration
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Uni_Verse said
"The question then becomes, where is Ra Hoor Khut?"The entity you have labelled "Aiwass" is Ra-Hoor-Khuit. Aiwass isn't in the picture."
Yes He is. He's sitting on a pedestal behind Ra-Hoor-Khuit twittering in His ear, as is His Wont.
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@nashimiron said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Uni_Verse said
"The question then becomes, where is Ra Hoor Khut?"The entity you have labelled "Aiwass" is Ra-Hoor-Khuit. Aiwass isn't in the picture."
Yes He is. He's sitting on a pedestal behind Ra-Hoor-Khuit twittering in His ear, as is His Wont.
"Crowley made Aiwass coterminous with Ra-Hoor-Khuit/Horus in attributing them both to Kether.
He claims in Liber Samekh that they are the same.
He claims that it took him 16(?) years to realize that RHK is his Angel cloaked in martial symbols.
IAO131
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I find the below comments interesting:
@Jim Eshelman said
"There is a quite explicit break between the stele and The Book. Your own research provides the evidence for this. That discontinuity is itself a message. (Just to make one of several possible points.)"
@Jim Eshelman said
"It wasn't the text of the stele that Aiwass wanted to appaer in Liber L., it was the paraphrase that Crowley wrote. How do we know? Because that's what He told him to insert. This demonstrates a very well articulated break from the old Egyptian sources and the introduction of something new."
If Liber Legis represents a connection with the Stele, but also introduction of something new, would you say that is because the Word of the New Aeon is first and foremost one of the English alphabet - hence one of the reasons AC was chosen by the Secret Chiefs as the vehicle of transmission?
Would you say the Nuit->Hadit->RHK progression in Liber Legis represents an elucidation of Akhenaton's reformation of the Egyptian religion so that access to Ra is no longer a priviledge of only royalty?
Tarotica - you mentioned seeing AC's notes on the gematria of Hadit scrawled on the back page of the Stele paraphrase. Can you provide a scan of these notes? I would be very interested in seeing them.
Thanks!
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@h2h said
"If Liber Legis represents a connection with the Stele, but also introduction of something new, would you say that is because the Word of the New Aeon is first and foremost one of the English alphabet - hence one of the reasons AC was chosen by the Secret Chiefs as the vehicle of transmission?"
No, I wouldn't say that - especially since both the Word of the Aeon and the Word of the Law are non-English.
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@h2h said
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Tarotica - you mentioned seeing AC's notes on the gematria of Hadit scrawled on the back page of the Stele paraphrase. Can you provide a scan of these notes? I would be very interested in seeing them.
Thanks!"That request has been made countless times on other forums but has always been ignored. I doubt we're ever going to see a scan of these phantom scrawlings.
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@h2h said
"If Liber Legis represents a connection with the Stele, but also introduction of something new, would you say that is because the Word of the New Aeon is first and foremost one of the English alphabet - hence one of the reasons AC was chosen by the Secret Chiefs as the vehicle of transmission?"
Uh, no. The Word of the New Aeon is first and foremost one of the Greek alphabet if you didn't notice. It also mentions Thebes and quite a few Greek 'deities' in the other Holy Books.
Also : especially not since Liber AL itself says "This book shall be translated into all tongues: but always with the original in the writing of the Beast; for in the chance shape of the letters and their position to one another: in these are mysteries that no Beast shall divine." (III:47)
"Would you say the Nuit->Hadit->RHK progression in Liber Legis represents an elucidation of Akhenaton's reformation of the Egyptian religion so that access to Ra is no longer a priviledge of only royalty?"
How does that progression have anything to do with Ra not being the priviledge?
Even further: is Ra no longer a priviledge of only royalty?
"Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known." (I:10)
It always has been open to everyone and it always has been the strong and enduring to attained thereto.
"21. We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world." (II:21)
"Tarotica - you mentioned seeing AC's notes on the gematria of Hadit scrawled on the back page of the Stele paraphrase. Can you provide a scan of these notes? I would be very interested in seeing them.
Thanks!"
Crowley alternately put HAD as 9 and 10, often combining with 56 (Nu) for 65 (HGA/LVX/union, etc., adds to 11) and 66 (11 (Magick) * 6 (Solar), ∑(1-11))
IAO131
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@h2h said
"If Liber Legis represents a connection with the Stele, but also introduction of something new, would you say that is because the Word of the New Aeon is first and foremost one of the English alphabet - hence one of the reasons AC was chosen by the Secret Chiefs as the vehicle of transmission?"No, I wouldn't say that - especially since both the Word of the Aeon and the Word of the Law are non-English."
Sorry the “Word of the New Aeon” was phrased badly, let's try again:
This whole Hadit issue questions the relationship between a body of writing (Liber Legis -dictated by Aiwaz) and an ancient foreign artefact at the center of that body (the Stele - not dictated by Aiwaz).
Tarotica concludes from his analysis of Hadit that 1) AC’s account of the reception of Liber Legis is suspect since a Secret Chief would not allow this translation “error” to occur and 2) the name “Hadit” resulted from AC’s gematria before the dates of the Cairo Working. You, on the other hand, state that 1) AC’s fidelity to the Stele is not important and 2) what is important is his fidelity to the instructions of Aiwaz.
Working off your interpretation, the validity of Liber Legis is pinned solely on Aiwaz who is central to, yet external of AC, mirroring the Stele that is central to, yet external of Liber Legis. We know the Stele is real; we are **not sure **if Aiwaz is real. What we **do **know is that 1) Liber Legis contains a poetic paraphrase of the Stele and 2) the New Aeon transforms Egyptian god-forms into Thelemic ones – all channeled through an “entity” named Aiwaz.
I trust no one has serious problems with the above so far.
While I regard AC’s ambivalence and uncertainty toward Aiwass/Aiwaz – mirroring his attitude toward the language of Liber Legis – as a mark of authenticity of the Cairo Working, it would be mental laziness to take his account on faith. I therefore looked at the lynchpin holding Liber Legis together, Aiwass/Aiwaz, to find clues.
We know Aiwass is the “minister” of the **silent **god Hoor-paar-kraat, Horus the Child, whose Aeon is being announced:
www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/HarpocrateThat is, the Babe God **cannot be heard **without its minister Aiwass. The Greek gematria of “Aiwass”, the name originally written down in the Cairo Working, came to 418. Years later upon questioning by Samuel Jacobs, AC changed the entity’s name to Aiwaz, the gematria of which comes to 93. These two names of the entity represent the Magickal Formula and Law of the New Aeon, namely Abrahadabra and Thelema. AC noted in Confessions that “[418] represents the practice of the Book as 93 does the theory” and I think it is important to note the chronological order of the names, first “Aiwass” in Cairo, then years later “Aiwaz”. That is, the magickal formula/praxis was recorded first and the theory/codification was discovered later:
Aiwass = 418 = Abrahadabra = voice
Aiwaz = 93 = Thelema = intentMy translation: 93 justifies 418
Further, I could not help but note the name “Aiwaz” contains the first and last letter of the English alphabet in those same positions. This fact, along with the statement “this book shall be translated into all tongues: but always with the original in the writing of the Beast”, suggests the Thelemic current is contained within the **English alphabet **and intended to disseminate from that particular language.
To list the information:
Aiwass/Aiwaz = an agent of paraphrase/translation/transformation
Aiwass/Aiwaz=minister of the silent god Haar-poor-kraat
Aiwass = 418 = Abrahadabra = I create as I speak = the practice or means of Liber Legis
Aiwaz = 93 = Thelema = intent = the theory of Liber LegisMy conclusions:
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Aiwass/Aiwaz **is not **a human being who evolved into a higher discarnate being, but a principle of language or Logos. The name suggests Liber Legis is either 1) a literary fabrication that was discovered after the fact to be inspired, in which Aiwass names the method and Aiwaz legitimizes that creative utterance after the fact, or 2) the product of a timeless Logos that AC accessed by accident during the Cairo Working and the significance of which was only discovered later. Haar-poor-kraat "speaking forth" via Aiwass = the Babe God playing with words to create a New Aeon. Neither of the above necessarily excludes automatic writing.
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The New Aeon is merely stating old truths in new form
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@Aum418 said
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"Would you say the Nuit->Hadit->RHK progression in Liber Legis represents an elucidation of Akhenaton's reformation of the Egyptian religion so that access to Ra is no longer a priviledge of only royalty?"How does that progression have anything to do with Ra not being the priviledge?
Even further: is Ra no longer a priviledge of only royalty?
"Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known." (I:10)
It always has been open to everyone and it always has been the strong and enduring to attained thereto."
Previously, only Egyptian priests and royalty had access to the magical formulas to assist in the afterlife in reuniting with Ra and thereby reinserting themselves back into the cosmic cycle.
The Hadit->RHK progression suggests a formula of the sun-seed in everyone that develops into the active form of RHK. Where the Egyptians seemed to think that the fortunate deceased souls eventually made it to the same place (Ra), the Hadit->RHK progression suggests that everyone has the potential to become individual suns. Even science tells us that stars can become suns.
That's what I meant by suggesting the Nuit-Hadit-RHK progression was an elaboration of Akhenaton's monotheism.
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I generally agree with Jim's refutation of Tarotica's conclusions, but I do have to quibble with the following...
@Jim Eshelman said
"One either finds the witness credible or not credible. If that particular witness is not credible on this particular topic, then we're all wasting time on anything we're doing on this forum."
My jokey response would be "speak for yourself, kemosabe." Seriously, though, it's only of secondary importance to me if Crowley felt the need to prevaricate about the Cairo Marvel Story. Would the impact and sublimity of the contents of the Book of the Law be lessened if it turned out to be automatic writing after a few too many puffs on the hookah? I don't think so.
Now, would it weaken my opinion of Crowley's character if I found out with certainty that he knowingly lied about "audible dictation" and whatnot? Probably. But Liber Apotheosis already demonstrated a lot about Crowley's character, too.
But should character enter into this? In my work, I reference the useful scientific discoveries of Heisenberg and Debye without being overly concerned that they worked for the Nazis. (Sorry for the potentially inflammatory example... I can't think of a better one...)The idea of accepting the Book "without altering a single letter" is a separate matter, I think. Seems only fair not to muck with an original source. Publishing the photostats of the manuscript along with the typescript is important to forestall inevitable "drifts" in typography and meaning over the years. Also, all of the putative 4th chapters that I've seen are kind of kooky.
@Jim Eshelman said
"But claiming acceptance of The Book of the Law (the foundation of Thelema) is, at best, hypocritical if disregards this primal point that The Book makes about itself at least twice."
Many statements in the Book appear to be non-literal. Years of study and discernment may lead to conviction about which verses are literal and which are not, but I'm not ready (yet??) to accept someone else's word on which are which.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The root postulate of Thelema is "Aiwass dictated The Book of the Law to Aleister Crowley, and The Book is to be accepted without changing it insomuch even as the style of a letter.""
Strangely, I do accept the above. I also think it's most likely that Crowley truly experienced the events as he reported them. My interpretation of those experiences is different from his, though, and I'm certain that Thelema is a big enough "tent" for that. (The major area of wriggle-room is the question: "Who or what is Aiwass?") I'm extremely skeptical that the reception of the Book, or the contents of the Book itself, comprise any kind of "proof" of supernatural beings. Doesn't change my love for the poetry, power, and practical usefulness of the Book!
Steve
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@h2h said
"You, on the other hand, state that 1) AC’s fidelity to the Stele is not important and 2) what is important is his fidelity to the instructions of Aiwaz. "
Actually, my point was that Aiwass' infidelity to the stele is important only to the extent that it shows a departure.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"You're acting like you've discovered the lost map to an ancient native American golden city, but your vast disclosure is about as important as, "Hey, my single male neighboor is starting to have Tampons show up in his garbage every Wednesday.""
I've seen this criticism from a number of people, who seem compelled in spite of this alleged unimportance and irrelevance to continue to post lengthy replies to my article and posts.
The interest level denies its lack of importance. So does the level of concern (to put it politely) on the part of some of the people trying to discredit what I am saying.
@Jim Eshelman said
"So, just for the record: All of your supposition above is your spin on my story. It isn't my story and I'm not party to it."
You're not party to your alleged conversation with Lon? I think my statements concerning it are not "spin", but reasonable inferences and questions.
If Lon admits OTO was aware of "that one", and presumably what it meant, then why would Heidrick and others concoct a false hieroglyphic explanation of it?
Jim, is this the first time you've heard of Heidrick's "Ba-Hadit" explanation? Or his claim that the "misspelling" was on the stele?
@Jim Eshelman said
"(But anyone who thinks there was a Great Secret Collusion & Alliance between Lon DuQuette and Bill Heidrick in 1979-80 has missed most of the subtext of O.T.O. history of that time."
Where did I say anything about a collusion between those two in 1979-80?
Or for that matter in any particular year? My first knowledge of Heidrick's theory occurred in 1995.
My only knowledge of what Lon thought and when comes from his own published words, which I've mentioned, and your claim about a conversation you had with him, apparently back in 1979-80.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Lon and Bill would have to speak for themselves."
I contacted Lon and told him about what you said. He hasn't replied back with any comment. And Bill publicly declared he had nothing more to say on the matter 10 years ago. I think he's stuck to that.
Seems this is a sensitive matter for them.
@Jim Eshelman said
"For myself: I also refer frequently to Hadit being on the stele."
But you don't blame hieroglyphics for that, do you?
And, it's one thing to say it to yourself. It's quite another to make a public representation of this as fact, and without any explanation of what exactly you mean.
@Jim Eshelman said
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LOL, trying to get good quotes out of me?"Don't seem to have to try, Jim. You're happy to provide them.
@Jim Eshelman said
"I didn't say they are setting up straw soldiers, I said you are."
Actually, you said that respecting my quoting the OTO Grand Lodge website contradicting what you said about the non-Egyptian nature of the Thelemic deities.
So, if I was setting up a straw soldier in that case, it would have been OTO's opinion—which however on that point I wasn't attempting to knock down at all. I did give you an opportunity to do so, but you seem to have thought better of it.
@Jim Eshelman said
"I don't mind that you're writing fiction"
I know. If this was "Chemical Wedding", we'd all have a big laugh, and know it doesn't matter in the least.
No, you mind that I'm writing facts.
@Jim Eshelman said
"I don't use the word "heretical" very often in referring to Thelemic topics, and this probably doesn't reach "bizarre." Just seriously uninformed."
OK, so is the OTO Grand Lodge Website seriously uninformed on this point too?
@Jim Eshelman said
"You aren't worth the bother"
You're sure writing a lot of words for something not worth the bother.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Please reread and then ask specific questions if necessary."
OK.
What else did you and Lon talk about respecting "Hadit" and its presence or lack of same on the stele?
And did you ever discuss this matter with other OTO members, such as Heidrick or Bill Breeze? If so, what was said about it?
@Jim Eshelman said
"I have no problem with your facts."
Well, it's good you acknowledge I have some, given you wrote above I was just writing "fiction".
@Jim Eshelman said
"It's when you start putting interpretations on your facts that you start moving from solid ground."
I have repeatedly posed my points about OTO's "conspiracies" as questions. But they are questions raised upon reasonable suspicions, given the facts.
If you disagree, then explain why we should think OTO's failure to explain this "Hadit" question in plain terms (acknowledging the error AND the false hieroglyphic explanation) is innocent.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The facts, in and of themselves, have no particular meaning."
The fact Heidrick and others in OTO have been telling us something about "Hadit" that isn't true has no meaning?
Why is that?
@Jim Eshelman said
"You then put meaning on them, and your meaning is contentious, baiting, and self-aggrandizing."
How so?
@Jim Eshelman said
"Then there is no Thelema and we're all idiots to begin with; because if this is true, then The Book wasn't literally translated by Aiwass and taken down by Nuit's prophet in a form that must be preserved without changing so much as the style of a letter. And all the copies should be burned."
They should be burned?
Why is that?
Because you would have wasted your time believing in a silly story?
Jim, do you really believe there was a spirit entity (or Secret Chief) called Aiwass that translated Liber AL for Crowley to transcribe in 1904?
What is your evidence for believing that?
@Jim Eshelman said
"without altering a single letter"
And you really think that happened? In spite of Crowley plainly saying he had to edit the thing afterward because he didn't "hear" some of it, and because the paraphrase part wasn't even recorded in the Working since he could add that later? Note that Aiwass in other words would have acted like a politician talking to a speechwriter, piecing together things that he supposedly agreed with but did not in fact write himself.
Again, to a skeptic, what this points to is a deliberate act of imaginative literary creation on the part of Crowley, not a praeternatural intervention from timeless cosmic guardians.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes - its teachings. Not necessarily its academia. One has to embrace and live The Book of the Law for its instructions to be demonstrably true."
That isn't what Crowley said. He said it contained elements which should prove convincing even to skeptics, and to people who hadn't lived one day of its instructions.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The basis for our accepting this is that we had a first-hand witness"
Actually, you had two first-hand witnesses. If the Working was so convincing, why wasn’t Rose impressed sufficiently to become something other than a disposable Scarlet Woman? Is it because she well understood the whole thing was just an elaborate romantic play, essentially a gift she offered to her beloved husband?
@Jim Eshelman said
"One either finds the witness credible or not credible."
My experience in the occult and in studying occultists is that black and white approaches to understanding them and their work are not generally helpful.
Case in point, Crowley is demonstrably not credible on his claims about a praeternatural intelligence authoring Liber AL. Reason? The evidence he pointed to as the most convincing possible (the Tarot key adjustment) didn’t hold up.
It doesn’t necessarily follow from this that everything in Liber AL, and everything Crowley wrote is a waste of time.
It just means the strong, and I would say concincing, likelihood is that Crowley, not something called Aiwass, wrote Liber AL.
@Jim Eshelman said
"And have you read his specific proofs? For example, the extensive demonstrations he wrote in The Equinox of the Gods?"
Jim, which one or two of those alleged demonstrations do you find the most convincing? And why so?
@Jim Eshelman said
"Math isn't "faith-based,""
Actually, at some point it is.
And more pertinently, belief in myth certainly is.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The root postulate of Thelema is "Aiwass dictated The Book of the Law to Aleister Crowley"
And just to clarify this point once again, if that isn’t literally true, people should burn all copies of Liber AL, correct?
And that doesn’t strike you as being the histrionic reaction of a disappointed true believer?
(jk)
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@h2h said
"Tarotica - you mentioned seeing AC's notes on the gematria of Hadit scrawled on the back page of the Stele paraphrase. Can you provide a scan of these notes? I would be very interested in seeing them."
Actually, that isn't what I said. What I said was that his Qabalistic calculations were written on the back of the French translation, that is the prose translation.
But I also never said I had a scan of anything. I said I had handwritten notes, taken at the time I viewed the material a number of years ago.
I would ask this. If I posted scans of the pages, how would you know they were images of the backs of the pages of the documents in question, and not something I concocted to fool you into believing in my "conspiracy theory"?
For that matter, given that some people claim to have seen these documents, and have published regarding them, it is odd I think that none of them have ever mentioned this before.
Perhaps we should ask them why they haven't.
If their reply is that they saw nothing on the backs of the pages, then we may have more to talk about on this point.
(jk)
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@Tarotica said
"I would ask this. If I posted scans of the pages, how would you know they were images of the backs of the pages of the documents in question, and not something I concocted to fool you into believing in my "conspiracy theory"?"
Don't worry about me. Just post whatever information you have.
Just to clarify:
- You have personally seen AC's notes written on the back page of the French translation or read about them in a second hand source?
- Who are the people that have claimed to see the French translation and written about it, but made no mention of the notes?
- Where is the original French translation document archived?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
No, I haven't the foggiest idea where you're going. (Or, rather, I hope I don't.)Yes, I now some things about HB's choice of a name, was there when he picked and for the days after. However (since I presume you will next ask me to tell what I know), I'll say now that I'm not talking.
I will add that there were predictable jokes about it the next day (all in good humor). I began to refer to the "Beta Testing" phase of the O.T.O. One of the other Ninth Degrees referred to the new king as "The Grand Master-Beta."
Grady was given his name by Crowley. The story as made public by him in various ways is that Crowley asked Grady his True Will. Grady, a young U.S. soldier on duty in WW II, answered, "To get laid." Crowley then wrote a sophisticated Qabalistic explanation of this name, which he offered to Grady (the letter was published in a late 70s, or early 80s issue of The O.T.O. Newsletter). Grady's contemporaries from Agape Lodge at that time told me that the word then circulated was that Crowley's real intent in the name for Grady was the idea of "Marrying Fool.""
Just to clarify, I am not interested in OTO politics; my interest is in Liber Legis.
Thanks for that information on Grady, but I wouldn’t trust AC’s “explanation” of why he gave that name to HA. Yes, Hymen is the god of marriage but another meaning could be the OHO is the keeper of a veiled secret. My only question is whether Bill chose his name himself or whether it was known in advance that the name for Grady’s successor would be “Hymenaeus Beta”.
Would you agree that Liber Legis is a profoundly ironic text?
