Northern European Magick based on Chaos Magick?
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Ok, regarding what Edred Thorsson saise on the topic of chaos magick being related to or if not itself seidhr and the norse tree of life is as follows from a quote Don Webb's interview with Edred Thorsson: (Mr. E being Edred)
fwr: What is the cosmological model which Seidhr presupposes? Chaos Magickians represent the relationship between the ego-portion of the psyche and the rest of the Cosmos with a circle with eight arrows bursting forth -- an image copied from the fantasy works of Michael Moorcock. Do you suspect the resonance of this symbol to be a remanifestation of Seidhr practices?
Mr E: Yes, the symbol itself seems to be a noumenal atavism of the common Germanic cosmological map which is centered on the "earth" (or ego) and which radiates out in a total of eight "directions", only six of which can even by symbolically "located" in three-dimensional space. The other two -- Hel (the Realm of the Dead) and Asgard (the Realm of the Gods and Heroes of Awakened Intelligence) -- exist in hyper-space at acute angles to all the other axes of the map simultaneously. The cosmological model that is presupposed is that Ginnung is present in everything. The German scientist Karl Reichenbach coined the term "Odic Force" -- named after the Norse God Odin -- to represent this substance.
full interview here : www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/edred.html
With that said, and the old Norse tree of life pretty much representing the 8 pointed star of chaos, especially with the ego in the center, i wander what relation it has with the celtic model? upper world, middle world, and lower world, with the middle world (ego) in the center, wtf???
either northern european magick/celtic magick was all based on earlier models of chaos magick, or i dont know the second one
funny note: ive ran into alot of pagans who discard chaos magick and the LHP and use the celtic cosmological model with lots of light and fairy's and would probly scream in such belief of a relation lol. thoughts anyone?
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A couple of things you may want to consider:
The 8-fold star is hardly Chaos-distinctive nor modern. It is one of the oldest, deepest symbol sets in the history of Western civilization in particular and, somewhat, Eastern (consider the number of key "8s" in the East). In particular, the Aurum Solis has built their entire initiatory and magical system on tracings of the Ogdoadic tradition reaching at least a millennium back. (Google "Ogdoadic" and do some broad reading, especially on A.'.S.'. stuff.)
The second point is that, no, the old magicks you speak of aren't based on "earlier models of chaos magick" - or, perhaps, how I should say it is: What in the world do you mean by "earlier models of chaos magick"? Chaos magick is a late 20th century model (I use the word model thinking that I'm being excessively kind and, at the same time, should be rousing the objections of every true Chaotic). It might be more profitable, instead of wrapping this under a heading of Chaos Magick, if you would enumerate three or four (or whatever) specific elements or characteristics which you think overlap between the two systems. (This allows others to discuss your observations without worrying about whether it meets their individual definitions of CM.)
Seriously, to say that old Northern European forms of magick are based on Chaos Magick is like saying original means of cattle farming and butcher were founded on current employee work schedules at McDonalds.
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lol, was afraid you might do that, but you are right.
ok let me answer the second one before the first, got a busy day ahead of me so i dont have the time at the moment to research the first one, but i feal i could give some elements on the subject with what i do know.ok first
"With that said, and the old Norse tree of life pretty much representing the 8 pointed star of chaos, especially with the ego in the center, i wander what relation it has with the celtic model? upper world, middle world, and lower world, with the middle world (ego) in the center, wtf??? "
"unny note: ive ran into alot of pagans who discard chaos magick and the LHP and use the celtic cosmological model with lots of light and fairy's and would probly scream in such belief of a relation lol. thoughts anyone?"
and in relation to what you said
" It might be more profitable, instead of wrapping this under a heading of Chaos Magick, if you would enumerate three or four (or whatever) specific elements or characteristics which you think overlap between the two systems. (This allows others to discuss your observations without worrying about whether it meets their individual definitions of CM.)"
ok first let me cover a basis, from what ive been reading from Edred Throssons material, ( founder and Yrmin-Drighten of the Rune-Gild, Grandmaster of the Order of the Trapezoid of the Temple of Set, and one of the original Asatru and northern european reconstructionist's ). he talks about seidhr practices of the old germanic peaple, which was usualy practiced by the females and the warriors would frown upond a male practicing it, it is closley related so shamanism and the communication of spirits and working with them and what not in a broad sense.
i would suggest you read the whole interview in the link provided ( if you haven't already, if so then cool ) to give an idea of the some of the specific elements in relation of CM and seidhr. and i believe his definition of CM comes from his practices in the temple of set, being based around the ego, earth, malkuth, midgard, middle world, set (god of agriculture, and in Thelemic practices is (The God Set Fighting)). The relation and key element is the ego being the center, represented by the element earth, in three cosmological maps:
The Celtic : Middle World
Germanic or Teutonic : Midgard
Setian CM : center of the 8 pointed star
I am looking at the common placement of the ego in the center, compared to the Quabalistical tree with Thipareth reprsented by the son, and the number 6, which reprsents man, correct me if im wrong though, and with the distruction of the ego to reach ones self and connecting with Thipareth. Like the druids goal of conquering the sun in all its aspects.from my understanding a seidhr person, or rune magician, is relating to sorcergy and the term magician or wizard, in the context of using symbols to unlock power within to manifest ones will. IMO one using the power from within relates to "
Chaos magicians represent the relationship between the ego-portion of the psyche and the rest of the Cosmos" correct me if i wrong."
The second point is that, no, the old magicks you speak of aren't based on "earlier models of chaos magick"
"ok, wrong terminology on my part, and actually bassacwards on my part, here is a longer quote from the interview that give details on how the to systems overlap and as CM being a remanifestation of seidhr :
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fwr: What is Seidhr and how is it connected to the idea of Chaos?Mr E: Now it is generally imagined that Seidhr is a kind of evil magic practiced by Norse shamans -- especially female ones. Indeed, Seidhr is an ancient form of magic practiced by the Scandinavian peoples at least since the Viking Age. Seidhr is generally connected with the Gods and Goddesses, called the Vanir, and especially with Freyja, whose name is really the title "Lady".
Seidhr is also generally contrasted with another word for "magic" in the Northern tongue: Galdr. Seidhr is connected to the concept of "Chaos" in the sense that the theory upon which Seidhr works is very similar to that upon which Chaos Magic works. Both are based on a materialistic paradigm -- what Peter Carroll calls "Ether" and the ancient Germanic peoples called Ginnung, or Chaos. This paradigm is, by the way, to be contrasted with the essentially symbolic theory underlying Galdr -- a theory which is semiotic and linguistic in character, not substance-based. The underlying theory of Seidhr is pretty much the same as "the magical paradigm" described by Carroll in his Liber Kaos. However, that general theory does not account for Galdr, which is independent of the flows of the time/space continuum.
fwr: What is the cosmological model which Seidhr presupposes? Chaos Magickians represent the relationship between the ego-portion of the psyche and the rest of the Cosmos with a circle with eight arrows bursting forth -- an image copied from the fantasy works of Michael Moorcock. Do you suspect the resonance of this symbol to be a remanifestation of Seidhr practices?
Mr E: Yes, the symbol itself seems to be a noumenal atavism of the common Germanic cosmological map which is centered on the "earth" (or ego) and which radiates out in a total of eight "directions", only six of which can even by symbolically "located" in three-dimensional space. The other two -- Hel (the Realm of the Dead) and Asgard (the Realm of the Gods and Heroes of Awakened Intelligence) -- exist in hyper-space at acute angles to all the other axes of the map simultaneously. The cosmological model that is presupposed is that Ginnung is present in everything. The German scientist Karl Reichenbach coined the term "Odic Force" -- named after the Norse God Odin -- to represent this substance.
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ok now with CM overlapping the Germanic Seidhr and its cosmological maps and the definition of seidhr as CM being a remanifestation of Seidhr, which the German tree of life is of course part of Asatru and teutonic heathenism, and chaos heathenism.
now how does it relate to for lack of a better term common witchcraft or wicca and the celtic tree of life as being based on CM or Germanic Seidhr models , as explained in Mr. E's book Northern Magick he explain the roots and origins of wicca and witchcraft, and celtic magick to be from Germanic influence, for example through etimology ther term wicca, came from wicci (or sometimes spelled wicce) which comes from the Germanic vikti, meaning magician.
The common Evocation of (the Lord and Lady) originates from frey and freya in the Nordic Vanir.
And the common placment among the three cosmological models of the earth, ego, in the center, like in the common celtic model, middle world.with the right definition of CM, as a remanifestation of Seidhr, with the roots of wicca or witchcraft being from Germanic influence, would be right to say they do relate, and European Magick per se having originated from a CM model?
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Edred was commenting that aspects of contemporary Chaos Magic have conceptual and practical resonances with what was called Seidr among Northern European groups. No other connection between these practices were being made.
Celtic material does not have its roots in the Germanic material, though the Anglo-Saxon lines of witchcraft do, Anglo-Saxons being Germanic people and all. This particular topic is the backbone of Edred's book The Witchdom of the True which deals with the Anglo-Saxon practices associated with the Wanes, the primary gods of the natural world.
The only material related to the Celtic cultural practices Edred has produced was a work titled The Book of Ogham. This book has since been reworked by a fellow named Michael Kelly and is worth a read if you have an interest in such things.