Mystery is the enemy of truth.
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@MaKher said
"When you get the chance, I'd like to "hear" your thoughts regarding the formal initiation concept in greater detail."
There just isn't time to write essays like that. I took time this morning and, unfortunately, lost half the post (part of which would have answered you further). There's not much worth saying without saying it all, that's a many hours orientation in the subject.
"Perhaps you've read my initial post under my "self-initiation" topic? If so, I'd also like to hear any comments or observations you have regarding that endeavor and the means of attempting to simulate the A:.A:.'s system for solitary progress."
Haven't read it. However, my position is as stated in the book: I'll happily provide the information, but I don't think it's the way to go. The effort will certainly be valuable, but that's not the same as saying one is working the system. In fact, without someone to monitor, direct, and evaluate your work, it's essentially impossible to work the system.
"Regarding this A:.A:. simulation, I intend to use the ritual outlined in Liber Pyramidos to self-initiate at the end of my year of Probation, assuming that I find my magical record to reflect sufficient work to allow me to pass to "Neophyte" status."
Whatever.
"I suppose that guarding against such eventualities is another advantage to the system employed by your Order and Temple."
Acdtually, it's built in to the A.'.A.'. system itself.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Understood, on all points. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, and the permutations/tangents which have grown therefrom. There are a few points on which we disagree, to be sure, however, I'm not on this board to argue, but to increase my own understanding, and hopefully to help others to do the same.
I'll grant that arguments can open alternative points of view for general consideration. However, I've observed that it is frequently the case on internet discussion boards that arguments tend to be less than productive. As such, I don't feel the urge to indulge this, nor do I feel it incumbent upon me to convince others of my opinion when that is all that it is: an opinion. "Argue not. Convert not." An opinion is irrelevant to this, and has no intrinsic value.
So, thank you again for taking the time to answer my questions, and share your insights.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Dion Fortune catalogued three stages - I would say concentric circles - along the Path. These were from at least two of the channelled communications she received from her Third Order contacts and were originally presented as a description of how the Order itself is to be structured."
Is this in her published work?
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No, it's not.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The first is that I really have no confidence in nor respect in people trying this stuff on their own."
Many governments and religions have lead humanity astray. So there is in some people a distrust to authority, leaders, teachers, masters, and all of that. Propaganda and education have been mixed too, so there is later also some peope distrusting education.
Magick training is not popular or common; the schools are rare, and I bet there are many false / corrupt magick teachers just as there are false and corrupt political and religion teachers.
The result? Most occultists, witches, magicians, psychics, shamans, energy-workers and all the rest, have not gone through a good school, or any school of magick. They're either going to try this on their own, or not at all. So I just call them all chaos magicians.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but describing perception.
It looks to me like most occulty spiritual people never went through any schools of magick, though they read books about it. MaKheru wanted more books to be released to the public, of secret mysteries; probably for the no-school, book reading majority, of the occulty peoples.
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I am surprised there is as much material released as there is.
Thinks back to D&D playing days and hearing about wizards killing each other over spell books
It really is all just preliminary work before initiation. However, I wonder about the initiating current coming from men.
Doesn't initiation really come from the HGA through knowledge and conversation thereof? -
93,
"It really is all just preliminary work before initiation. However, I wonder about the initiating current coming from men.
Doesn't initiation really come from the HGA through knowledge and conversation thereof?
"Initiation marks the beginning of the process, which is completed much later in the K&C of the HGA. So, something else has to commence the process, or non-one ever gets anywhere.
The current doesn't come <i>from</i> men - or women. Officers in a ritual take on certain roles that mean they are prepared to <i>transmit</i> certain energies that trigger the first steps in the long road to K&C. That's what a magician is trained to do - to get him/herself out of the way, so that more than something personal or even individual can be passed through him or her.
As I see it, the problem with self-initiation is that almost inevitably, we set up a ritual that serves our personal needs. We ask for what we want, work for what we want, visualize what we want, and invoke what we want. Or that we <i>think</i> we need. That strikes me as a very good way to ensure that in reality, we block or at least circumscribe our chance to progress. Proper initiation triggers an aspiration <i>beyond</i> consciously comprehended desires, needs and hopes. And the officers partaking in the ceremony should be able to formulate and direct the energies in the rite so that this is the primary aim, and the primary effect.
What the new initiate then does is up to him/her. Usually, there are strong reactions of both a positive and negative character, and having a group of people around who have been through this stage will help stabilize the newly sparked aspiration. Getting used to supra-personal concepts and energies is more easily done in a properly formulated mystery school.
93 93/93,
EM
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Yet those prophets and holy men in the past were without directed initiating currents.
Liber ABA in commenting on the lives of Christ Buddha and Mohammed states that the only common thing in their lives is "Omission". Going off into the wilderness on a vision quest.
"A Nobody goes away, and comes back a Somebody."
I do not doubt that the ordeals and rites of initiation work. In fact I'm waiting for circumstances in my life to change before I arrive at initiation...However, I think this method is very specialized in the general field of occultism.You know you run into so many people that label themselves 9th generation witches....it becomes meaningless. Nearly every book on wicca I have read has chapters on self-initiation and being "solitary" practictioner.
Like all the 10th degree super Soke Hanshi Karateka in the world of martial arts. Meaningless.
I agree with you that there are problems with self initiation. -
93,
If we accept the Gospel stories, Jesus sought and was given an initiation by John the Baptist in the River Jordan. Mohammed had what we might call spontaneous initiation at the hands of the Archangel Gabriel when he received the "Clots of Blood" sura in the Koran. But he was not ignorant of religion, nor uninstructed, at that point. He was a seeker for years before, and already a devout man when that first sura was given. He did not seek what he was given, and was terrified by the experience.
Buddha underwent considerable training after leaving home, which presumably included some form of initation into one or more schools. The fact that he <i>completed</i> his process on his own is a separate issue. Most people, I imagine, find that the climactic stages of the path are intimately individual. And his enlightenment, surely, followed a crossing of the Abyss, or perhaps a transit of the path of Daleth: something no-one but himself could have triggered or performed.
I've not heard of a Master in the Wiccan tradition, but I would bet their more advanced practitioners have had some interesting exchanges with others along the way.
93 93/93,
EM
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@PainMeridian said
"Yet those prophets and holy men in the past were without directed initiating currents."
Oh?
"Liber ABA in commenting on the lives of Christ Buddha and Mohammed states that the only common thing in their lives is "Omission". Going off into the wilderness on a vision quest."
But, according to their histories, at least the first two had significant prior training. (The history isn't so clear to me in Mohammed's case, but I have my suspicions.)
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I see some interesting points developed here. I think it would be proper, as far as my initial comments are concerned, to characterize them a bit further. Yes, I am working solo, NOW. I was initiated into Magick several years ago by one whom I shall refer to as D.X. He was not a member of any particular school, but had been trained by a circle of sorts well before he instructed me. And, as regards some of the prior statements regarding my motives, yes, he was, and still is, a Chaos magician. If that is the label employed here regarding anybody who is working on their own, then you can call me such, as well, though I choose to utilize the Thelemic symbols, god-names, etc., largely because they represent well the universe as I perceive it, and I figure it is better to let names stand as they are than to rearrange them, simply to "be different".
More recently, I received a great deal of training in Mysticism from a man I'll call A.v.Th.
That said, yes, I do work largely from books, to expand beyond my training into new areas. But, I do have grounding in practical training. My work derived from A:.A:.'s system is meant only to guide ME on a path to higher attainments, rather than simply the exercise of the basics as taught by D.X. and A.v.Th. I have no intention of claiming that my work based on the Order's system fits me to claim any grade soever. I do not now, nor shall I, claim to represent the A:.A:. in any manner. I am simply utilizing their model to aid my own development.
As I previously stated, I would, after considering Mr. Eshelman's words on the subject, be sorely disappointed to see the Order release their secrets. At the same time, I would find them useful as methods to expand my own research and experimentation.
That said, I agree entirely with the prior characterizations of the past "Holy Men" as having received some sort of initiation prior to their attainments. I would not be anywhere near where I am now had I tried to work from the very start on my own. I trained with these two teachers of mine for years. In fact, my mystical teacher and I still get together rather often to pursue my work. He lives but 200 miles from me, so we can regularly commute back and forth.
Without guidance and instruction of some form, one is rather unlikely to get much of anywhere. No matter how perfectly a ritual is performed, it is highly unlikely that useful results will occur based off of what counts for little more than play-acting.
I suppose that "self-initiation" was a rather poor choice of words on my part, leading to some little controversy over something I didn't correctly word. "Self-development" would have been a better choice of words, as initiation, for me, was performed by two men outside of myself, at least, for those most important of initiations: those that set one on a Path. The initiation that my solitary path is directed toward is that which is to be presided over by only one being: the Holy Guardian Angel.
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@MaKher said
"
In short, it is not the responsibility of any Order or Temple to protect us from our own failings. It is the responsibility of every star to determine for itself the course appropriate to it."Hmm, I think you might have the wrong end of the stick there.
"Mystery is the enemy of truth" is related to speaking openly of the A:.A:. and its principles, not necessarily of its practices.
Some things are "self-secret" (i.e. you won't cotton on to the jargon till you've had experience); and some things just have to be secret because they have more impact when given by a guru to their chela.
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@MaKher said
"What good does it do for the evolution of human consciousness to hoard mystical secrets, "
For the sake of not casting pearls before swine. With what is published in this world, anyone can attain to the highest state possible for a human to achieve. But if you cant see your own inner light, you certainly wont see the light contained within mysterious texts...
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@Parsifal said
"For the sake of not casting pearls before swine. With what is published in this world, anyone can attain to the highest state possible for a human to achieve. But if you cant see your own inner light, you certainly wont see the light contained within mysterious texts..."
I agree that the highest state can be attained with what is already in publication. I might also go so far as to say, each person already has what they need inside them.
I normally see the big secret as.. what is secret. People are spitting out the "secrets" all the time, with the secret being that the information is secret.
In a way, all Thelemites who work on their own are Choas Magicians. They are given Choas, the works of Thelema in one sum. Picking out things as they come, instead of being handed things in an orderly fashion.
Sometimes, we already know something, perhaps have repeated it to our selves, but it is not till it comes from another persons mouth that we realize its true depths.
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93
As Mr Eshelman points out, there are stages of spiritual development and they are less age-specific than other such stages. Ask yourself - if an angry 7 year old comes running to you because he just got beaten up by the school bully, do you say:
"OK, I know how you can win. Here's a loaded gun, I'll explain how to use it."
In giving the gun and the instruction you wouldn't be lying, and as for us all being adults, there are reasons why governments don't publish detailed instructions on how to make a suitcase bomb.
The same principle can apply.
And without wishing to sound like I'm ingratiating myself, everyone, including a lot of people in the UK, could learn a lot from Mr Eshelman's attitude towards magical obligations.
93 93/93
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I agree with secrecy and i think that its important for a number of reasons.
Each ritual is an energy in itself, and when dispersed for public usage, becomes filled with public (and often unbalanced, and mundane) energy. Compare, for example, how you feel in your bathroom at home compared to the bathroom in a gas station, its kind of like that (at least for me).
Furthermore without the proper understanding, being exposed to lofty spiritual and magickal ideas is only bound to mislead- look at how many various "opinions" there are about being Above the Abyss, but the truth is the truth and peoples opinions dont matter, though more often then not it will impede their development and any chance of ever succeeding such a trial.
Part of Initiation is shock and surprise, of not knowing what lay ahead, of not reading the back of the book for the answers, cause then you never learn the formula.
Those who just want "the secrets" and think they are held back because some jerk wont let them in on it are deluding themselves severely, and are seeking Magickal power and Initiation for what is likely the wrong reasons.
93
93/93
Parsifal -
Its been a while, I felt the need to revisit old ambitions. In regards to this topic, I must fully acknowledge that my attitude was in complete error. The presented drive for secrets, for learning all the official tricks, was a manifestation of an effort to escape from doing real work. If one can occupy oneself with reading, ad nauseum, one can easily feel satisfied that one is trying to progress in understanding, but not have to perform any real work.
In the many months since I posted to this topic, I've busied myself with yoga, astral travel and ritual work, and I've found far more productive results in these exercises than in study. I've read so much that I have a hard time finding a book on Magick that has anything particularly new to say. (That is, of course, not to say that I can't learn anything more. I know I have a hell of a lot to learn; a great deal more than I've learned already, in fact.) My experiments have been rather elementary in nature, simple concentration in the case of yoga, and rituals essentially boiling down to regular performance of Rituals XXV, XXXVI, and V, etc.
I feel I should, in review of my altered understanding, apologize for my occasionally rude, and clearly misguided requests. They were motivated firstly by my laziness, and secondly by irritations of my ego. I had seen regular references to the "correct" ways of performing rituals, getting "out", and so forth, and I found it annoying that I would be barred from knowing the "correct" methods. This annoyance was born of a misunderstanding of the term "correct." In my present state, I take this to mean that the correct version is merely the version which follows the intended technical procedure. This correctness does not mean that personal variations are, in any way, wrong. They are simply not the intended course as conceived by the Order, or, more specifically, the founder thereof. Previously, I took these references to correct methods as attacks, saying that I was doing my work wrong.
Again, I've come to a more useful understanding in the months I've been working, so I'm not looking for anyone to validate my position. I wanted to formally acknowledge that I was wrong, to close this particular current, and remain proud, by withdrawing from a fruitless, futile fight with honor and, hopefully, some respect from my "foes". I simply think that, when I was complaining about the secrets and our rights thereto, I should have directed that energy into my magical work, rather than wasting everybody's time complaining and obsessing with things that, if I want to have a real right to, I should pursue initiation into the orders that hold those secrets.
Now, I want to move on "to the Holier Place."
93 93/93
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93, There are many things secret, even which you demand, that is only secret in word. There's much to be found, with the eyes to see, so to say. That said, I feel there is high importance in the teacher-student relationship, as well as having another experienced to tell you of the pitfalls and dangers. Also these people guide us. It is a part of the path. It doesn't seem very ideal to walk it all alone. Too, we are talking about groups that have been doing there practices for around a hundred years or more. Last, and I'll sit down and shut up, is it seems rather lazy to demand it all be laid out before you, rather than going out and seeking and doing all the work you can and should do. Just a thought. There's plenty to be gained in joining an organization. Hell, I did years on my own before signing an Oath. It's more a matter of when you're ready and when you feel you're mature enough to dedicate yourself to that degree of work and integrity required. Make any sense? 9