What is the relationship-OTO initiations and A.'.A.'.
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@KRVB MMShCh said
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@Red Eagle of Death said
"616"...you do realize that 616 is my signature & not a farewell...right?
616"
I knew it was the number of your motto, but I guess I assumed it was a designated farwell too after reading about 616 maybe being the number of the Beast. -
@Jim Eshelman said
"This makes a lot of things make sense!"
Thanks for that thorough reply Jim...I think I have a reasonable foothold on the differences(and similarities) between the Orders.
Let me make sure I am getting it all in order:
The Golden Dawn developed out of Rosicrucianism & A.'.A.'. is the maturation of the same system? How does Freemasonry & the O.T.O. fit into all of this? Did Freemasonry, like Rosicrucianism, develop out of the Templars?
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@Red Eagle of Death said
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I knew it was the number of your motto, but I guess I assumed it was a designated farwell too after reading about 616 maybe being the number of the Beast. "...no worries love
616
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@Red Eagle of Death said
"The Golden Dawn developed out of Rosicrucianism & A.'.A.'. is the maturation of the same system?"
Both correct.
"How does Freemasonry & the O.T.O. fit into all of this? Did Freemasonry, like Rosicrucianism, develop out of the Templars?"
Rosicrucianism may or may not have developed from the Templar tradition. Most hold that it did not, but there are some arguments that it did in some fashion.
Picking up where conventional history allows, though...
The visible Rosicrucian movement and Freemasonry (and Odd Fellows and a number of other things) developed concurrently around 1600 E.V. Each seems to have given something to the other, but otherwise the development was fairly independent. Throughout the 17th Century, it seems evident that a significant set of people were involved.
Freemasonry at the time consisted only of its first two degrees. Rosicrucianism didn't seem to have a degree structure as part of its approach. FM gave to RC the idea of stepped degrees. RC gave to FM the CRC legend from the Fama, which became the basis not so much for the 3° ritual as is usually claimed, but more for the Royal Arch. Throughout much of the 18th Century, there was a competition between the Hiram rite and the Royal Arch as to which would be the third degree on top of the two that they had. Grand Lodge of England eventually formalized the Hiram rite as the 3°, and kept the peace by declaring that "Freemasonry consists of the three Craft Degrees and the Royal Arch."
Rosicrucianism came away with its own traditions but something of a Masonic style. The German "Gold & Rosy Cross" order is possibly the first clear development from this. Freemasonry concurrently came away with an infusion of some RC input, but not (for example) a Tree of Life model or a distinctly RC tale or identification - it continued its own, independent sequence.
Fellowships such as O.T.O. or Aspirants to Light have degrees based on the Masonic model, which is pretty complete within itself. Orders such as Temple of Thelema have degrees based on the Tree of Life and the Rosicrucian traditions.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The visible Rosicrucian movement and Freemasonry (and Odd Fellows and a number of other things) developed concurrently around 1600 E.V. ... Freemasonry at the time consisted only of its first two degrees. Rosicrucianism didn't seem to have a degree structure as part of its approach. FM gave to RC the idea of stepped degrees."
I was wondering when you think the degree structure and the 10 Latin Grade Names came to be formed as Steps of Initiation in Rosicrucianism then? Thanks.
- IPSISSIMVS
- MAGVS
- MAGISTER TEMPLI
- ADEPTVS EXEMPTVS
- ADEPTVS MAIOR
- ADEPTVS MINOR
- PHILOSOPHVS
- PRACTICVS
- THEORICVS
- ZELATOR
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@Wizardiaoan said
"I was wondering when you think the degree structure and the 10 Latin Grade Names came to be formed as Steps of Initiation in Rosicrucianism then?"
Not sure. There's no mention of them in the* Fama* and Confessio. It would seem that this naming came after Rosicrucianism absorbed the degree idea from Freemasonry, which would place it at early 18th Century AFAICT. It would have made sense to them to use the Tree of Life for this purpose, and I think the numbering pattern likely arose from the 13th C. work The Gates of Light.
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I'd like to add something to Jim's comments on the GD vs. the A.'.A.'. which may have caused some confusion, but it is confusion that precedes Jim's comment since Regardie became viewed as THE GD authority through his books. The HGA working was not a part of the GD system and this is the main point that seperates and makes it so hard for one to equivocate the A.'.A.'. and the GD. While Mathers had translated the text the majority of Golden Dawn members considered the working extremely dangerous and a fool's task. Crowley was one of the few who either didn't care or didn't see the danger involved in Mather's version! Regardie's writings, especially his pre-Stella Matutina writings, were still heavily influenced by the Crowley and he wrote these works with the A.'.A.'. system in mind. if you read A Garden of Pomegranates the work of the grades he relates are from the A.'.A.'. and Liber vel Armorum as regards the weapons of the elements. Crowley's interpretations have also become a sort of canon to even Golden Dawn teachings but if you research the source material much of it does not correlate with Crowley's interpretations and ideas. The interp of Adonai as the HGA for one is not a Golden Dawn teaching though there are questions of the Higher Self, though the HGA does not equate with the Higher Self very cleanly at all.
I'd say that the Golden Dawn and A.'.A.'. interpolations stop at 2=9. The rest of the system simply isn't congruent at all as the addition of Yoga states etc transcends the still somewhat quasi-masonic structure of the Golden Dawn system. Still you'd be surprised how many people still think 5=6 of the GD is the same as 5=6 of the A.'.A.'., especially if you just LOOK at the work of the A.'.A.'. and compare it to the GD!
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Freemasonry at the time consisted only of its first two degrees. Rosicrucianism didn't seem to have a degree structure as part of its approach. FM gave to RC the idea of stepped degrees. RC gave to FM the CRC legend from the Fama, which became the basis not so much for the 3° ritual as is usually claimed, but more for the Royal Arch. Throughout much of the 18th Century, there was a competition between the Hiram rite and the Royal Arch as to which would be the third degree on top of the two that they had. Grand Lodge of England eventually formalized the Hiram rite as the 3°, and kept the peace by declaring that "Freemasonry consists of the three Craft Degrees and the Royal Arch.""
Would these "three Craft Degrees and the Royal Arch" happen to be what is known as 'Blue Lodge'? & do they correspond to I° - IV° P.I. of O.T.O.?
Also, somewhere in Bailey's writings the Tibetan is quoted as saying that the Blue Lodge degrees of Freemasonry were specifically designed by the Great White Brotherhood & were intended to be the framework for a new societal structure. What do you guys think about this?
93/93
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@Red Eagle of Death said
"Would these "three Craft Degrees and the Royal Arch" happen to be what is known as 'Blue Lodge'? & do they correspond to I° - IV° P.I. of O.T.O.? "
Blue Lodge of Masonry plus Royal Arch. Yes, this is O.T.O. I-IV (not including P.'.I.'.).
"Also, somewhere in Bailey's writings the Tibetan is quoted as saying that the Blue Lodge degrees of Freemasonry were specifically designed by the Great White Brotherhood & were intended to be the framework for a new societal structure. What do you guys think about this?"
Well, it's what we used in crafting the Aspirants to Light rituals
- Yes, I think there was guidance behind them. -
93 Jim,
Are you speaking of the Royal Arch of today, as it is connected to the York Rite?
I know initially there were only two degrees (Masonry), and then came the 3rd degree, or Master Mason. The Royal Arch is in actuality part of the craft rituals, but one does not generally receive it in Blue Lodge.
One must now go York Right to receive the Royal Arch degree of Masonry which corresponds to the 4th degree O.T.O. (Or actually, the O.T.O. 4th degree is equivalent to the Royal Arch degree in Masonry) This is the beginning point of the Chivalric degrees in Masonry. (Chapter, Counsel and Commandery), unless you are part of the Prince Hall tradition.
There are further degrees beyond the Royal Arch through the York Rite.
But, my understanding in Craft Masonry today, Blue Lodge consists of Entered Apprentice, Fellow craft, and Master Mason. One must be proficient in the symbolic, or Craft degrees (Blue Lodge) before being able to even petition for York, or Scottish Rite. (At least in the Lodge I belong to it Does). Then again, I suppose the Jurisdiction could make a difference as well.The Royal Arch is the completion of the Symbolic Degrees though.
Freemasonry is a very valuable source to me, and it has, is, and will always be the frame work for all societal structures.
Interesting thread:-)
93 93/93.'.
James
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@Shachdar8=3 said
"Are you speaking of the Royal Arch of today, as it is connected to the York Rite?"
The Royal Arch appears in many rites - York, Scottish, etc.; and in England, last I knew, it had semi-independent jurisdiction.
"I know initially there were only two degrees (Masonry), and then came the 3rd degree, or Master Mason. The Royal Arch is in actuality part of the craft rituals, but one does not generally receive it in Blue Lodge."
Yes. The Royal Arch and the current Third are contemporaries. In fact, the Royal Arch almost became the Third instead of the Hiram ritual.
"One must now go York Right to receive the Royal Arch degree of Masonry which corresponds to the 4th degree O.T.O.[/qjuote]
Actually, the O.T.O. ritual was based on the Metropolitan Rite in Britain. It's significantly different from the York version."
That's a term linked to a particular rite. Remember, the H.R.A. originally existed as a stand-alone degree, outside the context of any collateral rites."But, my understanding in Craft Masonry today, Blue Lodge consists of Entered Apprentice, Fellow craft, and Master Mason."
Yes. That distinction is why Grand Lodge of England used the language they used: that Masonry consists of the three Craft degrees and the Royal Arch.
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@Red Eagle of Death said
"Let me make sure I am getting it all in order:
The Golden Dawn developed out of Rosicrucianism & A.'.A.'. is the maturation of the same system? How does Freemasonry & the O.T.O. fit into all of this? Did Freemasonry, like Rosicrucianism, develop out of the Templars?"
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Rosecrucians:
As far as I’m aware, there is no evidence linking the Rosecrucianism that influenced the Golden Dawn back to the people behind the Fama and Confessio. Somewhere in the Equinox Crowley denounces various modern Rosecrucian groups as frauds but he never provides his criteria for authenticity. Even to say “visible Rosecrucian movement” is misleading because it implies an invisible Rosecrucian lineage going back to the people who published Fama and Confessio or earlier to Father Christian Rosenkreuz. As far as I’m aware, there is no such lineage or evidence for it (some would say that's because they are invisible). What you have are various “Rosecrucian” groups that sprang up after the fact, claiming to be the true heirs of the Rosecrucian current. The Fama and Confessio undoubtedly contain initiatic truths, but they could have been written by some 16th century Adept as a playful fiction (maybe he or she was bored) that took on a life of its own thereafter… -
Freemasons:
There is no historical connection between the Freemasons and Rosecrucians simply because the latter never existed. However, some writers have suggested Scottish Freemasonry grew out of the Templars who fled to Scotland and took refuge under Robert the Bruce after Philip le Bel arrested the Templars and destroyed their order. If true, Freemasonry developed out of the remnants of the Templars and similarities can be seen in how both groups are designed to function outside of national, financial and legal constraints. This secular enlightened “universalism” may be traced back to the principle of Baphomet. -
OTO:
The OTO grew out of the Freemasonry/Templar framework. Peter Koenig’s website, for all its anti-OTO bias, is a useful resource on the early history of the OTO. -
Aleister Crowley
The connection between the A.A. and OTO occurs only via the figure of Crowley. In 1904, AC has the Cairo Working and receives Al Legis. In 1907 AC establishes the A.A. system with GCJ out of the ruins of the Golden Dawn. In 1914 AC substantially rewrites the OTO initiations and takes over as OHO in 1922. AC inserts The Book of the Law and Thelema into both the A.A. system and his reworking of the OTO grade initiations.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Well, it's what we used in crafting the Aspirants to Light rituals
"Do the Craft Degrees find their expression in the A.'.A.'. system?
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@Red Eagle of Death said
"Do the Craft Degrees find their expression in the A.'.A.'. system?"
No. The A.'.A.'. grades are Qabalistic (Tree of Life). The Masonic degrees are not.
The Craft Degrees would represent a stage of progress far earlier than even the earliest of the A.'.A.'. grades.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The Craft Degrees would represent a stage of progress far earlier than even the earliest of the A.'.A.'. grades."
I'm just trying to develop a curriculum for myself that would expose me to all of the necessary information. I'm quite new to organized occultism(for lack if a better term) & would like to cover ALL of the basics.
@Jim Eshelman said
"So the A.'.A.'. 1=10 is akin to Second Order (5=6) G.D. in terms of the work actually being done; but the A.'.A.'. 2=9 is the analog in terms of initiation and symbolism."
If I were going to work the Golden Dawn system with the intention of trading off to the A.'.A.'. system at the point which they overlap, would it be best to make that change on account of the symbolism of the Grade or the work being done?
Which Golden Dawn Grade corresponds to 0=0 & 1=10 in A.'.A.'. in terms of work? what about symbolism?
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@Red Eagle of Death said
"If I were going to work the Golden Dawn system with the intention of trading off to the A.'.A.'. system at the point which they overlap, would it be best to make that change on account of the symbolism of the Grade or the work being done? "
My best advice is to work each system in its own terms, not the terms of another system. So, to get the benefit of each, I'd answer No to the above question.
"Which Golden Dawn Grade corresponds to 0=0 & 1=10 in A.'.A.'. in terms of work? what about symbolism?"
None corresponds in symbolism to 0=0 per se. The 1=10 A.'.A.' ceremony is based on the G.D. 0=0 ceremony, so it corresponds to the First Order of the G.D. as a whole.
To make this perhaps clearer: Not all of the grade ceremonies in the G.D. should be called initiations. There are, in fact, only two actual initiations in the G.D. system: One into the First Order (0=0) and one into the Second Order (5=6). The intervening rituals accomplish other things, and are valuable, but shouldn't be put on the same level as these two.
It's these two ceremonies that the A.'.A.'.'s founders used as the baseline for its own initiations. The First Order, or 0=0, ceremony (called Neophyte) became the basis of the A.'.A.'. First Order or 1=10 initiation (called Neophyte). The Second Order, or 5=6, ceremony (called Zelator Adeptus Minor) became the basis of the A.'.A.'. Second Order or 2=9 initiation (called Zelator).
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Is P.I. in O.T.O. analogous to the Royal Arch degree in Freemasonry? or would Royal Arch correspond IV degree of O.T.O.?
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@Red Eagle of Death said
"Is P.I. in O.T.O. analogous to the Royal Arch degree in Freemasonry? or would Royal Arch correspond IV degree of O.T.O.?"
The P.I. is analogous to the Prince of Jerusalem degree in Scottish Rite Freemasonry. The Royal Arch is the IV°.
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@Wizardiaoan said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The visible Rosicrucian movement and Freemasonry (and Odd Fellows and a number of other things) developed concurrently around 1600 E.V. ... Freemasonry at the time consisted only of its first two degrees. Rosicrucianism didn't seem to have a degree structure as part of its approach. FM gave to RC the idea of stepped degrees."I was wondering when you think the degree structure and the 10 Latin Grade Names came to be formed as Steps of Initiation in Rosicrucianism then? Thanks.
- IPSISSIMVS
- MAGVS
- MAGISTER TEMPLI
- ADEPTVS EXEMPTVS
- ADEPTVS MAIOR
- ADEPTVS MINOR
- PHILOSOPHVS
- PRACTICVS
- THEORICVS
- ZELATOR"
This degree structure was and is in use by the SRIA (Society Rosicrucian In Anglica) to which you must be a master mason and a christian to join.
Mathers and the GD founders were high grade officers within SRIA and used the degree structure for the GD which was adopted by Crowley for the AA. -
Yes In Nomine, I know they were adopted by the GD & AA--but my question was if anyone knew when those names and that degree structure originated.
The perfect model for God's creation of the universe is the perfect step ladder for initiation logically, how the creator blew it forward is how we can sail on it back. It also logically is the perfect map to psychological individuation. The Tree of Life is where all religions and psychology can meet. There are other systems, such as the chakras, tetractys, and the alphabets, but they can all also be correlated to the Tree. It seems the dominant model to me.
It is obvious that the Tree of Life historically was innately used as an initiatory step ladder mystically, I was just intrigued when the 10 Latin grades for the Sphere positions popped up, as they reveal a bit about what the nature of the work in that sphere was believed to consist of. Jim guessed early 1700's.
Does anyone know of any good books that provide an overview of ancient initiatory systems and their stages, and perhaps compare their degrees? My guess is that most were 7-fold, based on the planets and/or chakras, but a book compiling them would be intriguing. (I would really like to find a 36-fold one.)
For instance this gives the mithraic ranks (men faint of heart be warned!):