Lineages lineages and more lineages
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93,
Underabloodredsky complained:
"One can't decide what's good for themselves without data. Did you not understand my analogy to other sciences, or does that not apply here?"
Well, that is a reason this Forum is here - to provide a window on one of the lineages.
93 93/93,
Edward
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There's no point in getting into a "magickal fraternity pissing contest." Actions speak louder than words, and sometimes silence speaks louder than actions. Usually, those who talk a good game suck at the game. Watch the players, not the commentators.
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See my review of BOTA here:
heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?t=5153
This is my contribution. I challenge anyone else here to do the same.
Edward Mason,
"Well, that is a reason this Forum is here - to provide a window on one of the lineages. "
OK, but if nobody speaks up, then what?
Ra-Imhotep
"There's no point in getting into a "magical fraternity pissing contest.""
Who said any thing about a pissing contest? That is a very immature way of deciding the truth. There is another way brought to a high perfection is ancient Greece and the great universities of yester-year, and that is of argument and debate, confined to the issues at hand. As I keep repeating over and over, it is no different than the Newsweek review of America's top colleges, or one school of physics debating another school etc.
"Actions speak louder than words, and sometimes silence speaks louder than actions. Usually, those who talk a good game suck at the game. Watch the players, not the commentators."
How do I do that? Where do I get the information, the data? Maybe if you told me your experiences, related to me the actions of others, then I would have some data!
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93,
Underabloodredsky said:
"OK, but if nobody speaks up, then what? "
I can't imagine a comparative guide to orders of the kind you say you are seeking. It would have to be written by people who had hopped from order to order, or lineage to lineage: the very worst, shallowest sort of people to guide you.
We don't find an order by comparison shopping. We are led to the one or the ones that are right for us, and which deliver the life lessons we need. Don't make the mistake of thinking this is a process that should be controlled solely by your conscious ego.
The one single thing I knew I was going to avoid when I began looking for initiation was anything to do with that dreadful Crowley character. But it was in the Thelemic community, and Temple of Thelema particularly, that I found the spiritual power and depth of intelligent understanding I was after. Which isn't to say you need the same thing I did, but is to say that you have to let the Universe make the decision, not just yourself.
You remarked in another, concurrent thread that you couldn't see the point in sitting with a Tarot card for a few minutes every day, month after month. But it's precisely that kind of exercise that *subverts *our conscious decision-making processes, and begin the process of transformation and opening.
Ask the Universe, as sincerely as you can, to show you where to go. Then - this is the *really * scary bit - let it.
93 93/93,
Edward
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93, My intention in this post is in no way to get a pissing contest started. @Modest,No one said you had to join anything. Some however find the desire to do so. Not to mention, it's easy to judge yourself, but to have another judge you... @Blood,There's info out there, it is just a matter of persistent searching. It would be nice to have a list and some basic info on the various orders/lineages, I agree, BUT I wouldn't go past basic info. Even then you lose some the lesson in persistent seeking. Also, your Oath goes to the Order, not individuals. Should they prove false, move on and continue your search for truth.
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To Edward Mason & FiliusBestia, I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I just don't think it has to be an either/or scenario. We can have both, do both. We can ask the universe and not be consciously ego dominated, but we can also discuss and share our experiences. I was not looking for some one person to rate 10 fraternity's, just the ones you have experience with, and in detail, the good and bad.
A lot of people are getting stuck or slowed by a lack of real information, and I'm saying let's address that.
The problem with the current tight-lipped restriction on information of personal experience is that it ends up being like an arranged marriage. It can take years until you get to know the person you married, and just damn luck if it's not the right one for you. The other option, is get to know by direct experience if possible, but that usually isn't, at least until you have invested years into the relationship.
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UABRS, 93,
I think I do understand what you're looking for, and I stick by the last sentence of my previous post - let the Universe make your call.
One issue too often sidestepped is that joining an order is NOT a comfortable ride. I roll my eyes over people complaining they ran into 'politics' or 'personality issues' in an order, and so they quit. The bulk, if not all, of the difficulties I've run into personally were well within my own ability to control, had I chosen to be aware of this at the time. I don't mean I could have stopped other people's behavior, but my own reactions produced much of the downside.
In any real initiatory experience there are going to be a series of difficult moments, or situations, or what have you, and the really committed aspirants push on regardless, maintaining a sense of their aspiration, while containing their sense of hurt. The teachers are human, the other members are too, and an order, while being a Sanctuary, is not going to be a Sanctuary from life. It won't be an ashram. But it can be a very good school for living.
One other thing: I discovered after I joined an order that I was in an extended community, which included those from other groups. People often find their initial phase of membership opens doors they didn't even know existed beforehand. I've come to believe the system is *meant *to work like this, to deter people who won't take the plunge.
You're asking for some degree of certainty here, or definite information, and the only honest answer I can give you from my own experience, is: You have to jump in and find out for yourself.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"UABRS, 93,
I think I do understand what you're looking for, and I stick by the last sentence of my previous post - let the Universe make your call.
One issue too often sidestepped is that joining an order is NOT a comfortable ride. I roll my eyes over people complaining they ran into 'politics' or 'personality issues' in an order, and so they quit. The bulk, if not all, of the difficulties I've run into personally were well within my own ability to control, had I chosen to be aware of this at the time. I don't mean I could have stopped other people's behavior, but my own reactions produced much of the downside.
In any real initiatory experience there are going to be a series of difficult moments, or situations, or what have you, and the really committed aspirants push on regardless, maintaining a sense of their aspiration, while containing their sense of hurt. The teachers are human, the other members are too, and an order, while being a Sanctuary, is not going to be a Sanctuary from life. It won't be an ashram. But it can be a very good school for living.
One other thing: I discovered after I joined an order that I was in an extended community, which included those from other groups. People often find their initial phase of membership opens doors they didn't even know existed beforehand. I've come to believe the system is *meant *to work like this, to deter people who won't take the plunge.
You're asking for some degree of certainty here, or definite information, and the only honest answer I can give you from my own experience, is: You have to jump in and find out for yourself.
93 93/93,
Edward"
I agreed with you entirely, Edward Mason, up until that last sentence. Re-read my posts, I am only asking for detailed, critical analysis of one's own personal experience.
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UABRS, 93,
"Re-read my posts, I am only asking for detailed, critical analysis of one's own personal experience.
"Which is one thing I wouldn't provide to anyone - certainly not in a public forum. It's not about a cookie-cutter process - it's about an intensely personal experience that encompasses the entire meaning and nature of an individual's life. Nobody but me could understand that, and I have a hard time verbalizing it, even for myself.
If you want the equivalent for yourself, then make the jump - and find out. It's about life, which you have to live one way or the other, so you may as well do it in company with a bunch of other crazy people.
93 93/93,
Edward
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Alrah, 93,
"the plunge lol
It's not neccessary and it's too much of a risk."If you don't feel called to do it, then don't. What I don't get is the 'risk.' As I just remarked to Underabloodredsky, we have to live life one way or the other, so the 'risk' in initiation is illusory.
If you're afraid of egomaniacal leaders, or that the Forces of Darkness will claim you, I suggest (and doing this IS part of the curriculum in any decent order) that you take a long, calm, silent look at why the idea of those things threatens you.
Crackpot leaders can, over the long haul, be excellent teachers, because they see and exploit our weak points. I say this having spent a couple of intense years in a cult in my 20s.
And if you're asked at your initiation to swear allegiance to His Infernal Majesty, you can always clam up.93 93/93,
Edward
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Some people including myself have written about the Motta lineage in previous posts. I can tell you that there, several changes and additions were made to Crowley's instructions. I also suggest looking at different lineages' websites to get a general idea of their attitudes. The personality of the head of the line does influence the teachings. Hope this helps.
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Ivory Towers are for Adepts of the worst kind.
So... get wet and start swimming!
The water is bitter cold one moment and piss warm the next, but you will get use to it.
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93, @Mr Mason, So you disagree with a compilation upon the various Thelemic sects, lineages, and organizations? While I agree that the search, and that leap, are "necessary", I fail to see no reason against a basic compilation of data.
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I am more in line with the "take the plunge" opinion.
Reading a persons critique only lets you know if you will get what you want from an order or what have you. The reality I see is one where it is not about what you want, it is about something entirely different: need (adequate enough).
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FiliusBestia, 93,
"I fail to see no reason against a basic compilation of data."
My problem is, how do you do this? Having sampled one or two, I know I would loathe some of the Christian-based Hermetic orders, which I know work wonderfully well for friends of mine. Do I say their group-mind energy is sucky, when for my friends it's the only thing worth doing?
And how do we rank them? Do we get 10 volunteers to join four orders each, then average their findings? One objection there is, you can't be in two Golden Dawn-type orders at one time: it simply isn't workable, nor acceptable to the Orders themselves. If you find one that doesn't mind double adherence, that IS one I'd put on a no-fly list.
Or, take a large order like the O.T.O. Some Lodges would be top-notch places to learn, others could be run by low-ranking people who don't know much, or might have poor people skills. And personnel tend to change, so the Lodge that got a D-minus in April is back on track by October, while our prized 'ranking' remains the same.
Then again, part of the process is a weeding out. Groups that are too soft on newbies probably have low standards all the way through, but they would perhaps rate highly because nobody pushed the lazy members out.
UnderaBloodRed Sky wanted me to supply "detailed, critical analysis of one's own personal experience." But the problem there is, what I have underdone, and undergo, is based on my own path - it would have little relationship, perhaps none, to anyone else's criteria. "Thus ye have star & star, system & system; let not one know well the other!" Things that were major life-battles for me would be irrelevant to other people, while I've seen things I skated through hold people back for years.
My final objection is this: with this list or guide-book, I think some people want a lazy or a cowardly way out. They want to know what's coming up, what unlovely ordeals might occur, and so on. The initiation process takes you through your own trip. You might need a "bad" experience to make you look at certain things you could dodge with a really charismatic teacher whose energy might too easily blind you to your own true failings and strengths.
Nobody can know what is going to happen when they commit to joining an Order. You have to let something more than your conscious, rational self make the call, or you will tend to maintain conscious rational control for too long. That's not to diss the Malkuthian gift of discrimination, which is still necessary, but it is only one tool among several.
93 93/93,
Edward
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FiliusBestia and UABRS, if you are asking about a fraternal organization that has meetings, maybe you can attend some open meetings or talks and ask questions. If you are asking about the A.'.A.'. then as I said, there is some information here, and some of the lineages have websites which may reflect the tone of that line. FiliuBestia since you are a Probationer you can ask your Superior anything and expect an intelligent answer.
Edward, I agree with you that for anyone to compile a listing as was suggested, is impossible. Someone brought up the example of Christian churches which branched out over the centuries. How could any one person do a compilation of data on all branches of that or any other religion? Also, over the years, organizations will change and any information you may find could be out of date. So, any spiritual Order or organization cannot be compared to say, a list of universities which can be ranked according to their academic standing, professors and social life.
But as far as I can see, there is no secrecy. -
93,
Perhaps a list of suggestions on what to look for in an order or lineage, rather than a rated list of organizations might help.
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Money: How much do they want, and why? Renting a decent ritual space isn't cheap, and can easily cost $200 or $300 a month. Sure, they might have a member with a huge basement, or on who has a large loft. But if they don't, they need most of your dues to cover a monthly (or whenever) rental.
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Interviews: Is there an interview first, or do they just say "C'mon down on Saturday night" ? The Freemasons and any order I know of do preliminary interviews. It sorts out the people who were told by their Spirit Guides from Arcturus to "apply for initiation because they say your Order of the Purple Haze is concealing the UFO that will take us all back home." And it provides a chance for an applicant to ask questions. Some questions can't be answered, but there should be an explanation of why not. How do the interviewers seem? Cagey? More interested in your body than your mind? Concerned about "possible future problems with your limited cashflow?" Or concerned about making sure their fraternity's standards are maintained?
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Standards: Are members required to attend regularly, or is it all easy come, easy go? If attendance is mandatory, newcomers will have more chance to interact with experienced people, and simply to listen in on the after-ritual conversations.
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Booze 'n drugs 'n that stuff: A touchy subject in some Thelemic circles, but a lot of people drawn to the mysteries are dealing with their lives through various kinds of dependency. The aim should be reducing dependency (as opposed to joyous indulgence or serious exploration), not increasing it, or thou art not athlete for any fight.
A friend of mine told me about being invited to a Gnostic Mass, where, unsurprisingly, there were several bottles of wine on hand. But two were consumed by the officers before the rite began - she wasn't impressed. Rituals have their own buzz, which is often quite subtle, and while you might feel just a toke or a quick hit enhances *your *experience, it will almost certainly detract from that of the group.
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Getting out: It's a perfectly legitimate question to ask at an interview, "What if I decide this isn't for me?" The reply should be something along the lines of, "Put your resignation in writing, return our rituals and papers to us, since they're ours, not yours to keep, and go have a nice life." If the response is along the lines of, "Why would you need to know that? Aren't you serious about this?" then you might want to avoid replying to their follow-up emails or phone-calls.
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Workloads: Any decent order wants people to *experience *the teachings, not just read or memorize them. That means devoting a certain amount of time per day/week/month to the curriculum. You should be offered some advice on how much time is required, and any material outlay on your part (for art materials, acquiring a robe or regalia, etc.).
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Allegiance and the Oath: An initiation Oath should cover a commitment to the Highest, and not require you to offer your soul to the leadership. The published Stella Matutina Oath (in Regardie's The Golden Dawn), for example, requires the aspirant to make no commitment that a serious solitary practitioner would not already have made, other than to guard the privacy of other members, and not reveal their membership outside of the gatherings.
Anyone else with experience have things to add to this list?
93 93/93,
Edward
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Perhaps the level of mentoring allowed? Some orders facilitate mentorship while others don't allow it.
I'm throwing out something that was once an issue for me, but I'm not really sure how to present the idea because I'm only contrasting three orders in my head, and I don't have a lot of wisdom on the topic.
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Frater LR, 93,
Good point. An applicant should at least know what resources are available for guidance.
Maybe a Point 8 would be:
List of questions: Make such a list, and don't be embarrassed to refer to it during an interview.
There are few things worse than an applicant who clams up, and/or forgets what he or she was anxious about on the way to the interview. It makes it harder for the interviewers to know where the person is at, if the discussion dwindles to "Umm..."
93 93/93,
Edward
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93, @Universe, That is perfectly within your rights. I sit more in the middle ground, feeling that a minimum of info could be useful-it would still involve that plunge.