Question on Liber L
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This has been such an interesting thread to me that I was hoping someone would share another post to keep it rolling. I'm going to try to... sorry if everyone else has moved on. True Will just seems like something not worth accepting on faith to me, and I appreciate the different perspectives.
Peregrinus93 said this:
"it is the unmistakable experience of working in concert with one's own nature and the universe."
Which I find very nice, poetic, and romantic. I like it as an idea. But as a practical explanation of reality, my scarecrow brain begs me to question:
- This implies that the universe has a True Will. Which implies a unity, which we might call God. So we're saying if you follow God's will, and your own nature (which I assume from Peregrinus93's comments to be our physical and non-physical (soul???)) you will be following your True Will.
- It will be unmistakable.
I can't believe the Universe has 1 Will.
I can't believe in a non-physical (soul like) quality that we all possess.
I can't believe that "it will be unmistakable" is the measure of success, since I've known the feeling of being absolutely sure of something only to be proved incorrect later.In this debate of True Will it just seems we're assuming sooooo much.
What would it take away from AC's methods to say that we each of us have Wills; why do we have to tie it into something cosmic? What does that get us?
You've told me what you think True Will is. Can it be shown? Can it be proven? Or do you just "know it" and can maybe recognize it in other people in which case we must ultimately take it on FAITH?
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Scarecrow, 93,
"You've told me what you think True Will is. Can it be shown? Can it be proven? Or do you just "know it" and can maybe recognize it in other people in which case we must ultimately take it on FAITH?"
Have you taken this too far? True will is a term that sums up the essence of a person. In saying that, we assume we humans are not here simply to be, but to act.
But you seem to be striving for a metaphysical concept first. In fact, I could switch around some of your phrasing here, and comment that you are asking if God exists.
Keep this on a level in which you can believe. Do you feel you have an individuality? That in some respects you are unique? That there are things you want to achieve that others don't, and which are important to you? If so, then you'll see the idea of True Will isn't some invention of Aleister Crowley's, it's commonsense. Sure, (most) Thelemites extend TW into the metaphysical realm, because they have a metaphysical belief or perspective. But that has to be something that is real to the person, not a borrowed concept that strains one's credulity.
If I take myself as an example, I see TW as a vital means on the road toward the mystical state we call the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. I have very little patience with using Thelema to form political philosophies or indeed, philosophies or any kind. Philosophy, to my mind, is any temporary mental resting place that keeps the intellect reasonably happy and busy while the real work of dissolving fixed ideas about life is done.
Other people here are the opposite - they cannot even stomach the idea of an HGA or a non-physical realm of any kind. For them, philosophy, along with concrete values, is the vital need and the vital goal.
So, such a person and myself have very different True Wills. But insofar as we are both living, conscious expressions of a dynamic universe, there is no inherent conflict in this.
I think you remarked in one post that True Will is a concept unique to Thelema. I disagree. Christians are urged by their scriptures, "To thine own self be true." A Zen Buddhist discovers his/her Original Face. Hindus may see themselves working out their karma on the road to Liberation. A classic Sartrean existentialist would be striving to be authentic. And so on and so on. The difference in Thelema is its recognition of the <b>dynamism</b> of the essential self, especially once it's freed from Old Aeon dogmas and guilt.
Understanding True Will does not mean reaching some inflexible state of unchanging illumination, It's a process, subject to endless revision. If you are ever offered the final, fixed formula for defining True Will, if you follow that you are probably just getting yourself stuck.
93 93/93,
EM
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EM: you make the case, if I'm hearing you right, that TW is a path and not a goal. I love this concept.
In the case of Crowley and Thelemites in general, I've heard it discussed that a person discovers their TW (ie, final results attained).
If I heard more "I'm discovering my TW", as in, I'm on the path, I think I wouldn't get stuck on the label.
Anyway, thanks for the input. Your perspective helps me to see another color from the prism.
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I'll add a post, though I said it way earlier in this thread when replying to Froclown. If this helps, TW is something that is discovered. You have to ATTAIN it. You may feel hints of it, or, as I've heard, when you find it, it isn't a surprise as much as an affirmation. But importantly, it is a path. You're on the path to find your TW. (This should already separate it from instinct and nature, although Crowley praised them I think he wasn't calling them TW, yet embracing them as part of the path to discovering your TW). Then when you discover your TW you are on another path, doing your TW. The concept of paths shouldn't be that much of a revelation if you are familiar with the Qabalah and Tarot.
It also may help to look at what isn't TW. Crowley was quite clear, as well as my own personal experience, that when you go against your TW (even if you do not know it yet) those actions will cause you pain. Immediate or later. One example could be a bad relationship. Your "heart may not be in it" (not doing you TW) but you stay in it anyway and relationship problems become worse and worse and you find yourself engaging in other activities to get away from it, but these may not be TW either and the situation is made even worse. So if you know what feels wrong (against your TW) you may over time (on the path) be able to sum these up and know what your TW isn't and perhaps through this, take a huge step toward discovering your TW. You could use the example of being a vegan yet taking a job in cow slaughter house. There's a definite "not doing your TW." This would cause the individual pain, morally and otherwise.
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93,
I would like to add a yes, yes, and yes to pretty much everything Edward Mason (or, as I like to call him, "E to the M") just said. I will also add a few thoughts of my own.
I think it's unconscionably arrogant and indefensible to assert that Crowley and TBOTL are correct, while every other mystic philosopher and his/her accompanying path is wrong. I don't even think Crowley was the first to realize that different people have different paths - even the Buddha is remembered as saying that he could not teach the path to enlightenment, he could only teach his path and it was up to others to see whether or not it worked.
While I would never argue that every religion is at its core the same, I do believe that if you limit your search to mystic thinkers and mystic means of attainment there is a surprising degree of conformity. In the end, I think it's different people looking at different parts of the same elephant. The knowledge and conversation of my HGA and the knowledge and conversation of yours may be so different that we barely recognize them as the same experience. How much different must it be to encapsulate such a subjective moment in a way people in the West will understand, to the way people in the East will understand?
This is why, although I enjoy dreaming up Thelemic social systems as much as the next guy, deep down I think we all might benefit from a little less day-dreaming and a little more half-lotus (or full lotus, if that's your bag). I think to come at Thelema and try to use it as a means to master the external world is putting the cart before the horse. Use it to master yourself, and the rest will fall into place, or the rest won't fall into place, but what the f@ck will you care, you're already where you want to be, doing what you want to be doing.
For me, the problem with saying the universe has one Will is the word "Will." To be perfectly frank, I don't care much for the word Will, and much prefer the term "Way," to borrow from the Taoists. I also believe the two concepts are entirely analogous in the broader definitions, although I recognize there is no absolute consensus even among Taoist philosophers as to the Way's essential nature.
While it seems perfectly reasonable to argue that the universe does not have a Will, it seems impossible to me to argue that the universe does not have a way. Even if one asserts that the universe is completely random, this is still a way - randomness - that the universe exists, or doesn't exist, depending.
This is why, for me, someone who makes no claims to having discovered his True Will, the experience cannot possibly be "Oh, that's why I've been so unhappy; I'm supposed to have been living in Budapest for the past 5 years." Rather, I expect it will come as something far less concrete, far less amenable to definition, or even understanding.
Now if anyone needs me I'll be reviewing the vocabulary for my finals next week, which I have, for some reason, decided is more important that the half-lotus I mentioned a few paragraphs up. Certainly I am not meant for greatness.
Love=Law
- C
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93,
Do you have to 'attain' the true will or is it a realization or pulling back of the layers of the mind? Do you have to believe in 'free will' to believe in true will (Crowley and Hymenaeus Beta certainly think not)? Why shoudl we distinguish animal and plant 'instincts' from human (I think we shouldnt). Stars 'shine,' Humans 'go.' Whether you are mired in the delusion of ignorance and therefore suffer from the changing circumstances of life or whether you dont or whether you find an occupation you like or whether you dont - does that alter Will at all?
"Our minds and bodies are veils of the Light within. The uninitiate is a "Dark Star", and the Great Work for him is to make his veils transparent by 'purifying' them. This 'purification' is really 'simplification'; it is not that the veil is dirty, but that the complexity of its folds makes it opaque. The Great Work therefore consists principally in the solution of complexes. Everything in itself is perfect, but when things are muddled, they become 'evil'." - The Law is for All, I:8
I find it funny that There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt but everyone has their own idea of what Will is in the first place...
NarrowFellow: you seem to be confusing Will as a metaphysical principle (like Schopenhauer's Will-to-Life and Nietzsche's Will-to-Power) with the notion of willpower or volition. I would say teh universe certainly doesnt have volition but it certainly has a Will... IS Will. I see Will and Way/Tao as essentially coterminous (as does Crowley). "It should be clear from the foregoing that the Law of Thelema "Do what thou wilt" must be a logical rule of conduct to anyone who accepts the above premises... That the task is endless is no detriment to this process, but makes it all the more interesting. It is the way of the tao. Finality would cloy." -"On Thelema" by A.C.
IAO131
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93,
ThatNarrowFellow wrote:
"Edward Mason (or, as I like to call him, "E to the M")"
Not sure I get the reference here, other than some altered version of E-MC squared.
I'm just curious.
93 93/93,
EM
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*Crowley was the first Thelemite. I think that is often overlooked. *
Actually, Rabelais was the first Thelemite in spirit since he coined the term Thelemite, but in practice, the Monks of Medmenham, A.K.A. The Hellfire Club were probably the first practicing Thelemites.
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93,
The Hellfire Club(s) - there were apparently several - consisted of a bunch of rich guys getting drunk and laid. They did, it seems, believe in stamping down the wretched and the weak, but not much beyond that and their own enjoyment.
Rabelais' status is arguable, since he did offer a laissez-faire philosophy. But I think he fell halfway between Thelema as presented by Crowley and expanded by others since, and the 18th Century rakes in the Hellfire Club. I'd give him honorary status, mostly for having coined several notions and phrases that Aiwass was able to appropriate as part of the conceptual framework in the Book of the Law.
93 93/93,
EM -
@Edward Mason said
"93,
ThatNarrowFellow wrote:
"Edward Mason (or, as I like to call him, "E to the M")"
Not sure I get the reference here, other than some altered version of E-MC squared.
I'm just curious.
93 93/93,
EM"
93,
No need to be curious, just a joke.
Aum: You're right, and I think this is why I prefer the word "Way." Even though intellectually I understand that there is the will of volition and the metaphysical concept of Will and that they are different (just look at their initial letters) in terms of understanding where the lower will of my animal desires ends and the higher Will of my Higher Self (to choose one of many insufficient terms) is something that still escapes me.
I also think that because of language, and the way in which language informs thought, no matter how clear I think I am on the different uses of this English word "(W)will," I still catch myself falling into confusion. The fact is, the word "will" implies a certain conception of what we're striving for, and on days when I feel particularly clear-headed it seems like a wonderful vision and I attain to it, but on days when I am more muddled I find it helps for me to go back to "Way" as a means to encapsulate what I am striving for, because it is easier to sort out, and clearer in definition. I'm not likely to mistake the path to the subway as my individually-expressed "Way," or "Dao," as it were.
Love=Law
- C
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I like the concept mentioned before as the TW being a Way, a continuous and never-ending road.
I'm not sure this is what Crowley meant. He seemed to mean it as an ending. Something you can attain. (I'm not sure if you can actually attain a path, after thinking about that metaphor, since it could be argued one is ALWAYS on a path, and all of us are Gods in the midst of Going).
I also disagree strongly with the concept that:
"when you go against your TW (even if you do not know it yet) those actions will cause you pain. "
I'm sure following people's TW (whatever that is) has caused much pain, morally and otherwise.
I'd like to ask a new, but similar question of the group:
How does True Will differ from Destiny in your interpretation of the concept.
One thought I immediatly had on the subject was that destiny as it's normally understood cannot be circumvented... you are always following your destiny (or maybe I'm misguided on this subject too)... but it seems as many people have explained TW, you can NOT be following your TW.
Thoughts?
Also I've liked the different posts about Crowley and "being a thelemite"... in another thread it was posted that one could seperate the prophet Crowley from the person. I wonder if people consider Crowley the person as a prime example of a thelemite. If not why?
Thanks again folks - you all rock and so do your posts!
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Scarecrow, 93,
"I'm not sure this is what Crowley meant. He seemed to mean it as an ending. Something you can attain."
I don't have the entire corpus of Crowley's writings memorized, but my understanding of him is that we attain or grasp the <i>formula</i> of the True Will. Then we spend the rest of our lives coming to terms with what it actually means in the context of the incarnation each of us inhabits.
"How does True Will differ from Destiny in your interpretation of the concept.
One thought I immediatly had on the subject was that destiny as it's normally understood cannot be circumvented... you are always following your destiny (or maybe I'm misguided on this subject too)... but it seems as many people have explained TW, you can NOT be following your TW."True Will defines or encompasses or encapsulates the whole of what our actual living is about. We can't simply 'figure it out'. Reason is the power we bring in at the review stage. Our lives are about fear, awe, love, mystery, joy, absurdity, hilarity, disappointment, creativity, fulfilment and so on. The term True Will refers to the essential spark that's behind our <i>living</i> all that. A fully realized being, living according to True Will, finds "ecstacy in every phenomenon," including all the above, and not just the parts of living that are outwardly fulfilling, or fit some conventional notion of success.
There is a resemblance between destiny and True Will. Both these ideas contain a sense of something far grander and more mysterious, more <b>vital</b>, than any mere <i>concept</i> we can have about being alive. But the term 'destiny' is used to describe that which is imposed on us or pre-designed for us. By opting for 'True Will,' Crowley made sure we see that we ourselves are the actors: not victims or mere recipients of grace.
The only remaining assignment is to discover Who/What is writing the script. The "Only the physical plane can exist" faction bore me stupid - not because I think they're 'wrong' exactly, but because they usually insist on putting a whole series of restrictions on the possibilities inherent in existence. Almost all of them claim we can define existence in terms of consciously perceived and definable terms. I've yet to meet anyone who, in honest moments, finds life fits that rule. The scriptwriter/director of our individual existences is <i>always</i> going to be found to be a half-dozen steps beyond the last life-conception we came up with, or the latest realization we've had about our 'real' selves.
Whether we see that as the HGA, 'God', or some similar term strikes me as a purely personal call. But once someone reaches the point where he/she sees his/her own life as a discrete whole with some kind of pattern, or theme, or common set of tendencies and outcomes, then intellect can be brought in to assess the situation. As noted above, I don't think we 'figure out' what the True Will is - it is an understanding that is revealed, or sneaks in through the back routes of consciousness. Intellect is then needed to apply that intuitive revelation or understanding to the different parts of our lives.
Doing all that (I hope and believe, anyway) leads eventually to the realization of the K&C of the HGA. That condition of consciousness seems to include something very close to a grasp of our 'destiny' since its effect is one of "lightening the girders of the soul" and then we get to see what the wider picture is about. Simply trying to figure out all the 'big' answers, though, is just going to produce a lot of mental noise: and I think it probably leads us further from our goal, not closer.
The various outcomes of doing that would resemble the pain caused by not following the True Will that - you said - you can't agree with. Such pain is often closer to Buddhist notions of *dukkha *(suffering, dissatisfaction) than conventional anguish. But it would include the perception and exprience of things like absurdity, cruelty, and hopelessness. These things come, and plentifully, but they are "but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains."
93 93/93,
EM
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Froclown, 93,
True Will is unique to each monad. None of us, as I understand it, can change that - rather, it is the mundane aspects in each of us that need to be changed to conform to that uniqueness.
But we have considerable choice on the level of society and the other aspects of the physical plane. We have all of Nuit in which to learn to play. And I can't understand how *you *can't see that.
93 93/93,
EM
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Ideally a fish has the whole world to explore as well, but in practice fish are suited to be in the water. Each specific type of fish is suited best only to be in water with a specific salt contend, temperature, and only in relation to those other beings on which its digestion is fitted my nature to nourish its specific biology, and also only in relation to such predators as will work to keep the species in check but not devour the whole school to extinction.
Ideally a tree sloth has the whole rain forest to explore, but as an expression of its Will, it stays in the branches moving a mere few feet a day.
A dog can be left to its own devices, and it will eat things that are unclean, it gets into fights it can't win, messes with bees, chases cars, rolls in mud, gets rashes and diseases, etc.
But the same dog may be domesticated, put in a safe and clean environment, given special food that is nourishing, and have poisons removed from its diet.
Thus the animal in its proper environment is happy, healthier, and more able to express its potential. The animal which is places into a controlled Environment where its specific needs are discerned by science and met by technology, is happier and healthier than even an animal placed into its place designed by nature.
Mans science can do far better than the bind forces of nature, especially for suiting a physical and social environment where each type of man can grow and prosper according to its natural niche or WILL.
Also I can find example of Crowely supporting Aristocratic ideal, social castes, of him judging individual by class, gender, race, nationality, etc, and where he speaks directly against democracy and popular rule, calling for a select fow elite rulers to govern the moron masses of humanity.
I do not however see him calling for democracy, egalitarianism, or any form of liberal-anarchism.
If you have any such quotes I would like to read them -
Froclown, 93,
You and I are talking about different ideas. We aren't having a conversation at all.
Nor are we likely to have one.
93 93/93,
EM
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@Froclown said
"I don't see how you don't see why Feudal systems are Thelemic.
A caste is an orbit, a specialized role or path.
So we have a star in every orbit, and we try to make sure we have an orbit open to every star."
93,
I think the reason not everyone is jumping onto your Feudal System bandwagon, Froclown, is that there are at least two fundamental disagreements at work.
1 - What is and is not "Thelemic." You claim that this type of government is clearly "Thelemic," yet there is no kind of agreement on what the term "Thelemic" means, or what it encompasses, much less the issue of what is or is not "Thelemic." Further, I doubt that this forum, or any forum of modern Thelemites would be able to come to a consensus on this issue.
For example, months ago on Lashtal this very issue of "Thelemic Government" came up. To give just two pespectives, as I recall Erwin argued that a Thelemic Government's function would be to prevent people from doing anything other than their True Will, while Aum 418 asserted that Thelemic Government was more akin to Libertarianism. (Forgive me if I misquote anyone).
2 - There is a fundamental disagreement about the nature of Free Will, which Scarecrow has valiantly attempted to clear up. You seem to be saying that the True Will of people is akin to that of fish, dogs, and other animals. Many of us disagree.
While I can't speak for others, I can speak briefly about why I disagree.
According to various personality tests I have participated in over the years, my personality is categorized as INFP, or "The Healer," as Keirsey terms it. Now this dictates certain career choices that would seem suitable to me - IE Teacher, Therapist, Writer - and some that seem unsuitable - IE Soldier, Litigator, even Chef (not sure why). Now assume for a moment that these tests are 99% accurate. It seems perfectly reasonable to give them to children, and then sort those children into different schools in order to cultivate their unique talents. I wish someone had done it to me when I was a kid so I could have spent more time studying T. S. Eliot and less time flunking out of Pre-Calculus.
It seems to me that you're saying that this is it, great, now we have a Thelemic Society. But even though my personality may be an element of my True Will, it is not the totality of it, and it cannot be so easily categorizied. You may be able to predict and categorize someone's personality, but I do not think you will ever be able to easily categorize someone's True Will. Crowley expressed his own True Will as "To teach the next step." The beauty of such a statement is that it is almost infinitely applicable, because the step is always changing. What caste would you put Crowley into? I dare say he would have made an awful professor.
I just think that while it's a nice idea, a feudal caste system is far too restrictive to accommodate the True Wills of such a government's citizens, and would inevitably collapse under the weight of the conflict between caste and True Will.
I know you will argue that the Will can be objectively determined and we've already been over that, but perhaps now you understand why we do not agree?
Love=Law
- C
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Thelemic means that in the order of nature everything has a place and a purpose, and making sure that each think is perfectly placed and free to act within it's place without being forced out of its orbit.
as for Crowely, if we work with the Gorean system, he would something of a white caste, the preists and clergy who mediate between the giant insectoid masters of the planet and the gorean people.
Thelemically He would be in the grade of the hermit, atleast that was his attainment.
He was best classed an an aristocrate a wizard like merlyn, and would have done well to have worked along political power, as an occult adviser.
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"Thelemic means that in the order of nature everything has a place and a purpose, and making sure that each think is perfectly placed and free to act within it's place without being forced out of its orbit."
It's interesting to me that I've often pondered Crowley's words on each star having it's place and orbit in the universe to be quite similar to the Albert Einstein often misquoted (by myself) bit about the universe and dice:
"Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the 'old one'. I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice. "
But then the limey bastard (AC) goes and makes Chaos his Chokmah...and a figure in his pantheon...
Makes me wonder.
Also makes me think of the 2 POVs shown in such places as the Discordian religon (ANERISTIC vs ERISTIC) or in the philosophies of Caterine Vauban vs the Jaffes in I Hear the Huckabees...
It appears to me Froclown that you are equating Thelemic with a clockwork conception of the universe... I don't know if I buy that AC had this similar view... his starsponge vision seems to me a romantic, chaotic, vision of an artist and not a scientists... but that's probably me filtering it through my own POV.
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Each cell in the body is its awn unique cell, even i it has the same DNA' it is still a different cell from its parent cell.
That being the case however, we do know that the body has several different types of cells, where lots of individual cells can be grouped together by type. We know that the cardiac cells function in the heart to produce smooth muscle tissues, and that a cardiac cell is different than a lung cell or a red blood cell. We know that the Cardiac cell requires different nutrients, a different environment and a has a whole different life style and WILL than a red blood cell. Just because we can not plot the exact course of the life of each cell taken as an individual does not mean, we can not discern what TYPE of cell each individual is, and Invoke the nutrients that it requires, and promote the practices than benefit those types of tissues etc. While also banishing from those cell environments those elements which are harmful or toxic to those cells.
The problem as I see it, is that you admit that each human is unique, but you will not admit that their are differences between races, sexes, heredity. breeding, social class, and chance development that create classes of people, some BETTER than others in various was, and a select few better than the whole species, it is to these select few, That Thelema is most dedicated, to the breeding, nurturing, and selecting of these Few Geniuses, and to the proper placement of the lesser men in orbits around these Geniuses or "Christs" granting these elite few the control of the culture and the tools they need to advance the Race which they represent.
Each advancing its own race, advanced the progress of all mankind, the Great work, to which each member of the A.'.A.'. is supposedly taken an Oath to work towards.