Connection between Atus XIV & XVIII?

Asraiya

93

Attempting to investigate this thread to see if any of my random foolish wisdom might be expressed but instead I got totally confused- there's too many references to the Moon being planet, card, sephiroth, Hebrew, and path... But then looking at graphics I have of the tree a few have completely different placements of the tarot along the paths! One has the Sun (tarot) on Gimel?

Can anyone refer me to a good graphic online that's correct for our system with readable text of both the cards and Hebrew please?

Asraiya

93 again..

I do see the solar/lunar similarities in XIV and XVIII but it's my understanding in Art it's a cauldron not a chalice or graal. Not that this should discourage you by any means to find significance for your own use...

Frater SOL

@Asraiya said

"Can anyone refer me to a good graphic online that's correct for our system with readable text of both the cards and Hebrew please?"

93 Asraiya,

www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Tree_of_Life

616

Frater SOL

@Asraiya said

"93 again..

I do see the solar/lunar similarities in XIV and XVIII but it's my understanding in Art it's a cauldron not a chalice or graal."

but their symbolism is the same - whether it is a cauldron filled with the Blood of the Lion & the Tears of the Eagle or a Chalice supporting the Sun & Moon - they both represent(again, assuming it is even there) the Alchemical Mass of the Holy Ghost.

616

Asraiya

93

I disagree, not that there's necessarily a wrong or right, but I believe the cup (feminine) refers to the 2 sexual fluids combined being the essence of creation into form as substantial matter from two half's (X & Y chromosomes more or less). In the cauldron is added equal opposites returning this matter to its original primal essence or energy (think force, fire, or light, masculine) thus negating itself said best in Liber vel Legis as "unite by thine art so that all disappear."

These give us the 2 requirements for life as we know it 1.) a physical body- yin 2.) the spirit, soul, or anima- yang. It also can be compared to Heaven (cauldron/ fire) and Earth (cup/ water)

Lapis

but the Cauldron of Art is the Golden Graal of Our Lady:

""It is in alchemy the process of distillation, operated by internal ferment, and the influence of the Sun and Moon." - A.C., Book of Thoth, comment on Atu XI"

""This state of the great Work therefore consisted in the mingling of the contradictory elements in a cauldron. This is here represented as golden..." - comment on Atu XIV"

L.Lazuli

Lapis

""nine drops of impure blood, drop-shaped like Yods, fall[...]from the Moon.""

The blood represented here is of course the scarlet blood of the moon, but it is being communicated through the use of a male symbol - for the Yod is the sperm.
This is representing a feminine idea with a masculin symbol - just as the Golden Chalice.

L.Lazuli

Frater SOL

In chapter 18 (the chapter corresponding to Atu XVIII) of The Book of Lies, entitled Dewdrops, Crowley makes an incredibly clear reference to the esoteric implications of Atu XVIII.

In the silence of a dewdrop is every tendency of his
soul, and of his mind, and of his body; it is the
Quintessence and the Elixir of his being. Therein
are the forces that made him and his father and his
father's father before him.
This is the Dew of Immortality.
Let this go free, even as It will; thou art not its
master, but the vehicle of It.

It is evident from this excerpt that Crowley intended Atu XVIII to be synonymous with Amrita, & therefore comparable to Atu XIV.

Ankh

93,

"Quote Arsihsis: In working with the Path of Qoph I noticed, during a meditation on The Moon card, that between the towers there could be seen a vague chalice supporting an interlocking solis/lunae. If this is not all projection & the image is actually there then does this imply a connection with Atu XIV? "

I would say yes, there is a connection. Atu XIV ART (Sagittarius) & Atu XVIII The Moon (Pisces) are both ruled by Atu X The Wheel of Fortune (Jupiter).

JNV33

@Ankh said

"93,

"Quote Arsihsis: In working with the Path of Qoph I noticed, during a meditation on The Moon card, that between the towers there could be seen a vague chalice supporting an interlocking solis/lunae. If this is not all projection & the image is actually there then does this imply a connection with Atu XIV? "

I would say yes, there is a connection. Atu XIV ART (Sagittarius) & Atu XVIII The Moon (Pisces) are both ruled by Atu X The Wheel of Fortune (Jupiter)."

Is it fair to say a card is ruled by another card based on astrological correspondences?

Aum418

@JNV33 said

"
@Ankh said
"93,

"Quote Arsihsis: In working with the Path of Qoph I noticed, during a meditation on The Moon card, that between the towers there could be seen a vague chalice supporting an interlocking solis/lunae. If this is not all projection & the image is actually there then does this imply a connection with Atu XIV? "

I would say yes, there is a connection. Atu XIV ART (Sagittarius) & Atu XVIII The Moon (Pisces) are both ruled by Atu X The Wheel of Fortune (Jupiter)."

Is it fair to say a card is ruled by another card based on astrological correspondences?"

I certainly don't think so, and the connections are quite spurious...

IAO131

Jim Eshelman

@JNV33 said

"Is it fair to say a card is ruled by another card based on astrological correspondences?"

There might be better language to use to express this but, yes, the underlying idea is at least correct.

The problem is the word "rule." Even in astrology it doesn't mean "dominion" but, rather, similarity of nature. That is, when we say astrologically that "Jupiter rules Sagittarius," this is jargon for "Sagittarius has a nature substantially the same as the nature of Jupiter."

Now, in Tarot we could stretch out the words and say, "Atus XVIII and XIV correspond to principles which, in turn, are 'ruled' by the principle corresponding to Atu X." More words probably make it technically more correct in this case but, at root, the original idea is correct. And if we take the practical astrological definition of "rule" as meaning "expresses the root nature which is substantially reflected in [something else]," then actually the original simple phrase used here is on target.

Ankh

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

JAE wrote:

"There might be better language to use to express this but, yes, the underlying idea is at least correct.

The problem is the word "rule." Even in astrology it doesn't mean "dominion" but, rather, similarity of nature. That is, when we say astrologically that "Jupiter rules Sagittarius," this is jargon for "Sagittarius has a nature substantially the same as the nature of Jupiter."

Now, in Tarot we could stretch out the words and say, "Atus XVIII and XIV correspond to principles which, in turn, are 'ruled' by the principle corresponding to Atu X." More words probably make it technically more correct in this case but, at root, the original idea is correct. And if we take the practical astrological definition of "rule" as meaning "expresses the root nature which is substantially reflected in [something else]," then actually the original simple phrase used here is on target."

You are gifted Jim. Before you posted, I was tripping over a definition for the word rule. Now, if rule means similarity of nature, could you comment on the word Exalted

Also, here is a list from my note book on planetary magick, I included it in case any one wanted to discuss it on the forum.

Atu XXI The Universe: Saturn.
Rules: Atu XV The Devil: Capricorn & Atu XVII The Star: Aquarius.
Exalted: Atu VIII Adjustment: Libra.

Atu XVI The Tower: Mars.
Rules: Atu IV The Emperor: Aries & Atu XIII Death: Scorpio.
Exalted: Atu XV The Devil: Capricorn

Atu X Fortune: Jupiter.
Rules: Atu XIV Art: Sagittarius & Atu XVIII The Moon: Pisces
Exalted: Atu VII The Chariot: Cancer

Atu XIX The Sun: Sun.
Rules: Atu XI Lust: Leo.
Exalted: Atu IV The Emperor: Aires.

Atu III The Empress: Venus.
Rules: Atu V The Hierophant: Taurus & Atu VIII Adjustment: Libra.
Exalted: Atu XVIII The Moon: Pisces

Atu II The Priestess: Moon.
Rules: Atu VII The Chariot: Cancer.
Exalted: Atu V The Hierophant: Taurus.

Atu I The Magus: Mercury.
Rules: Atu VI The Lovers: Gemini.
Exalted: Atu IX The Hermit

Jim Eshelman

@Ankh said

"You are gifted Jim. Before you posted, I was tripping over a definition for the word rule. Now, if rule means similarity of nature, could you comment on the word Exalted "

It depends on whether you are (1) using the term in astrology per se, or (2) using astrological language in some other area of occultism.

In astrology, Exalted really means nothing different that Ruling. That is, the fundamental nature of a sign most resembles the natures of the ruling and exalted planets of that sign (Cancer is most like Moon and Jupiter), and least resembles the ruling and exalted planets of the opposite sign (Cancer is least like Saturn and Mars). The reasons for the two sets of language form at least as early as Ptolemy is that the two lists were evolved from two different historic channels.

But in other areas of occultism - especially alchemy, and to a somewhat lesser extent in Qabalah - "exalted" means "at its highest and most excellent perfection." I emphasize that this is a non-astrological use of astrologiocal language - but it's the framework within which much alchemical etc. articulation was originally framed.

Ankh

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

Thank you for the response Jim,

"Quote JAE: It depends on whether you are (1) using the term in astrology per se, or (2) using astrological language in some other area of occultism. "

That would be number 2: Using astrological language in some other area of occultism.

"Quote JAE: But in other areas of occultism - especially alchemy, and to a somewhat lesser extent in Qabalah - "exalted" means "at its highest and most excellent perfection." I emphasize that this is a non-astrological use of astrological language - but it's the framework within which much alchemical etc. articulation was originally framed."

The bold letters are duly noted. I also appreciated the historical reference to Ptolemy. Is this correct? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy
Also, just to make sure I am clear on this. Was I incorrect to say Planetary Magick instead Inner Alchemy?

Jim Eshelman

@Ankh said

"I also appreciated the historical reference to Ptolemy. Is this correct? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy "

That's the dude.

"Also, just to make sure I am clear on this. Was I incorrect to say Planetary Magick instead Inner Alchemy?"

I don't know that it matters. It depends on what you actually meant.

Ankh

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law,

"Quote Ankh:
Also, just to make sure I am clear on this. Was I incorrect to say Planetary Magick instead Inner Alchemy?
Quote JAE:
I don't know that it matters. It depends on what you actually meant."
Briefly, what I meant is this: I use the middle pillar ritual in conjunction with Tarot symbolism. As an example: I banish with the LBRP, vibrate the MP, chant the divine names of a Sephiroth, while focusing on the astrological attributions of the Atu's.
Here is an example of Tiphareth: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile-l.gif" alt=":L)" title="Smile-L" />
Chant Yhvh eloah v'daath: Raphael: Melaechim: Shemesh. While focusing intently on Atu XIX The Sun: Atu XI Lust Leo and Atu IV The Emperor: Aires.

Ankh

93 Aum418,

"Quote Aum418:I certainly don't think so, and the connections are quite spurious... "
Here is an article by Dr. Paul Clark, Steward of the Fraternity of the Hidden Light. I was hoping to write some thing for the forum about the initiated use of the Tarot, but... I really don't have the time at the momnet, This article is the very best out there and everyone here desrve the best. Enjoy. www.lvx.org/Archive/tarot.htm
Btw, Love your posts.

Aum418

@Ankh said

"93 Aum418,

"Quote Aum418:I certainly don't think so, and the connections are quite spurious... "
Here is an article by Dr. Paul Clark, Steward of the Fraternity of the Hidden Light. I was hoping to write some thing for the forum about the initiated use of the Tarot, but... I really don't have the time at the momnet, This article is the very best out there and everyone here desrve the best. Enjoy. www.lvx.org/Archive/tarot.htm
Btw, Love your posts. "

93,

Thanks for the article.

What I meant is that you can connect anything with anything in Qabalah & Tarot and at that point the connections become rather meaningless (except in showing that all things are connected to each other, of course). Finding the immediate connections is where the real information is at, I think, instead of performing 6 degrees of separation with whatever we want to connect.

IAO131

Frater SOL

I found the following quote in The Cry of the 27th Æthyr (the Æthyr which corresponds to Atu XVIII) from The Vision & the Voice. It directly relates Atu XVIII to the Graal:
there is a cauldron boiling in front of her[...]and in the cauldron is the Rose, the Rose of 49 petals, seething in it. Over the cauldron she[Luna]* has arched her rainbow wings; and her face is bent over the cauldron, and she is blowing opalescent silvery rings on to the Rose*[...]She points downward to the cauldron; and now in it there is the head of a most cruel dragon, black and corrupted[...]And now the dragon rises out of the cauldron, very long and slim (like Japanese Dragons, but infinitely more terrible), and he blots out the whole sphere of the stone.

729