The Solar Phallic King
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I protest that what you call the progression of the aeon is actual the progression or rather the inertia of forces than started long before this aeon began and those forces bust wind down, reach their end before the currently slight influences of the new aeon can take hold. According to Evola we are living in a cycle of kali yuga, which is the the iron age before a new golden age. The Iron age will end with total degeneracy that is as for as liberal humanism can go, then new transcendent kings will emerge to take us back to a golden age,
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Thank you for the warm welcome, Frater I-Ness. I'm coming off a good long break from debates and it's made me a little hyper, especially when it's summer and I'm getting a luxurious six hours sleep. I am really glad to see this forum isn't lost in the lethargy that has overtaken so many and greatly appreciate all I've gained from the discussions so far - as well as everyone's tolerance for me jumping in full blast.
@Frater I-Ness said
"yet with new understanding in quantum theory and mathematics, the notion of causality is questionable; Space-Time at the Planck scale is not a continuum, this counter-intuitive fact is lost on most C21st scientists. It is actually an assumption that "stars" may not be "conscious" in and of themselves, firstly because no one as yet has given a satisfactory definition for "Consciousness". "
You have me here.
Because we can't really know at this point what the consciousness of a star is, nor to what extent it resembles our own, I erred on the side of empirical data for this specific instance. I'm not nearly as Newtonian as that.What I mean in this case is that I don't agree with the use of the image to imply that conflict is either non-occurring when people are properly in their "orbit" (which is one way it's been applied in an overly literal sense) or else that it means that two people heading towards each other on the same course are necessarily obligated to conflict (which is the other way.) The imagery Crowley uses is beautiful, and much can be gained from contemplation of it, but I would argue that regardless of a star's Consciousness, it does not have choice as we know it. My Soul may well have laid out a star-like path by which it will collect all the experiences and sensations that it needs to accomplish its Will in all the lifetimes beyond this one, and those may include experiences which I just have to push forward through regardless of whether it ends in my explosion or someone else's (doesn't matter, it's just one dream among countless others) -- the image does hold very true for that.
But one of the problems in the discussion at hand is that its not very clear where people are talking about Will (..."Twue Will"...) vs. Desire...and the metaphor holds true for one better than the other. My Will may be star-like in its orbit, but Desire (and it's conspirator, Intellect) can initiate changes and patterns of thinking that are foreign to the nature of a star. I know this opens up a whole new area (either dreaded or beloved) in Thelemic debate....hence I was just trying to get a way with a drier version of stellar mechanics.
The main point I was after was that in my view, conflict can be consciously mediated in ways that expand my evolution and awareness of Will by the recognition of the specific choices available to me and the skillful application of my intent. But it's game theory - some are won by conflict, some by cooperation. Holding on to an interpretation of Crowley's metaphor that doesn't include the possibility of the latter is a dead end, in my book.
You raise an excellent point about how quantum theory can change a lot of these ideas we inherit - in ways that could not at the time be anticipated by those we look to for guidance, and thus puts us in an open, new field where we're going have to figure this out ourselves. If the topic of the New Aeon and quantum theory hasn't been exhausted yet in other threads, I would enjoy pulling the rest of this over to a new discussion. I wonder how the Liber Aleph passage would read if Michio Kaku had been on Crowley's bookshelf?
In Light, Life, Love and Liberty ~ Manami
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@Sr_MNA said
"Thank you for the warm welcome, Frater I-Ness. I'm coming off a good long break from debates and it's made me a little hyper, especially when it's summer and I'm getting a luxurious six hours sleep. I am really glad to see this forum isn't lost in the lethargy that has overtaken so many and greatly appreciate all I've gained from the discussions so far - as well as everyone's tolerance for me jumping in full blast. "
Soror, you are a breath of fresh air!!! I am very passionate about male-female energy balance, and you have given us the most realistic-practical example thus far. I quote below
"In my area, people are forming organic communities where those who choose this life and have the resources to pursue it find their unique niche as they see fit and proceed to do what pleases them in mutual benefit -- they are not waiting on some Supreme and Holy Scientific Illuminist King to lead the way.** I'm not talking about far-fetched idealistic communes**, either - these are successful businesses applying this principle to co-housing development, community sustained farming operations, employee-owned and operated corporations...increasingly mainstream and supported across a wide and diverse population and very much in demand. The gains that have come with being able to exchange across distance (and thus cultural boundaries) doesn't bode well for xenophobic model, and the pace at which technology changes the culture can radically change a local caste system overnight.
""
@Frater I-Ness said
"yet with new understanding in quantum theory and mathematics, the notion of causality is questionable; Space-Time at the Planck scale is not a continuum, this counter-intuitive fact is lost on most C21st scientists. It is actually an assumption that "stars" may not be "conscious" in and of themselves, firstly because no one as yet has given a satisfactory definition for "Consciousness". "You have me here.
Because we can't really know at this point what the consciousness of a star is, nor to what extent it resembles our own, I erred on the side of empirical data for this specific instance. I'm not nearly as Newtonian as that."True, we cannot for certain, but I think the analogy i presented above is a start; the hermetic axiom "As Above so Below" is the only means we have to contemplate such mysteries.
"What I mean in this case is that I don't agree with the use of the image to imply that conflict is either non-occurring when people are properly in their "orbit" (which is one way it's been applied in an overly literal sense) or else that it means that two people heading towards each other on the same course are necessarily obligated to conflict (which is the other way.) The imagery Crowley uses is beautiful, and much can be gained from contemplation of it, but I would argue that regardless of a star's
Consciousness, it does not have choice as we know it. "What you say seems accurate; The Will of the Stars must be supra-rational, I suppose our "choices" are the direct product of a finite intellect;"also reason is a lie" moreover there are mathematical considerations, celestial bodies existing within "infinite space" mainly have a "platonic" relationship, whereas within this finite space there is inevitable contact, osmosis, synergy and symbiosis, such that the "individual will" is somewhat subject to the "collective will" and this would imply that our politics are supremely important. I believe we should be approaching inter-stellar travel by now instead of squabbling over this insignificant dust particle, that way our options become exponential. our individual "True Wills" may simply be derivative functions of the ideal "Will of Mankind".
"
But one of the problems in the discussion at hand is that its not very clear where people are talking about Will (..."Twue Will"...) vs. Desire...and the metaphor holds true for one better than the other. My Will may be star-like in its orbit, but Desire (and it's conspirator, Intellect) can initiate changes and patterns of thinking that are foreign to the nature of a star. I know this opens up a whole new area (either dreaded or beloved) in Thelemic debate....hence I was just trying to get a way with a drier version of stellar mechanics."Don't you think desire is directly related to the short-sightedness of the ego? I think intellect may be the main obstacle to the inertia of "True Will", and further that a distortion of the "collective will' translates to a perversion of "Individual will" by directly limiting or otherwise changing the options available. so therefore practicality becomes of supreme importance as you rightly point out, as opposed to the celestial ideal.
"The main point I was after was that in my view, conflict can be consciously mediated in ways that expand my evolution and awareness of Will by the recognition of the specific choices available to me and the skillful application of my intent. But it's game theory - some are won by conflict, some by cooperation. Holding on to an interpretation of Crowley's metaphor that doesn't include the possibility of the latter is a dead end, in my book."
It seems plausible that the more distorted the "collective will" the less befitting the metaphor of individual "true will" becomes; as in the language of "catastrophe theory" there is likely to have been a bifurcation in the dynamical system. so ultimately we arrive at the same destination via different routes, as I said in the beginning I generally agree with you, please note i can be persnickety at times, it is an annoying idiosyncrasy I know!:roll: maybe a new metaphor like "Temporary True Will" relative to one's immediate position may be beneficial
"You raise an excellent point about how quantum theory can change a lot of these ideas we inherit - in ways that could not at the time be anticipated by those we look to for guidance, and thus puts us in an open, new field where we're going have to figure this out ourselves. If the topic of the New Aeon and quantum theory hasn't been exhausted yet in other threads, I would enjoy pulling the rest of this over to a new discussion. I wonder how the Liber Aleph passage would read if Michio Kaku had been on Crowley's bookshelf?"
This is one of my main areas of interest Soror, I am always interested in exchanging ideas within this metaphor, so feel free to go ahead and present your take on this topic in a new thread!
thank you once again for your input, it is greatly appreciated, you are welcome also once again!
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In the old comment for AL III:18 Crowley writes:
"An end to the humanitarian mawkishness which is destroying the human race by the deliberate artificial protection of the unfit."In the new comment he expands on this statement.
"In the good old days there was some sort of natural selection; brains and stamina were necessary to survival. The race, as such consequently improved. But we thought we knew oh! so much better, and we had “Christ’s law” and other slush. So the unfit crowded and contaminated the fit, until Earth herself grew nauseated with the mess. We had not only a war which killed some eight million men, in the flower of their age, picked men at that, in four years, but a pestilence which killed six million in six months. Should we not rather breed humanity for quality by killing off any tainted stock, as we do with other cattle? And exterminating the vermin which infect it, especially Jews and Protestant Christians? Catholic Christians are really Pagans at heart; there is usually good stuff in them, particularly in Latin countries. They only need to be instructed in the true meaning of their faith to reflect the false veils."Of course "exterminating jews" can be done in a lest gristly and far more effective way by replacing Judaism with a more effective and appealing law, which would entice and coerce the Jew to give up his allegiance to the "fiendish Jehovah".
Again from John Crow
www.thelema.nu/archives/257I fail to see how you can insist on separating Thelema from Crowley, or soy something absurd like Crowley did not understand the book of the law, when he wrote the book. His comment even says to appeal ONLY to his works in interpreting the book, not to the works of liberal humanism or Quantum mechanics.
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@Froclown said
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I fail to see how you can insist on separating Thelema from Crowley, or soy something absurd like Crowley did not understand the book of the law, when he wrote the book. His comment even says to appeal ONLY to his works in interpreting the book, not to the works of liberal humanism or Quantum mechanics."
Well finally you admit that your philosophy is a product of your own short-sightedness. I have no interest in "Cults of Personality", and even if i did, Crowley would not be my first choice. To me Thelema and Crowley are a paradox, and as a fan of paradoxes this is what attracts me to Thelema, according to you, if I as a physicist employ Einstein's theory of relativity i must also be a Zionist!? if you cannot see how absurd that statement is? then you are truly delusional?! in my book you are a Crowleyan not a Thelemite
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No you don't have to be a zionist, but you must realize that Einsteins Zionism and came from the same place as his genius. That you can not approve of his physics ability and deny his Zionism. That if you want to rise to the intellectual level of Einstein, to catch a glimpse of his genius, and the world as he saw it, You must accept take on Zionism.
Can you really invoke The Wisdom of Jupiter and reject the Wrath of Zeus.
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@Froclown said
"No you don't have to be a zionist, but you must realize that Einsteins Zionism and came from the same place as his genius. That you can not approve of his physics ability and deny his Zionism. That if you want to rise to the intellectual level of Einstein, to catch a glimpse of his genius, and the world as he saw it, You must accept take on Zionism.
Can you really invoke The Wisdom of Jupiter and reject the Wrath of Zeus."
Ok then stop contradicting yourself. I can realize and acknowledge the complexity of individuality, and recognize the permutations and combinations of how the specifics play out, and still figure out what is most applicable to me from my particular position in Space-Time. I don't need to deny his Zionism, yet his Zionism is not particularly relevant from where I stand, moreover I elevate neither Crowley nor even Einstein above myself, I may be a genius in my own right, and as such even speculate that ideas are not internally generated but rather the brain/mind is just a transmitter-receiver such that no ideas are essentially our own, and hence no two ideas from one person are necessarily directly related. Science has failed to provide physical evidence for memory storage, and this has led some pioneers such as "Rupert Sheldrake" www.sheldrake.org/homepage.html to speculate along with his theory of morphogenetic fields that memories are stored in such "non-local fields" let alone imagination. Ultimately within or without the metaphor of Thelema I will reach MY OWN CONCLUSIONS. I may decide to reject Thelema entirely tomorrow! like you say Thelema is merely a tool for my Will via my intellect, to be used and discarded.
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no one say's you have to accept Thelema nor that you have to accept the basic fundamental world view, which it Traditional European Right wing politics and and a form of perennialism that accepts a common esoteric source behind all exoteric religious and social systems.
However, also no one says you have to be a Christian nor does anyone say you have to accept the world view and teachings of Christ. But if you claim to be a Christian, that means that you do accept Christ's world view, the very view that Horus pecks out of Christ's corpse on the cross. Thus one can not hold Christian world view and the ethics than derive from it and still claim to accept Thelema which is antithical to the ethics and perspective of Christ.
Christianity = we are all equally deserving of grace and to be happy healthy and well off, the world is harsh and full of suffering and we must all work to make life safer, better and happier for all.
Thelema = Everyone has a unique sets out to conquer the world, the harshness of life are ordeals challenges than make life worth living, We have no obligation to remove the hardships of others. We are to be proud and self driven to conquer the world as it confronts us, and set out to experience ever form of pleasure and pain our bodies and minds can handle. Not to remove hardship and suffering, but to endure them until they end, and to transcend enduring such that every experience is Joy to be reveled in rather than endured.
Christians are called to empathy and compassion to suffer with others.
Thelema in directly words states "I hate the consoled and the consoler" "Compassion in the vice of kings" and "Damn those who pity". ect. To suffer with others only spreads suffering, compassion makes Pity contagious as Nietzsche puts it.
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@Froclown said
"I fail to see how you can insist on separating Thelema from Crowley, or soy something absurd like Crowley did not understand the book of the law, when he wrote the book. His comment even says to appeal ONLY to his works in interpreting the book, not to the works of liberal humanism or Quantum mechanics."
I've seen this exact debate played out so many times on Thelemic forums (including John's blog) that there's not a lot I can say here that hasn't already been said more times than I can stand to think about. But this discussion so far has been very useful in spurring me to reflect deeply on what has brought me back around and where I want to go from here...so redundant as it may be, and in case you really do want to try to understand this side of it:
I was heavily active for ten years in Thelemic communities - it was only in the last couple of those that I started encountering Thelemites (all online) that were demanding this return to "fundamentals" in Crowley's work and trying to draw a tighter circle around what or who was considered Thelemic. Prior to that, while debate over particulars was constant and heavy and often just as divisive, all the Thelemites I'd encountered worked from the assumption that we were supposed to emulate Crowley's curiosity, breadth of study and investigation into the most up to date scientific theories and ideas of his time before attempting to understand the Class A docs. They not only encouraged me to explore anything that could expand my range of knowledge to better grasp the very difficult concepts and language presented in the work, but to push myself rigorously to develop the kind of objectivity, balance, and tolerance expressed via Liber Librae so that I wouldn't hamstring myself with aversions to one symbol set or another. So I have a hard time understanding why this openness is so threatening or how it constitutes trying to separate Crowley from Thelema. For me, learning about Thelema has always come through interaction with my Brothers and Sisters - direct experience, testing, and observation of results. The theoretical arguments or opinions were just the things we experimented with in our day to day life with each other. Some of Crowley's ideas have held water...some haven't, and those are set aside in favor of what works. The dichotomy you set up here is far too simplistic for me to take seriously - it may work fine for you based on your personal experiences, but it's useless to me. If the quotations you base this argument are enough for you, so be it...but surely you have noticed there was an "each for himself" in there. I did not notice any mention of liberal humanism or quantum mechanics in the Comment, and actually, it's "only by appeal to my writings" not "by appeal only to my writings." If one is going to be so literal in interpretation, it's best to get the words right.
There are many ways to approach Crowley's work - for me, I came to Thelema based on a strong empathetic connection with the man himself gained through an intensive study of Confessions (which I was doing for a class, as I had no interest in Crowley's legacy at the time - it seemed like an interesting and slightly controversial case study.) I come from a religious raising very similar to his own, and in my early teens had already fought my way through a fundamentalist conditioning that had tried from the first week of my life on to instill fears in me that would make me obedient to whatever a spiritual figurehead told me to do, think, or believe (ranging from the traditional eternal pain of hellfire to some quite creative ones, like getting brain cancer for reading books that God wouldn't approve of.) Breaking that left me utterly without the compunction to worry about disobeying a Prophet, straying off the straight and narrow, or facing the disapproval of my "tribe." I developed my beliefs regarding freedom and my dedication to it long before I encountered Crowley's writing, and I still to this day don't need Thelema to provide me with any religious or philosophical justification for them.
What I did see in Thelema was a very powerful Mystery, and a very intelligent and creative person (Crowley) wrestling with what it meant for his life. Of course I don't think that Crowley fully understood the Book of the Law- "the scribe" is warned directly that he won't, and that prophets don't know everything, and his writings reflect his work to refine his understanding of the Law throughout his lifetime - it wasn't just easily given to him. The fascination with his journey led me to experiment with his work and to ultimately credit its processes for being able to promote the development of a type of genius whose presence enriches humanity - yet this has not made me blind to the discouraging pile of wrecks that line the sides of this road, either.
I have been blessed to be around individuals of true genius for much of my life, enough to know that for all those times when something almost unearthly wise, knowing, or beautiful breaks through them, it doesn't change the personal struggles or perceptions that keep them bound to the karma of their time, place, and biological/emotional makeup. Because of my background, I understand what it is like to be able to find deep, timeless meaning in Christian scripture (as Crowley obviously did) and at the same time call for those who would shove it in your face to be fed to the Lions. What I have gained from study of Crowley's work and the practices associated with it is a very joyful appreciation for the puzzles I have been presented with in this life, and also true empathy and compassion for those who engage the Mysteries in whatever form it appears to them. For me, it's all a reflection of Thelema. I can't look at anything which shows the splendid miracle that is existence and **not **see the Law within it. I don't particularly feel like putting blinders on, and since I no longer have to worry about something damning me to pain and suffering for such waywardness...I won't. It's that simple.
I'm not going to labor much harder on this point - you either get it or you don't, you agree or you don't. I've been in this scene long enough to know that Thelema frequently attracts people who need Crowley as a Prophet/Saint/infallible King-that-was to justify some behavior or attitude that would be considered unacceptable and unhealthy in any other society. I will not waste my time on that. I know the dangers of pity - I've dealt with half a dozen dearly loved ones' destruction or death via their addictions, most claiming them as part of their Thelemic education/Will, and learned about "enabling" the hard way. I also know that there are dangers and ordeals on this path that make "tough love" very necessary, as well as what happens when someone can't handle the emotional forces unleashed by initiatory forces because they came into this too blind and broken to really have this incarnation be anything more than a warm up for it.
It is my understanding based on what I've been told over the years that this is why the A.'.A.'. curriculum - in particular the student portion - exists. If we were only to approach Thelema by the writings of Aleister Crowley (noting that you make no distinction between works he writes and works he claims were given to him by an Intelligence beyond his own), then there would be no need to encourage the study of such an extensive list of outside texts. If Compassion for those not yet understanding the Law or being received as Initiates was such an alien concept to Thelema, there would be no obligations on the highest Initiates to devote their lives in service to teaching it. And if Love - basic care and affection for the whole of mankind, dross and all, as sentimental and self-sacrificing as a parent's love for a child - wasn't part of it, then the A.'.A.'. itself wouldn't exist to ensure that the lights stayed on throughout the ages. Read "The Cloud on the Sanctuary" and then Liber XXXIII: An Account of A.'.A.'. - note what changes have been made to "update" that work. Note what remains constant. That's all that has been revised in the formula of Love, as far as I'm concerned. And back to the point of the overall discussion - if one is looking for a model to emulate in ordering earthly societies, I would give far more attention to the concepts Liber XXXIII contains than trying to slavishly emulate the feudal model of "Crowleyesque" daydreams.
Just how I see it, take it or leave. If anything resembling GAWD showed up and tried to tell me I was wrong on this point, I would thank it for it's concern and send it back to where it came from...so good luck Mr. Person I Just Met Online.
I trust by this point we're pretty clear in each other's opinions on this subject so I hope you'll pardon me if I move on to new ground, with my thanks for all this debate has clarified for me, and your participation in that.In Light, Life, Love, and Liberty ~ Manami
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93,
Great post. It always seems to me that any real growth is about undoing knowledge, not compiling it. All our formulae dissolve in Nuit at the end ... and then we move on towards another end, which of course turns out to be just a further step or phase.
93 93/93,
EM
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Just for a start, I see no reason to hold to Crowley's notion of receiving texts from supernatural beings to be anything more than poetic expression an one hand, and an a appeal to a made up authority to attract what the church of the subgenius would call "bobbies".
Nor do I accept everything that Crowley writes, when he contradicts known scientific facts about the universe, for example their is no soul, no reincarnation, no literal gods, no karma (other than causality itself). But Christian morals contradict the known facts of Nature, it supports and allows to survive that which nature would have destroyed. Nature produces by trial and error, thus a great deal of the forms the dust kicks up are failures, which only can exist in a liberal community, by the detriment to the common good. Pretty much any element that Crowley writes than would contradict Richard Dawkins "Brights" one must take a close look and see if he is not just being poetic, or pretending to believe literally in some notion just to gain followers who are impressed by supposed supernatural powers, Ie being a fraud to get, money, sex, and minions to aid in his own WILL.
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" Nature produces by trial and error, thus a great deal of the forms the dust kicks up are failures, which only can exist in a liberal community, by the detriment to the common good. "
Could you please define "the common good"? What do you mean by the word "common"? What do you mean by the word "good"?
Could you please give your rationale for caring about it?
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In the body the common or rather higher good, is the health of the body, and many cells that are not fit die off or are killed off by the immune system to keep the body functioning.
In a game of chess the higher good is to capture the opponents king, and many pieces are sacrificed to that ends. Each piece has its own WILL, a bishops WILL in to move diagonally, the rook to move perpendicular. They all do their WILL in service to the higher transcendent ends, and the request of the King.
In a natural environment, each animal is part of a system of balance. Each plant feeds some animals and poisons others, each animal eats some animal and is eaten by another, the nests they build, their behaviors all interact into a higher whole. The strong emerge stronger, the weak die off. The whole is preserved by his.
If the king tries to save every pawn, and especially not hurt any opponent pawns, them he leaves himself open to attack, also the game is not played.
If the body stops killing off weak and cancerous cells, or even bacteria from outside the body, the body will get weak or even die. Rather, "xenophobia" is what protects the body, and it is what make my body distinct from the world and from your body.
If the animals in the ecosystem stop playing their part, and avoid killing or upsetting other beings, then the whole system fails, all the animals die, or they weaken the everyone by supporting colonies of the weak. If you support a leper colony in the center of town, then you open yourself up to plagues. If you kill and burn the bodies of lepers, you prevent harm to all.
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This thread should go to the just plain nuts forum. It certainly qualifies for off-topic.
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Also I am not just mindlessly following Crowley. Rather at entire tradition with lots of people speaking on its behalf, Machiavelli, Nietzsche, Julius Evola, Jean-Marie Le Pen, Alain De Benoist, Tomislav Sunic, and many political parties, social groups, etc.
Such as the Rose Noire
www.rosenoire.org/essays.phAnd especially see this essay
www.rosenoire.org/archives/The_Occult_Technology_of_Power.tx -
@Nudor said
"This thread should go to the just plain nuts forum. It certainly qualifies for off-topic."
Considerations of the political application of Thelema may not be your forte Nudoro, that doesn't translate to being off-topic, rather on the contrary it ultimately may be the truest test of the validity of Thelemic philosophy. You didn't seem to have a problem with the Obama Nation of Desolation Thread??
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Agreed. I'm spending some time thinking about how the following quote from Liber XXXIII may apply to our conversation:
"But all exterior societies subsist only by virtue of this interior one. As soon as external societies wish to transform a temple of wisdom into a political edifice, the interior society retires and leaves only the letter without the spirit. It is thus that secret external societies of wisdom were nothing but hieroglyphic screens, the truth remaining inviolable in the Sanctuary so that she might never be profaned."
And I'm also re-reading some Nietzsche, among others, in an old ethics textbook I haven't read in a very long time. Back in the day, I just thought he was the devil - you know, like Crowley... lol... Trying to give him a proper read and let him speak this time.
Nietzsche is on to something, of course, but I'll bet Epicurius enjoyed his life more. Kicking it all around...
Peace.
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Nietzsche was all about life.
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Could you point me to some of that? Most of what I've read is bleak and praises struggle for the production of strength. But there's no purpose in praising that strength that I can see other than providing a rationale for the rejection of the eternal "Christian" death and the revaluation of success. Which is great in it's own right, don't get me wrong. It just seems that someone who constantly is telling themselves how good tragedy and struggle are for them will create for themselves a tragic and struggle-filled life.
Personally, I'm not into strength for strength's sake alone. It just doesn't motivate me. Could you direct me to something in Nietzsche about enjoying one's own life? About pleasure? Friendship? Peace of mind? Something glad-hearted?
I must admit, the selection I have is rather limited in that regard.
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Nietzsche kills people all the time who talk about waiting for the next world and being deserters of this world.
A friend should be your best enemy according to Nietzsche.
You probably should not read "selections" with Nietzsche because all I hear is that it confuses people. You've got to read his works in their entirety. Beyond Good and Evil and Thus Spoke Zarathustra are a good one, two combination.