IOT
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@Modes said
"I wonder do the traditional orders experiment with new technologies, new methods, new facts about the universe etc? Seems like a lot of fun!"
Fair question. With regard to Temple of Thelema, this would be the encouraged case with the most senior members. Part of our basic definition and purpose is to provide a specific standard method that provides predictable standard results up to a point - laying in a foundation. Once in the Second Order, there is one sub-grade that especially completes and integrates the foundation layers before the next sub-grade opens things wide open. There, and especially once one reaches 6°, there is a responsibility not only for their own distinctive work, but a progressive responsibility toward future generations.
But that's not the work of (or for) beginners.
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93,
OTO is largely if not only the summation of the actions taken by its members, almost entirely at the local level. In other words, be the OTO which you want to see in the world. If you want more X, teach X, give X, find X, or whatever. I see a lot of complaints (dont get me wrong, they are not only valid but needed), but I rarely see solutions. Its unfortunate, its like a bowel blockage.
The EGC doesnt necessitate a Standard Interpretation of Liber AL just like the performance of the Gnostic Mass doesnt necessitate a Standard Interpretation (even the Creed which is a confession of faith, has various interpretations... and who knows how many OTO actually believe the Creed or connect it to other beliefs, etc.). In other words, I dont think its attempting or even going by proxy to end up with a One Interpretation of the Book sort-of-thing. Either way, the work of the IOT and OTO seem to be different. Crowley say OTO as a social order upholding and spreading the Law on a material, practical basis with little emphasis on the traditional goals of the A.'.A.'. (K&C, Crossing Abyss, etc.).
What exactly would you change? Would you make the EGC less organized and centralized? I dont particularly enjoy all the bureacracy around it, nor is the Gnostic Mass my favcorite thing to do on a Sunday, but I recognize the power and need of such a central ritual and an organization around it to supply deacons, priests, etc. in a systematic fashion (i.e. EGC).
P.S. If the IOT is 'more Thelemic' than the OTO, what exactly is making the OTO 'less Thelemic' in your mind? The fact that they are organizing around general principles rather than anarchy?
IAO131
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My reasoning for considering the OTO as less Thelemic would be discouragement of individuality in a couple of the group's functions. For instance, what is and is not allowed at a mass has become rather nit-picky, e.g. not being able to pass a certain point on the steps or decree "oh-yay." I definitely think the bureaucracy needs to be scaled back. I see the IOT as endorsing and greatly supporting individual experimentation and expression, however, I may be wrong. If so, I welcome accounts to the contrary. To that end, has anyone here had any affiliation with them?
I also think the EGC and OTO should return to being two separate entities as in the days of Hymenaeus Alpha. This way the OTO is free to focus on initiations and other events so that the order may grow more freely.
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Inasmuch as this forum has no connection to O.T.O. at all, it seems inappropriate to continue a discussion about redesigning it.
Some threads take brief digressions before getting back on course. That's fine.
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Apologies for the off-subject nature of the thread. Aum418 has my e-mail. 93 All.
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It isn't inconsistent with Thelema (or less Thelemic) for an order to maintain orthodoxy in its performance of certain rites. If IOT is an initiatory order, I'm guessing they have some measure of consistency in their performance of initiations.
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@Aum418 said
" The fact that they are organizing around general principles rather than anarchy?
IAO131"
before I make any comment, please clarify what you determine as anarchy?
note. this question is not related to the O.T.O, but to a general interpretation; and more specifically it is relevant to the IOT, which, as far as I know, practices a form of "Chaos Magick"
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From what I have seen in the last few years and in my discussions with key members, the OTO is starting to head in an upward direction as far as executing Crowley's vision for the order is concerned. The OTO is purely a plane of disks order. It isn't about experimentation with magick etc. That is left to the individual members to do of their own accord. Promulgation of Thelema & the establishment of a new Social Order is the purpose of the OTO in my interpretation of the Blue Equinox. Promulgation of Thelema doesn't mean "advancing the magickal principles" of THelema, it means getting the word out (through publishing etc), proselytizing about Thelema (handing out short essays & tracts on the street) and bringing people together to discuss THelema & experience it with initiates. The OTO initiates in a masonic sense, it teaches principles & ideas by which one can live their life to its fullest but it doesn't initiate in the sense of bringing the consciousness up to higher levels. The OTO can pull you out of the Qlippoth with its Man of Earth degrees, sure, but the higher elevations are a different matter altogether and are not the purview of the OTO system.
The advancement of the magickal principles of Thelema are for the A.'.A.'. & similar inner planes contacted orders (such as Grant's Typhonian Order) . There is nothing barring an OTO member from doing this work without the A.'.A.'. etc though.
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Ther are many methods of publicity which are effective yet the OTO seems to avoid these in order to keep its sense of occult mystery.
These include fund raisers for charities which lead to public places such as hospitals and parks, monuments etc with the OTO emblem to be placed in the city. These also help to create a communion with the people of the city and the OTO members. If you look at small towns often a single christian church serves as the social gathering which connects the whole population in a common spirit. Which is basically what a church is meant to do. I would think the OTO could use these methods as well as, insinuating the central thelemic formula and ideals into other religions and institutions, to accustom the people, warm the water up to the OTO as it were.
Also I saw a documentary on the Ku Klux Klan recently, and it seems they grew from obscurity to membership of over 4 million in only a few years, and that was in a time without television much less the internet. their methods of accumulating popularity were such as holding huge parades, hosting big public parties and carnivals, and bribing local churches to back them by spamming the offering plates with fists full of cash. The Nazi party in Germany also rose from obscurity to rule the nation by such methods of publicity.
The OTO and Thelema in general could use such method to advance is public image exponentially. I mean ask most people about free masons, they say, oh those guys in sily hats that drive those little cars and motor bikes, I hear they raise money for kids with cancer.
ask most people about the OTO they say huh? until you mention Crowely then they slam the door in your face.
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@Froclown said
"Also I saw a documentary on the Ku Klux Klan recently, and it seems they grew from obscurity to membership of over 4 million in only a few years"
93,
Four Million KKK members? The Ku Klux Klan may have better household recognition, but I am absolutely sure they have a far inferior membership roll than the O.T.O.
93, 93/93
VQI
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@Sadarar said
"
@Froclown said
"Also I saw a documentary on the Ku Klux Klan recently, and it seems they grew from obscurity to membership of over 4 million in only a few years"93,
Four Million KKK members? The Ku Klux Klan may have better household recognition, but I am absolutely sure they have a far inferior membership roll than the O.T.O.
93, 93/93
VQI"
You are absolutely wrong. According to 2008 numbers there are about 6,000. Current numbers at USGL of OTO are less than 1500 members.
Why would you ever think that?
IAO131
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Since the subject of this thread is the IOT, not the OTO, it is perhaps worth pointing out that 10 years ago it was already recognised that the IOT was the second largest group of Chaos Magicians on the planet. The largest, including myself, was and is "people who used to be in the IOT".
I have an enormous regard for Pete Carroll, who I regard as a friend even if I haven't seen him for ages, but when he let go of the reins it became even more of what I called "Model T Magic" - IOT people could experiment in any colour of magic they wanted "as long as it's black".
Yes, I know Ford never actually said that, but having read a 1992 (ish) article in "The Wiccan" from a supposed major IOT author where he said:
"We use every pantheon, one ritual might invoke Satan and in another we might invoke Lucifer"
....it seemed a valid point!
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yes the KKK and the Nazi party have very few members now, due to the nature of what they really represent.
But at one time the KKK was at over 4 million strong, this was after it was crushed once and was revived. A high ranking member used black mail and threats to get all the congress seats in Indiana filled with klan members, whom he blackmailed with evidence of their hate crimes. Then he beat, raped and poisoned a woman, and the box of black mail came out, showing all the crimes and illegal election rigging came to light, and the KKK lost 3 million members, in a matter of months.
But that's irrelevant.
I was just saying the way both groups whipped up enthusiasm and the techniques they used, gained them lots of members in a short period of time. And also churches and free masons and such gain positive recognition in the eye of the public, by symbolic gestures of charity and fund raises to support sick children and community projects, etc.
By remaining secret, it only hurts the chances or spreading the law to the world. What if the Catholic church had remained secret and unknown, rather than converting the Pagan, and the kings of Europe, most of us would have never heard of Jesus.
As for the IOT, I was under the impression that they dissolved the pact some years back around the time Peter Carroll broke all contact in order to pursue his theories in Physics, without the occult millstone around his neck.
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Froclown, I am starting to think you are a bit of an extremist. LOL. That's a joke son.
The KKK and Nazi party used techniques that preyed on the fears of their membership & propaganda in order to get the membership numbers they achieved. Those people banded together out of fear of what the future was going to bring in a world that was changing, from the freeing of the slaves to the civil rights movement in the case of the KKK and the German peoples loss in the first World War, which resulted in Germany losing their identity, their means to protect themselves etc & with the recent influx of Jewish people from Russia etc. Hitler was able to use that to give the Germans a scapegoat.
The KKK had the novels & films of the late 19th century and early 20th to portray them as protectors of virtue & Christian ideals, like Birth of a Nation. Hitler was able to use the newsreels etc. to manipulate what was going down & make the Nazi Party out in a similar manner.
These are NOT techniques the OTO should be using to acquire membership! Very UNThelemic.
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You do not thing the world which is plunging full scale towards the cliff or Nihilism which is the progression of unchecked Christianity, the Judaic banking system which is about to collapse, The ruin of the Protestant Capitalist economy as the third world exploitation it rest on becomes impossible, and other aspects which are destroying all faith and integrity of our moral guiding systems as the aeon come to a close, is not something that people should fear. The Violent death throws of islam which will likily bring about nuclear war, if the New law is not established to replace this hysteria with something more solid and lasting.
I think their is plenty of legitimate Fear that should bring people into Thelema.
And why not a propaganda film for Thelema like the Nazi "Triumph of the WILL". Even the ADA has such films, I saw plenty of films about brushing your teeth as a kid. And I can't drive down the street without seeing a giant billboard that says JESUS, or sneeze without hearing God bless you. However I never see or hear any reference to Thelema unless I go out of my way to look it up an google.
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Judaic banking system? The banking system was developed by the Knights Templar and just because some Jews own some banks by no means makes the system Judaic! How is capitalism Protestant?
You seem to want Thelema to be this thing about Kingly men in one post, espousing the striking of the downtrodden, the outcast etc and here you want Thelema to be something people come to for comfort in a time of desperation! That won't save the world, Thelema is not a Messianic religion. It is a religion about saving yourself, not finding comfort in the confines of a religion.
It won't be some propaganda film, touting Crowley as some sort of world saviour etc. that brings the New Aeon. It will be the rise of Kings & heroes who are also Thelemites, it will be through the way that our communities carry themselves in this age. Your post is filled with fear & uncertainty. I am sure that carries over into your daily life. What will help people to come to Thelema is not touting conspiracy theories, propaganda films or similar falsehoods. It is through success & being the embodiment of success, looking the part, playing the part & being the part. Essentially, if you want to be a Rock Star, start acting like one!
I watched the same videos as a child in school as you did and that isn't the same thing as watching "Birth of a Nation" or "Triumph of the Will". Both hid problems far deeper in the rotten core of those apples. They led to misconceptions. People no longer trust such things, at least not the people that Thelema would attract.
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the banking system I refer to as Judaic was half serious half satire of conspiracy theory. The half serious part is that Christianity totally abrogates usury, where as Judaism (and Islam as per the knights Templar) allows for limited usury. This is how Jews came to rise up in the banking system in the first place. Modern banking is usury at its finest.
As for how is Capitalism protestant its Calvinist to be specific, I will refer you to Max Webber.
Your do not seem to see what I mean. It is the Christian notion of Equality before God that was what Nietzsche called slave mentality. It was a trick so that the repressed Jews could feel equal to the Romans and even to claim the Emperor was equal to the common peasant, as before God all are equal.
When this Idea spread the people lost faith in their ruling class, and rebelled, which turned the whole order of society upside down. The Transcendent virtues of the Kings, were replaced by the materialist desires and interests of the common serfs. We can see this reversal is Hegel's Master -Slave Dialectic where the the serf class begins to industrialize into the market class which replaces the noble class virtues with free-market materialism. Marx takes over from here where the worker class overturns the market class, in the final degeneration into communism, or Rule by the serf class, rather than the merchants market system, the warriors Honor, the Priests piety value, nor the Kings true virtues handed down from the Transcendent, (the sanctuary behind the cloud).
Now it is my contention that, Therion as a prophet is a prophet in the sense spoken of in the cloud upon the sanctuary. That is, every religion or church, actually every nation or ethnicity is related to the transcendent via a set of beliefs and rituals than express the ineffable mysteries to the common people. Now each set of rituals is appropriate to a particular people, these rituals make up that peoples traditions, including its Gods or in some cases ancestors. Their is a general formula which all belief systems and traditions adhere to that connects them the transcendent.
However over time, the traditions tend to break down, as technology changes, people with different beliefs interact, things are re-interpreted or corrupted for political gain etc. The falling from transcendent to material values that I have shown above happens. (One key sign of this is political correctness, liberalism, modernism in general, the support of weakness and disdain for raw expression of power or self advancement)
When this happens, A prophet or Prophets, are sent by the inner sanctuary the (A.'.A.'.) to re-establish a new general formula that will re-establish the KINGS of the Earth, and re-set the process of degeneration. Such than whole new people or regenerated old age people will once again receive training in the True virtues, The Prophet(s) shall train Priests and the Priests shall administer the virtues to the peoples. And re-establish a WORLD ORDER, in place of the degeneracy and nihilism left in the wake of Christianity.
The Magus (Crowley) established the new formula. The Magisters shall Prepare the Temple (the minds of the people and the world itself) and the Adeptus, who is known as a "leader of a school of thought" shall administer the rituals to the people. Shall serve as the priests spoken of in Cloud upon the Sanctuary.
If this New law is not rightly established, then Yes their is much to fear, as the degeneration of humanity may never stop until we destroy ourselves.
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I can agree with your last post and I am glad your were "half-jokin" about the conspiracy theory stuff. I am not saying though that all should be treated as equals but should be treated with respect, as the sleeping gods that they are unless they prove themselves to be an enemy. Even a slave deserves to be respected! It is those who pretend to be something they aren't that don't deserve our respect.
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One does not treat a tractor with cruelty nor does one pamper it and put it on display, feeling it is cruel or shows a lack of compassion to Use a tractor and get it dirty.
The purpose of a tractor is to get dirty, to be warn into the ground by its owner, and in the process of wearing it out, the owner uses the tractor as a TOOL to achieve his own WILL. The tractors WILL is to be used and warn out, it has no WILL that is not the owners WILL.
The same is True with Slaves, their purpose is to serve and thus it is proper that they be USED up as fodder to ones own WILL, a tool run into the ground and used for a purpose that meets its talents. Be they mental or physical skills.
I would go so far as to say ideally with Thelema one self is King and all other humans, animals, objects, beliefs, etc are merely tools to be used, worn out, and cast aside, with no value in themselves but only as means to ones ends.
We see this also with the Buddha, "Once you reach the other bank, discard the raft", and to the Tao Teh Ching "the Tao treats all things like straw dogs, and thus the sage treats all things like straw dogs", Here a straw dog means a sacrifice that is made in place of a real animal, it is something easily discarded and used up as it is used. This resembles closely the attitude of Max Stirner when he begins his essay by quoting Goethe ""Ich hab' Mein' Sach' auf Nichts gestellt" (I have set my affairs upon nothing). and also "You are nothing but—my food, even as I am fed upon and turned to use by you”
What then does Crowely say about all of this Egoism, which the liberal minded and new age hippies have declared the enemy of Man?
From magick without tears ch. XLVI
"Selfishness? .... in a way the whole structure of the ethics of Thelema is founded upon it" "Selflessness,""the great characteristic of the Master of the Temple, the very quintessence of his attainment, is not its contradictory, or even its contrary; it is perfectly compatible (nay, shall we say friendly?) with it."
"This is the central doctrine of Thelema in this matter. What are we to understand by it? That this imbecile and nauseating cult of weakness— democracy some call it—is utterly false and vile."To further quote would waste space. But I think I have show due evidence that the mystical schools are not about "sweetness and light" and far less about universal human brotherhoods where we all hold hands and sing kumbaya. Humanity is a brotherhood and as brothers we fight, see Cain and Able on the true nature of brotherhood, for further study look into the childhood of Joseph.
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Nobody said anything about sweetness & light & your tractor example is a fallacious arguement because a tractor isn't self-aware. Treating people as tools to be cast aside when done with, eventually you run out of tools. There is nothing liberal minded or against the quotes you give of Crowley in being respectful to people. Your example is not egoism as Crowley expressed it either, but Egotism. You seem to be picking quotes that suit your particular political agenda and ignoring the rest. If you are playing Devil's Advocate, fine, all's fair but if you are picking & choosing you are little more than something akin to a CHristian Fundamentalist. Even Marcelo Motta didn't advocate your extremes but taught to treat everyone you meet as if they were a god sleeping, for indeed they are a god sleeping! That doesn't mean equal or same or homogenized. Fuck man, Motta was as far right as a Thelemite can get!