Lineages lineages and more lineages
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Perhaps the level of mentoring allowed? Some orders facilitate mentorship while others don't allow it.
I'm throwing out something that was once an issue for me, but I'm not really sure how to present the idea because I'm only contrasting three orders in my head, and I don't have a lot of wisdom on the topic.
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Frater LR, 93,
Good point. An applicant should at least know what resources are available for guidance.
Maybe a Point 8 would be:
List of questions: Make such a list, and don't be embarrassed to refer to it during an interview.
There are few things worse than an applicant who clams up, and/or forgets what he or she was anxious about on the way to the interview. It makes it harder for the interviewers to know where the person is at, if the discussion dwindles to "Umm..."
93 93/93,
Edward
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93, @Universe, That is perfectly within your rights. I sit more in the middle ground, feeling that a minimum of info could be useful-it would still involve that plunge.
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@Mason, I agree with the heart of your argument, but feel a chunk is irrelevant if the info is applied properly in writing. Write the facts, let others form their own opinions. Rank them? Write of inside ordeals and such? NO! I think you mistake my core intention.I think your numbered ideas are a good start though. My thoughts are not to peddle specific orders, or to reveal their "secrets" or trials. More like a book of info and tips for those searching.
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FiliusBestia, 93,
"My thoughts are not to peddle specific orders, or to reveal their "secrets" or trials. More like a book of info and tips for those searching.
"The difficulty I'm having here is knowing at what level(s) to pitch this. For example, you still get interested people asking us if Thelema is Satanic or a form of demon-worship, since they've not discovered much of the core literature. There are others who are more into it, but are looking to clarify difficult passages of the Book of the Law; and others interested in much deeper aspects of Qabalistic psychology and yogic practices.
It all works a lot easier if we come in with questions based on our own areas of personal anxiety of confusion. In my experience, those key questions often sit on a mother lode of underlying ideas and assumptions. Once the knots in that begin to unravel, then the energy for exploring and expressing the True Will ceases to be held back so much.
I think what I'm trying to say here is: we don't need information so much as we need to establish the foundations of a personal understanding. At that point, part of the mystery begins to come clear for us, and rather than needing to know what goes on in the orders, we know better what we ourselves need to go and do. That's the best possible protection against a negative situation developing, because if things don't gel with our own aspiration, we are going to go and look elsewhere.
93 93/93,
Edward
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What I would want to add is that if anyone bothers to look, there is information on every Thelemic organization that I know of out there. Going onto a forum (any of them, this isn't the only one that I've seen questions of the nature come up) and soliciting for information and crying about not getting a good response only reflects back on your true desire/pull to join a Thelemic organization. There really is plenty of information in the various books/journals/websites out there to give people at least half a clue about the various groups. Just do the work/research - it's out there.
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93 Mr. Mason, I agree. I wonder just how much to involve in it, not to mention the part of personal questions. Too, though, I would think a good chunk of those questions overlap in just what they are asking for. I also think that a book would be useful for dispelling some of the myths of Thelema. I, too, hear far too often the question or atatement on Thelema/Satanism.
Kuniggety, I agree. I did my research before joining what I did, though I still feel as if there is plenty of info that I missed... I think there's more than I found. Let's not forget that not everyone has very good internet access. The things you can find on a cell phone web, and those you can find on a desktop pop up a bit different. Some people just don't know where to start, others just end up with more questions in their searching. Of course, that also comes down to the leap. -
FB 93,
"I also think that a book would be useful for dispelling some of the myths of Thelema. I, too, hear far too often the question or atatement on Thelema/Satanism.
"That book has been written several times, by several writers - Rodney Orpheus and Lon Milo Duquette spring to mind. If we get bothered about what other people think and believe, we'll get nowhere. Their Wills (or reactive patterns built up, over and around those Wills) aren't the issue - only our own Wills count. "Do that, and no other shall say nay." (Liber L, I, 43).
At the end of the day, you could be sitting there with acceptance and intelligent comprehension from your friends and family, in possession of an encyclopedic grasp of the Thelemic Qabalistic systems of the different orders, and their practical curricula, and ... nothing would happen until you made a move.
"If Will stops and asks why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does naught." (II, 30).
93 93/93,
Edward
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93 Mr. Mason,
true on all the above. Once again, it comes to that leap. I still stand that a book, as such as we were originally talking about could be of use, but I also feel that it's... angagement?... is a touchy subject as well. I by no means feel that we should be handing out free rides. The thought of compiled is one that naturally appeals to my type. That is what I do, it is who I am.
"That book has been written several times, by several writers - Rodney Orpheus and Lon Milo Duquette spring to mind."
So i wonder why it is there remains so much misconception. Perhaps the wrong writing styles? Wrong authors appealing to the wrong people? It does not so much bother me peronally. I'm on those people who seeks out info, compiles it, seeks to understand it and pass it on to others. Like I said, it's my nature. That annoys me. I feel, to use Crowley's metaphor, the wrong magickal implements have been used in the wrong form, and are thus not getting the results that are intended. Even Thelemites run around claiming to worship the Dark Lord, and other sensationalist things. Others views not mattering aside, misinformation is as great an enemy as secrecy.
Just some thoughts flitting through this little head of mine. -
FiliusBestia, 93,
"So i wonder why it is there remains so much misconception. Perhaps the wrong writing styles?"
How about looking at the people who see these things in Thelema? If people persist in seeing darkness, it's not very much good explaining they're wrong. They feel empowered or somehow righteous by holding the views they do. This is the folk folly - we have to let it be, and stick to our Thelemic knitting. It will change when it changes.
93 93/93,
Edward
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93 Mr. mason,
In a way I agree. At the same time I don't. That's where i agree to disagree, because it comes down to personal opinion. Perhaps I'm just not experienced enough, and haven't hit enough walls. I'm a stubborn ass anyways. Lol. -
To get back to the OP's question... there really aren't any lineages of the A.'.A.'. for the order is one and every member can trace their line back to Crowley, the head of the Order. Even according to the Book of the Law he is the sole authority on Thelema and the A.'.A.'. As such though there are several broken links in the chain.
Crowley's reference to charlatans in One Star in Sight was in reference to the then recently expelled C.F. Russell who went on to found the Great Brotherhood of God, aka the Choronzon Club, wherein he claimed to be presenting a short cut to initiation. Whether Russell was a charlatan as a magician is not the issue, Crowley was under the belief that Russell was still presenting himself as a representative of the A.'.A.'. and that was the issue.
The broken links I refer to are people who were expelled by Crowley but continued the work or people who were lost in the shuffle when their superior had resigned/been expelled etc. Another factor in this "broken chain" affair is that in a lot of cases most members of the A.'.A.'. never officially passed beyond Probationer, let alone Neophyte or Zelator. In this I am referring to those who held onto the flame of the order following Crowley's death and the disorganization that occurred in the following years under Karl Germer. He was just as lax in his running of the A.'.A.'. as he was the OTO. Even Germer's primary student never technically passed beyond Neophyte, but claimed the Zelator grade shortly before Germer's death. I think the only initiation Germer mentioned outright was Phyllis Seckler's 5=6 status and then that was a reference to being under her HGA's guidance.
So the various "lineages" exist because of the fracturing of the order under leadership that was not ready, nor willing, to bear that responsibility. It was a time where dormancy was probably best as well, cultivating a small group that would bear greater fruit in the next generation when the world might be ready. Germer I think did what was necessary with what he was given.
There are several people out there with legitimate links to the A.'.A.'. in the sense of they signed Oaths & Tasks under people who signed Oaths & Tasks that go back to Crowley but the authority of the A.'.A.'. itself as a formal organization? As a working hierarchy with a direct link to the Secret Chiefs of the order? Well, that is debateable. I have my own opinion on that issue but I tend to keep it to myself. I know who I feel is the head of the Order on the material plane based on what I have seen & read.