Diversity of Thelema
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@Shiva Tseba'oth said
"I fear the day Thelema goes through it's Council of Nicaea."
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I think Magicians can be naturally testy and strong-minded and sometimes get in each other's way. That said, rather than "wishing for unity" I wish people would stop being so petty about personal or pseud-political disputes that they cannot put larger goals before their own egos. I think much division comes from much insecurity along the lines of "i didn't get picked for your team first so I'm leaving". Maybe just my perception. But shouldn't strong-willed individuals be able to put aside (even rather large) differences if the success or failure of Thelema as a movement is at stake? I certainly hope so--and I'm a bitch.
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Thanks for you replies and the Netzach quote was fitting. Yes, I just had this happen today when I tried to share a past life experience and instead of someone getting my meaning, they rather went for the "thanks for keeping it real, Ron."
I don't think Thelema will ever go through its council of Nicea, at least I hope not. Different organizations might attept this.
I feel we've barely scratched the surface of what the Book of the Law means, and to each individual this is intensely personal.
All myths, beliefs, cultural stories shared have value, imo.
I think the whole group dynamic gets caught up in idealology and misses out on the individual a lot of times.
I'll just put it this way:
Which is more important, promulgating thelema or helping an individual find their true will?
I am a big believer in past lives, I also feel someone could choose to cease to exist too, and even undo that at a later time. I think past/present/future and alternative time lines exist simultaenously, and there are still reality tunnels that spring into being anew too.
It would be interesting, like how the Dali Lama is sometimes picked out by the buddhists priests as the reincarnation of a previous Lama, if that would start happening in Thelemic circles. After all Thelema is over 100 years old.
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@Frater Sabaechi said
"I don't think Thelema will ever go through its council of Nicea, at least I hope not. Different organizations might attept this."
Remember that the original Council of Nicea was just one particular organization... Don't underestimate the risk from individual organizations.
"I think the whole group dynamic gets caught up in idealology and misses out on the individual a lot of times. "
Yes. Similarly, the whole individualism dynamic gets caught up in ideology and misses out on the collective a lot of the time.
"Which is more important, promulgating thelema or helping an individual find their true will?"
While this is a false question (meaning, it requires one to buy into an artificial division), I'd actually have to say that the former is more important - because that has the capacity to transform the whole planet. Gradually changing the "baseline" makes it easier for more individuals to make the shift.
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"Which is more important, promulgating thelema or helping an individual find their true will"
Isn't that what Thelema is about? Even in sectarianism, Thelema still takes us a step closer to helping the indivisual find their true will. I'm not saying that it CAN'T become another slave system, and eventually likely will, but the basis of Thelema still comes down to the individual in core principle.
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The desire for all to come together as one religion, or one sect, is unrealistic, ignores individuality, and reveals a subconscious, infantile wish to be parented.
Religion is not God/dess, it is not Deity; it is an institution created by and for certain individuals with certain related interests, values, temperments, i.e. culture. To have a varied and diverse religious, and I might add, political and economic systems, is healthy and conducive to human growth and evolution, individually, which is inherent in the evolution of the species.
How many dishes of chicken and rice are there throughout the world? There is Pacific Islander, Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Afgahn, Persian, Indian, Palistinian, African, Italian, Spanish, Greek, Mexican etc. Some taste better to one than another; some are too spicy for one, too bland for another. Would you want to have one dish, one choice? What about in future lives?
In biology, economics and other sciences, usually diversity is a strength. The Constitution is based on the idea of diverse governing power; would you put the power of religion in one group's hands?
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93, Well, speaking for myself, I said not a thing about patening Thelema under one power. I do believe I said I support a unity , but I do not agree in some canonical format created for all Thelemites and would-be Thelemites.
Too, anyone on this site surely must have some that "infantile" desire for brotherhood. Else you wouldn't be on here. When it comes down to it, it is all up to the individual on whether they choose to become involved in anything, or not.
It is
"unrealistic, ignores individuality, and reveals a subconscious, infantile wish"
to expect all to conform to your idea of what is and is not individual, what the individual chooses to do to conform to your ideas, and to put down any others who do choose to join something... That's all your opinion.Just my opinion...
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"anyone on this site surely must have some that "infantile" desire for brotherhood. Else you wouldn't be on here."
That's an excellent point.
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93,
When this topic comes up, I always detect a subtle desperation. It relates to the fear that somehow a particular Thelemic perspective will be imposed on us: we'll all have to memorize the same chapter of the same Holy Book, or agree on a given interpretation of RSPTOVAL etc. The thing that we need, then, is the realization that no-one but ourselves is going to limit us.
I do think if we view Thelema as an emerging *social *convention, there's a danger. I've always looked askance at people who exhibit a great need to propagate Thelemic philosophy, especially the kind that involves dogmatic libertarianism. That strikes me as the shortest road to the dead hand of imposed rule. I think of it as "The NRA model for social enlightenment," where you raise huge amounts of cash, and then intimidate all your opponents for not supporting total 'freedom.'
If, on the other hand, the goal is capital-E Enlightenment, the possibility of effective networks becomes much more likely.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"93,
When this topic comes up, I always detect a subtle desperation. It relates to the fear that somehow a particular Thelemic perspective will be imposed on us: we'll all have to memorize the same chapter of the same Holy Book, or agree on a given interpretation of RSPTOVAL etc. The thing that we need, then, is the realization that no-one but ourselves is going to limit us.
I do think if we view Thelema as an emerging *social *convention, there's a danger. I've always looked askance at people who exhibit a great need to propagate Thelemic philosophy, especially the kind that involves dogmatic libertarianism. That strikes me as the shortest road to the dead hand of imposed rule. I think of it as "The NRA model for social enlightenment," where you raise huge amounts of cash, and then intimidate all your opponents for not supporting total 'freedom.'
If, on the other hand, the goal is capital-E Enlightenment, the possibility of effective networks becomes much more likely.
93 93/93,
Edward"
93,
You probably would have spent a lot of time looking askance at Crowley then.
""O my Son, in the Promulgation of the Law lieth the Reward of our Chief Work, the making whole of Mankind from the Conscience of Sin which divideth him, and afflicteth his Spirit." -Aleister Crowley, Liber Aleph
"The open preaching of this Law, and the practice of these precepts, will arouse discussion and animosity, and thus place thee upon a rostrum whence thou mayst speak unto the people." -Aleister Crowley, "Liber CCC: Khabs Am Pehkt"
"Note also, pray thee, this word: "The Law is for all." Do not therefore "select suitable persons" in thy worldly wisdom; preach openly the Law to all men.' and 'All those who have accepted the Law should announce the same in daily intercourse. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" shall be the invariable form of greeting. These words, especially in the case of strangers, should be pronounced in a clear, firm, and articulate voice, with the eyes frankly fixed upon the bearer." -Aleister Crowley, "Liber CCC: Khabs Am Pehkt"
"The special tracts written by Us, or authorized by Us, should be distributed to all persons with whom those who have accepted the Law may be in contact." -Aleister Crowley, "Liber CCC: Khabs Am Pehkt""For more such quotes: ararita.org/content/promulgation-law-thelema
93, 93/93
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@FiliusBestia said
"93, Well, speaking for myself, I said not a thing about patening Thelema under one power. I do believe I said I support a unity , but I do not agree in some canonical format created for all Thelemites and would-be Thelemites.
Too, anyone on this site surely must have some that "infantile" desire for brotherhood. Else you wouldn't be on here. When it comes down to it, it is all up to the individual on whether they choose to become involved in anything, or not.
It is
"unrealistic, ignores individuality, and reveals a subconscious, infantile wish"
to expect all to conform to your idea of what is and is not individual, what the individual chooses to do to conform to your ideas, and to put down any others who do choose to join something... That's all your opinion.Just my opinion..."
Hey FiliusBestia, I wasn't commenting directly at you or anyone else, so don't take it too personally. However, I will say that people (including myself) often say things unaware of the consequences of their actions or statements. This is a case in point, unity is unity regardless of what you call it, what power structure is placed on it etc. and my point is that unity is anathema to me; diversity is where our future lies. I've given you an analogy to help illustrate the point, and sited the conclusions that various sciences support as well.
Also, I am highly critical of all propaganda systems, such as Political Correctness that attempt to stifle analytical thinking, or weaken argument. I don't need to preface every post or every statement where I know there might be disagreement with, "in my opinion..." . It's useless, it weakens the argument, it's poor grammar and it is evidence of fear. The best approach is to decide on an argument, apply it with all one's being, and be ready to abandon it for something better. I fail to see the necessity to tie ones self-esteem to how whether the group validates a certain statement as true or not; it is all absurd anyhow. The larger one fails, blunders etc. the larger one learns.
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@Puck
I wouldn't recommend that anyone choose as their motto: "What would Crowley do"...
He had many goals; some failed and some succeeded. It's not incumbent upon any of us to take up the mantle of any of them, unless it's part of our true will. Of course, had you known him personally, I'm sure he would have accepted your money and obedience whether or not it was your true will....
The problem I see, is that nascent religions usually start off with supreme goals of truth and personal development, but inevitably abandon these for more exoteric, tangible goals. In fact, the ability to do so is often the hallmark of a successful religion. The Catholic church has already been brought up in this thread. And I would be wary of any one who would see the Catholic church as an example of success. Because the success seems primarily rooted in power and money.
Of course, this cycle is repeated, and each new group seems to imagine that their "truth" is powerful enough to protect them from the fate of others. But this seems naive to me.
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"@Puck
I wouldn't recommend that anyone choose as their motto: "What would Crowley do"...
He had many goals; some failed and some succeeded. It's not incumbent upon any of us to take up the mantle of any of them, unless it's part of our true will. Of course, had you known him personally, I'm sure he would have accepted your money and obedience whether or not it was your true will....
The problem I see, is that nascent religions usually start off with supreme goals of truth and personal development, but inevitably abandon these for more exoteric, tangible goals. In fact, the ability to do so is often the hallmark of a successful religion. The Catholic church has already been brought up in this thread. And I would be wary of any one who would see the Catholic church as an example of success. Because the success seems primarily rooted in power and money.
Of course, this cycle is repeated, and each new group seems to imagine that their "truth" is powerful enough to protect them from the fate of others. But this seems naive to me."
93,
Success in anything temporal is rooted in power and money.
As far as seeing the Roman Catholic Church as being an example of success...well, it depends on what you mean by success. Success as far as having shaped western civilization seems a check. Success as far as persisting as an institution and worldview for millennia seems a check, too. Sure, they have misused the fruits of their success again and again, from the Crusades to modern molestation issues, but their success as far as actually being able to accomplish what they wish cannot be contested.
If you aren't interested in organized Thelema, that's fine, to each their own.
As far as asking "what would Crowley do"...Crowley attained. He used specific methods to do so. Why would I not pay attention them if my goal is to attain? I pay attention to what all of those who have attained did and consider what they would have done. It's funny how this always seems to apply to magick and spirituality and not something like playing guitar or coding. I suppose this depends on your goals, though. I have no interest in reinventing wheels when not only have others invented perfectly functional ones but they have, in fact, progressed to jets. I wish to accomplish the Great Work, not feed my postmodern, oh-so-cool need to reject the very notion that other people may have known things I do not and that if I didn't invent it myself it is some sort of weakness or concession to weakness. In various other spiritual traditions we see gurus and chelas, masters and apprentices, etc, and in those traditions people actually attain. These oh-so-cool views, some of which stem from American individualism and some from the chaos magick current, simply don't produce the results, at least not for me (I did try, for many years).
93, 93/93
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@Alrah said
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@hepuck said
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Success in anything temporal is rooted in power and money."Just a form of energy. Kept in one place it dissapates and stagnates. Dissapated it holds no force. So you might say that success in anything temporal is an appreciation of the balance between movement and inertia and the skillfull management of energy between these two states.
I think money and power sometimes have very different meanings to women and men."
93
Valid point. I actually argued something similar in a political philosophy paper a few years back. I would be interested in a little more of your thought on the notion of wealth as dynamic exchanges of energy. For example, all wealth, from a physical asset to an intellectual asset, is essentially "stored up" value; however, as you point out, this "storing up" seems to tend towards the dissipation of value at the most and diminishing returns on the invested energy versus the energy recoverable at the least...we are always putting more into wealth than we are getting out of it. However, as Foucault points out, this is because of how we deal with the notion of "security" and stems from some specific changes that happened as feudal societies gave way to merchant economies. This means, or at least I think it means (I am not a thinker of a class with Foucault) that this methodology of wealth is constructed and voluntary, which means we can change it. In what way do you think the notion could be changed to get a more efficient methodology of wealth?
I don't particularly care for money or power as a part of my personal goals. I'm primarily motivated by knowledge and art, and power over others usually leads to responsibility I would rather not have over the lives of others. I mean, c'mon, I studied philosophy in school and I am a writer...if I actually was worried about money I would have made some very different choices. However, without money many, many options aren't available for making choices, and the kind of power I seek is the ability to have and actualize more choices. Insofar as money can get me that, then I think I need it.
93, 93/93
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ThePuck, 93
"You probably would have spent a lot of time looking askance at Crowley then."
Not necessarily. I did say 'doctrinaire libertarianism.' There's a particular variety that I come across a lot that is nowhere near as flexible as Crowley's own thinking. It looks down its nose at those who are not smart enough to appreciate its superiority to all other forms of thinking, then gets nasty when it's challenged.
I'm quite okay being a classic somewhat-leftie anarchist, however.93 93/93,
Edward
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@hepuck said
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"@PuckI
93,Success in anything temporal is rooted in power and money.
As far as seeing the Roman Catholic Church as being an example of success...well, it depends on what you mean by success. Success as far as having shaped western civilization seems a check. Success as far as persisting as an institution and worldview for millennia seems a check, too. Sure, they have misused the fruits of their success again and again, from the Crusades to modern molestation issues, but their success as far as actually being able to accomplish what they wish cannot be contested.
93, 93/93"
Hey thePuck, I agree that success in antyhing temporal is rooted in power in money ( I think Crowley alludes to this in "The Book of Thoth"), what I disagree with is your perspective on this. The Catholic Church is only a success from one perspective, but not from the peoples' perspective whose wealth, money, power, and sons and daughters they stole (I refer all readers to the movie, "The Mission", for a perspective on this). You see, the Church is one arm of a two arm system of colonisation, the other arm being the political/military structure. All roads lead to Rome, at one time the center of all political and religious power in the western world, for one reason and one reason only, to transfer wealth and power from one group, (at the time they were called the country folk, or pagans), to the center or the top, with every one who helps, military officers, religious leaders etc., getting a little slice of the action as their reward for giving up their freedom and enslaving others.
"As far as asking "what would Crowley do"...Crowley attained. He used specific methods to do so. Why would I not pay attention them if my goal is to attain? I pay attention to what all of those who have attained did and consider what they would have done. It's funny how this always seems to apply to magick and spirituality and not something like playing guitar or coding."
"Agreed....
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@hepuck said
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Success in anything temporal is rooted in power and money."As a means, not an ends. It's hard to keep them as a means, both as an individual, and an organization.
@hepuck said
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As far as seeing the Roman Catholic Church as being an example of success...well, it depends on what you mean by success. Success as far as having shaped western civilization seems a check. Success as far as persisting as an institution and worldview for millennia seems a check, too. Sure, they have misused the fruits of their success again and again, from the Crusades to modern molestation issues, but their success as far as actually being able to accomplish what they wish cannot be contested.
"Sure they're a good example of succeeding at their goals. I'm not criticizing someone who says that a Thelemic organization should have goals to work toward. I'm saying that one might want to scrutinize the goals themselves.
@hepuck said
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If you aren't interested in organized Thelema, that's fine, to each their own."You can have organized Thelema without Orthodox Thelema. You can host a potluck without prescribing the dishes people bring too.
@hepuck said
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Why would I not pay attention them if my goal is to attain? I pay attention to what all of those who have attained did and consider what they would have done. It's funny how this always seems to apply to magick and spirituality and not something like playing guitar or coding. I suppose this depends on your goals, though. I have no interest in reinventing wheels when not only have others invented perfectly functional ones but they have, in fact, progressed to jets. I wish to accomplish the Great Work, not feed my postmodern, oh-so-cool need to reject the very notion that other people may have known things I do not and that if I didn't invent it myself it is some sort of weakness or concession to weakness. In various other spiritual traditions we see gurus and chelas, masters and apprentices, etc, and in those traditions people actually attain. These oh-so-cool views, some of which stem from American individualism and some from the chaos magick current, simply don't produce the results, at least not for me (I did try, for many years).
"Here's the thing. I'm not trying to be cooler than anyone else. And we both have the same individual goal: personal attainment. We probably have a similar secondary goal/obligation of wanting to help others also attain, to pay forward the assistance we get from someone else.
That's terrific.
However, having been in a cult myself before, and having devoted much of my life in service (I spent ever weekend from 5 to 23 trying to teach others my "truth", and spent 2 1/2 years slaving for free in a factory to print literature ) I know firsthand how easily an organization's goals can become a substitute for personal goals, and how easily the secondary goals can replace the primary goals. How did the Catholic church spread their culture around the globe? By channeling the devotional energy of their members into physical labor.
Sometimes, an organization will have every intention to help the members attain to their spiritual goals in exchange for some effort toward the group's secondary goals. Sometimes, the organization will deliberately play on a person's individual spiritual yearnings to subvert their energy to their own power and money goals.
In either case, it's simple. Just find out what percentage of members attain to the spiritual stage you wish to attain to, and why.
Finally, if one's primary goal is personal attainment, and an organization's mission statement does not include helping their members reach a level of personal attainment, and one's involvement in said organization is their primary spiritual investment, then some hard thinking would be a good idea.
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"Hey FiliusBestia, I wasn't commenting directly at you or anyone else, so don't take it too personally. However, I will say that people (including myself) often say things unaware of the consequences of their actions or statements."
Nor did I take it expressly personal. More just making a point. There's always two sides to the coin... And yes, I all too often have made the mistake of letting my "alligator mouth outrun my turtle ass," so to say. Lol.
"This is a case in point, unity is unity regardless of what you call it, what power structure is placed on it etc. and my point is that unity is anathema to me; diversity is where our future lies."
That is all you. I see no problem either way. It is a matter of that individuality and diversity of which you speak. Just because I belong to an Order does not make me a patented, cookie cutter Thelemite. The individuals make the organization, the organization does not make the individual...
"Also, I am highly critical of all propaganda systems, such as Political Correctness that attempt to stifle analytical thinking, or weaken argument. "
Agreed.
"I fail to see the necessity to tie ones self-esteem to how whether the group validates a certain statement as true or not; it is all absurd anyhow."
I validate by my own experience. wisdom, knowledge, and learning. I've never heard my superior say that I HAD to accept something because he said so. I also believe Crowley said to even question him, and his own conclusions, not to take him atface value.
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@Alrah said
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It seems as if we're wandering out the door from Thelema and way down the road to something rather more Star Trek. Thelema is such a great system, that there's a temptation to think that we can use Thelemic principles to engender a type of modern utopia of political science and economics - from some type of widespread investment into local and global mechanisms of direct democracy, or through experiments with workers democratics collectives (such as was seen shortly after the fall of the eastern block), and then there are some bartering systems that replaces skills for money, or the micro-economic innovations taking place in India. It's all very superficially exciting, although non of it looks like providing a foundation for a future trekky type society - not the individual carbon footprint idea, or the less popular science fiction theme of the information economy, and we have other rather more sinister concerns that take precidence right now...Right where we are now - it looks like we are at the foothills of a resource war. If you examine the long term political trends and ignore the bs excuses the populace has been given for recent wars (that have allowed the west to reinvest in the army - the UK forces growing by 400% (for instance) by waging war on the cheap to maintain financial dominance) - you can see a clear correlation between preperations for a world war and the time that resources become ultra scarce. You can even see political adjustments occuring as new resources are found to be exploited. What the human race desperately needs is to work together in the same way that we collaborated on the human geonome project - wasting less resources playing prisoners dilema (or whatever - it's been ages since I studied the games) and getting every university and private/public research lab in the world working on developing a source of free energy.
Maybe when we've solved ww3, then we'll have time to focus on political and financial utopia, but not until energy as a resource is made an open system. If there was ever a time for people to get politicised over this issue it is now, and it's precisely for that reason that NOBODY is taking about it. It's a non issue, because the powers that be like nice easy to control sleeping sheep. Its not thier {shagging} planet however."
93,
Well, I am not so much talking about a Thelemic take on wealth, or even a utopian "star trek" one. Just one that addresses the issue of how the storing up and exchange of value in the form of wealth is inefficient and creates a structure for behaviors which is untenable.
Foucault was a modern continental philosopher who died in the 80s and said some very interesting things about power and security. Some of those things included theories about the relation of how value is stored up as wealth, and especially how that value is allowed to move and change forms through a society. He talked about how power never exists in a person or group; instead it exists in the relations between people and groups that allow possibilities for behavior. Some things are existentially unavailable to us as choices not because of who we are but how we are able to relate. A good analogy is that of chess: the pieces have no power or ability outside of the rules of the game and their arrangement on the board. So the secret, according to Foucault, to causing change is to change the modes of interaction, the structures of possible behaviors available to people.
While I agree with some of your direful observations, I don't think global cooperation on any issue is likely, nor do I think it is desirable. Any non-catastrophic "reform" of current structures will still carry the assumptions of the old structures with it. We can't expect that any model of the world that still has concepts like nations, corporations, employment relations, life predicated on economic considerations, etc, etc, etc. to really be any better, and I would argue that we don't even have the real ability to know what better would look like...we are just as defined by our position in the system as anyone else and our ability to see or conceive of things is similarly defined. The current tensions will most likely lead to more and more conflicts over resources, sure, but the problem is not conflict or the resources but how we, as a species, use and distribute our resources. Unless we abandon the modern cults of the dollar, whether the prophet be Marx, Smith, or Keynes, then whatever the root of the value stored up in wealth, it will create the exact same possibilities for behavior.
Let us say a technology for free energy is invented. Immediately there would be a refusal by whoever developed it to just give it away...governments, companies, etc would have to pay for the rights to use it. Whoever had the ability to pay would have limitless energy reserves, while those nations, companies, and individuals who did not would have to keep...well, burning things mostly. This would lead to new conflicts and yet more disparity in standard of living between the "haves" and "have-nots", in turn leading to empire, war, crime, and so on, at the various levels of interaction. So long as the underlying structure, the one built on the exchange of wealth in markets, remains, the problem remains that even given the best of technology and resources, people will then hoard, sell, rent, and fight over those resources.
So, in my opinion, the problem is not one of energy or technology. It's not one of the environment. It's one of seeing the world and the people in it as economic units, regardless of how your particular theory says those economic units should interact. The notion of wealth itself, as the storing up of value, needs to change to be made more efficient and to remove the notion of economic competition. As is, every exchange that is not barter is theft...someone gets more out of the exchange of wealth than they put into it. Just distributing this theft around doesn't help, because the very possibilities for behavior force an underclass, who is never collecting a "profit" for their exchanges of wealth (how much profit is the average minimum-wage worker making on their investment of time and energy? I would say they are taking a loss). So long as this underclass exists, the roots of conflict are built into the society.
Note I am not advocating communism or socialism, either. I am condemning, across the board, any and all views that cut up the units of society using economic principles. We made up the notion of wealth, we made up the notions of economics (regardless of school of thought), and thus they are inherently voluntary. It wasn't always like this and it doesn't have to stay like this. However, I don't think a reform is possible. There must be a collapse, a great "turning away" from the concepts of economics, before a new mode of existence can be conceived. People will need to come to revile the cutting up of society and people into economic units and dynamics, similarly to the response to artificial intelligence in the storyline of Dune...it must be seen that the human race made a mistake that led to its near extinction and that mistake must be enshrined as a great boogeyman. As the people in Dune had the commandment "thou shalt not make a machine in imitation of a human mind" the humans of the future must have a commandment of "thou shalt not make of thyself or thy fellows a commodity".
Thank you for your thoughts on the subject, I found them interesting.
93, 93/93
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@Alrah said
"Imagine a world where you plugged your free energy device into the wall socket instead of getting it from an industrial source...
I'm pondering the rest for the time being.
Cheers."
93,
But someone would still have to build and service those devices. So long as that was a private company, the problem remains...those who are favored and can pay get free energy, those who can't do not. "Free energy" won't be free because the technology to create/reap/whatever it won't be free.
93, 93/93