Zelator question A.'. A.'.
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@Persephone said
"Greetings,
Is there any truth to the idea that at the Zelator level, he or she is thrown out of the nest so to speak, by the Practicus? Or at least, that the Zelator is expected to work on his own?
LVX, Persephone"AA work is almost entirely solitary work. From Probationer through Ipsissimus. Be more specific.
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@Persephone said
"Is there any truth to the idea that at the Zelator level, he or she is thrown out of the nest so to speak, by the Practicus? Or at least, that the Zelator is expected to work on his own?"
Those are two very different questions. To the first I would answer no, and to the second, yes.
One passage in the Task of the Grade for Zelator - the clause that describes the form of obedience - reads, "Beside all this, he shall apply himself to work for the A.'.A.'. upon his own responsibility." And yes, a certain amount of distinctive independence likely will have (and should have) developed by this point.
On the other hand, there is no "throwing out of the nest." That runs contrary to the whole nature of the system. The Probationer is "left sitting out there" much more than the Zelator!
This sounds like the kind of distortion that would have come from Motta, though I'm sure I never read it from him - it just has the same kind of tone of several other things he misunderstood or distorted.
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@Shunyata said
"AA work is almost entirely solitary work. From Probationer through Ipsissimus. Be more specific."
Thanks Shunyata. I meant guidance and advice though letters, not in person.
LVX, Persephone -
@RifRaf said
"Which lineage, if you don't mind me asking? There are plenty who can be fairly deceptive. Some people have problems getting through, others of us do not.
"I'd also like to say to those of you who may be looking to be admitted, I suggest that you ask some questions before taking Oaths and do not accept bullying or threats."
Asking questions is common sense, if one doesn't do that and jumps in blindly than they're not ready to do the work, plain and simple.
It may be for whatever "School" or "Order" you joined (or attempted to join), but this does not pertain to the actual A.'.A.'. system as Crowley created. I find it impudent and improper [to say something like this, based purely on your circumstances and opinions. The groups I have worked with go above and beyond to be helpful without antagonizing others. If it is your Will to work the system, so be it, otherwise no one else has any reason to tell you what to do, especially to take an Oath."I wish you luck and am glad you are happy with your Path. Anythiong else I could add you would consider impudent. Some things never change.
LVX Persephone -
@Jim Eshelman said
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@Persephone said
"Is there any truth to the idea that at the Zelator level, he or she is thrown out of the nest so to speak, by the Practicus? Or at least, that the Zelator is expected to work on his own?"Those are two very different questions. To the first I would answer no, and to the second, yes.
One passage in the Task of the Grade for Zelator - the clause that describes the form of obedience - reads, "Beside all this, he shall apply himself to work for the A.'.A.'. upon his own responsibility." And yes, a certain amount of distinctive independence likely will have (and should have) developed by this point.
On the other hand, there is no "throwing out of the nest." That runs contrary to the whole nature of the system. The Probationer is "left sitting out there" much more than the Zelator!
This sounds like the kind of distortion that would have come from Motta, though I'm sure I never read it from him - it just has the same kind of tone of several other things he misunderstood or distorted."Thanks for answering, Jim. Its hard to be specific about my own experience on a public board. Yes, it was the Motta lineage and I guess there are alot of us in the same boat. I was wondering if undue harshness or insults were ever used on purpose to push someone away at some point in their training. But now I see that is not the case.
In your book you talk about the Neophyte and Zelator initiation rituals. This lineage does not do them in person. I was sent documents to do alone and the initiation was astral. Does this make them invalid?
This brings up the question of whether a person can establish links on their own or thru any person who believes himself to be an A.'. A.'. teacher. This has been debated for years and it will continue.
Would it be possible to write to you or someone else either via email or snail mail concering the specifics of how I left that Order?
Also, there are other issues I'll try to post about in a general way in other forums.
Thanks again,
LVX, Persephone -
@Persephone said
"In your book you talk about the Neophyte and Zelator initiation rituals. This lineage does not do them in person. I was sent documents to do alone and the initiation was astral. Does this make them invalid? "
On the question of "astral initiations," I like to answer that we, also, do astral initiations, except that the person has to be physically present
There are examples in history where Crowley (for example) sent someone these rituals when they were too far removed geographically for anything else. The member would make whatever use of them was possible. This is non-ideal but not fatal. That is, it is the work itself which admits one to the next grade; but, on the other hand, the ceremonies do contribute important additional things that get lost this way.
"Would it be possible to write to you or someone else either via email or snail mail concering the specifics of how I left that Order? "
As you cited previously, the time needed for such correspondence is the issue, and is a rare commodity, and at best we could provide is opinion. We do take seriously the "only once" conditon of the Probationer admission. - But, within all that, if you seriously need some assistance we can provide, we'll try to find a way to do so.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"On the question of "astral initiations," I like to answer that we, also, do astral initiations, except that the person has to be physically present
Thank you, this makes alot of sense-:)
There are examples in history where Crowley (for example) sent someone these rituals when they were too far removed geographically for anything else. The member would make whatever use of them was possible. This is non-ideal but not fatal. That is, it is the work itself which admits one to the next grade; but, on the other hand, the ceremonies do contribute important additional things that get lost this way.
Okay, this makes me feel a little better about my situation.
"Would it be possible to write to you or someone else either via email or snail mail concering the specifics of how I left that Order? "
As you cited previously, the time needed for such correspondence is the issue, and is a rare commodity, and at best we could provide is opinion. We do take seriously the "only once" conditon of the Probationer admission. - But, within all that, if you seriously need some assistance we can provide, we'll try to find a way to do so."
Awhile ago I wrote to the Cancellarius email link and the mail came back as undeliverable. From what I read on this board it sounds like there are tons of unread emails that need to be answered when time allows. If a letter would be the best route then I will send one to the address given. Or if anyone has the time to email me at some point, that would be great even if its a month or 2 from now. For now, if you have any general advice or comments I would appreciate them.
Basically I left because I was physically threatened by a local magical associate who was good friends with my Practicus. He had severe mental problems which he was being treated for. I suppose the rule about leaving still stands but I could see that the instability was getting worse.
I can't go into any more details. Thanks for allowing me a place to express my experiences.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"This sounds like the kind of distortion that would have come from Motta, though I'm sure I never read it from him - it just has the same kind of tone of several other things he misunderstood or distorted."
I can assure you it isn't Motta lineage or anything Motta taught. True, Motta rarely passed anyone beyond the Zelator grade but the ones who did he developed a strong relationship with. I believe Gunther for example was a 4=7 or thereabouts and I Know personally that Bersson was a Dominis Liminis when Motta passed away.
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Ave Frater,
That is very interesting....
How did Motta pass anyone beyond Probationer? Motta held the grade of Neophyte when Germer passed away...
In L.V.X.,
Tony
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Motta had been a Zelator for 3 months before Germer passed away. Aside from that he was also the only officer of the A.'.A.'. left when Germer died. He worked through the rest of the grades on his own as MANY, MANY A.'.A.'. members have had to not just since Germer died, but since Crowley died as well! He also had access to materials from his time staying with the Germer's that nobody else had access to since the robbery of the library. He knew what was required of the higher grades and how to test for those higher grades. Aside from that a Neophyte can pass a Probationer to Neophyte... so your question is a moot point.
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@frateruranus said
"Motta had been a Zelator for 3 months before Germer passed away. Aside from that he was also the only officer of the A.'.A.'. left when Germer died."
He wasn't an officer of the A.'.A.'. His listing as Imperator in one place was at his own hand. It was one of his early frauds.
"Aside from that a Neophyte can pass a Probationer to Neophyte... so your question is a moot point."
I suspect you have in mind the line in The Task of a Neophyte that erads, "Let [the Probationer] make an appointment with his Neophyte at the pleasure of the latter for the ceremony of Initiation."
That's a scheduling detail, though. The person who admits the Probationer a Neophyte is a Zelator. (Read the flip side of the same document.)
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@frateruranus said
"Motta had been a Zelator for 3 months before Germer passed away. Aside from that he was also the only officer of the A.'.A.'. left when Germer died. He worked through the rest of the grades on his own as MANY, MANY A.'.A.'. members have had to not just since Germer died, but since Crowley died as well! He also had access to materials from his time staying with the Germer's that nobody else had access to since the robbery of the library. He knew what was required of the higher grades and how to test for those higher grades. Aside from that a Neophyte can pass a Probationer to Neophyte... so your question is a moot point."
Ave Frater,
I had not known that Motta made it to Zelator - I remember seeing a letter some months before Germer's death where Germer tells Motta - "you are at best a Neophyte"....
Whatever works - working up the A.'.A.'. System on your own is outstanding - I believe there are a few forum members here doing the same - the only issue I see is the subjectivity of not having someone objectively test you for each grade...
In L.V.X.,
Tony
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I agree Tony but in some cases, death of an instructor without an established hierarchy or a superior above him for example, where going through the material yourself. With the right circle around you though you can get the work done. In the 70s, when Motta was in Brazil, he would have the students recite their chapters to each other and and the listener would send a letter confirming the recitation was done and the number of mistakes if any.
U