LOVE under will????
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I'm always intrigued and etnertained, when this question comes up, how the conversation (in PC-like fashion) persists in saying that "under" doesn't mean "secondary to" etc. This persistence is sometimes direct, sometimes indirect.
But that's the simplest, most direct reading of the words, which might be rendered: Love subservient to Will. Most neutrally is could be understood as, "Love in alignment with Will," even though that's a more divergent paraphrase.
Goodness knows, not every passage in Liber L. is straightforward and uncomplicated in its syntax; but I think we need to initially approach each passage looking for the simplest meaning of the words.
Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, but who calls us Agapaists will likely cause folks to think we're Christians.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, but who calls us Agapaists will likely cause folks to think we're Christians.
"Frankly, I see no difference between Crowley’s concept of True Will, which is grounded in the Father Chokmah, and Biblical scriptures such as:
Matthew 6:9-10:
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.New Aeon, same law...
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yes... thou child, thy reign is come thy will is done...
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I've always taken "love under will" to mean that Love is an hypostasis of Will. So in a sense they are the same in that they are in hypostatic union, but they are not simply synonyms.
An analogy would be the relationship in much Christian theology between any one person of the Trinity and the Godhead. Christ (or the Father, or the Holy Spirit) is an hypostasis of the Godhead. In a sense they are identical, but they are clearly not synonyms, and the Godhead is also in a sense the higher principle. So we might say that Christ is "under" the Godhead.
We should not make the mistake of treating Love as the ultimate principal, for in doing that we would not know it's essential nature, but at the same time, we must remember that Love participates fully in Will, and is not inferior to it. If this sounds like a paradox, it is, in a sense, but that is the mystery (just as the nature of the Trinity is one of the great Christian mysteries).
That's how I think about it anyways...
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93 all
Maybe I am misunderstanding the "under" part too, but the line speaks to me as if it was Direction on how to Love.
When you Love, Love under Will.
In other words let Will guide you. The most I hear average people say they love is possessions or music or movies or drugs. "...balanced by weak joys.."
How often does the term True Love appear anyway?93 93/93
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For me, "Love is the law" refers to an absolute concept - that every manifestation follows the analogy of the love of Chockmah and Binah - connected on the Tree by Daleth, the Empress.
"Love under will" makes me think of Netzach and Geburah - Netzach properly coming after Geburah in the order of manifestation. "Love under will" is Netzach balanced by Geburah in Tiphareth.
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What the heck, might as well toss my 2c in, FWIW
"Love is the law" = no matter what you do, you will love anyway.
So how do you choose whom or what to love?
On the most basic, sexual level, "love under will" is shorthand for: only have sex with people to whom you have a strong, *energetic *attraction, and with whom the attraction is mutual and passionate.
To highlight what's meant: you may be a heterosexual, but suddenly one day you have an intense attraction to a member of the same sex who is also attracted to you. You may normally go for fat, ugly, dirty girls, but suddenly one day the proximity of this thin, beautiful, clean girl who sidles up to you drives you wild.
The True Will may *sometimes *(not always, of course, but sometimes, and this sometimes-ness is what gives the game away) cross your normal aesthetic, sexual categories that you've built up in the course of your life.
The mark is urgency and passion, intensity, total physiological response - and that it's mutual.
The mutuality bit is exceedingly important, it's what means the situation is "under will" - sc. the will of the Universe, God's will, your True Will, however it might be put. It takes two to tango, and those two are one, God meeting God - that being the case, all such meetings should be at God's behest, not the behest of your tiny mind.
And of course on the more general levels, it means take the "next step" in experience. Whatever is logical (Logos), whatever draws you, fires you up, etc., etc., **and that also gets a response from the Universe (e.g. you may think you're a painter, but it turns out nobody likes your paintings - you might make a better contribution to the Universe by making pottery or selling insurance. OTOH, you might be ahead of your time and your true audience not yet formed. Unfortunately it isn't always easy to tell, but at least you must try.)
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"And of course on the more general levels, it means take the "next step" in experience. Whatever is logical (Logos), whatever draws you, fires you up, etc., etc., ***and that also gets a response from the Universe ***"
Thank you for that. Gonna chew on that one for a bit...
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I could also see it as this.
Will 93
Love 93Love under will.
The division of 93/93 results in 1.
So really none is inferior superior than the other?
a unity ?
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@AquarianRenegade said
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How can one define LOVE? "I think of it like this: love is raw force, raw energy, that isn't necessarily "nice", it's only "nice" when it's "under will" - i.e. channelled in service to the Divine in you (the point where you are in sync with the Universe to the extent that your every move is a move of the Universe). Otherwise, it's mere desire, with all its attendant troubles (such as the Buddha, but thousands of others too, have outlined).
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Without Will; Love is nothing.
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I love those who oppress me. This love has some intensity, as they are luring, and I do not have will over it. Consider someone loving to put his hand on a hot stove.
If I may, this law could well be contemplated upon what I have talked about, psychic vampirism. It has been called the most vicious thing there is. Well it is vicious. A psychic vampire implements what may be called honey death. You do feel good with him (/her), although he is destroying you, energetically, and psychologically. And often, the more he is destroying you, the better you feel. And, what is he doing exactly, he is exactly breaking this law, love UNDER will, from you, and you won't see it. By the way, how often is it with men undermining the will of women. I think this is exactly why it may be hard for many to understand this law, love under will, as we are so accustomed to the way that love is to be abused. This may perhaps be more with women, but of course it is also cultural.
But about psychic vampirism: why won't one acknowledge the situation? Because of three illusory emotions: safety, control and guilt. Guilt may be the more powerful of the three. A vampire puts one or all of these to you. You'll feel guilty of what he's doing to you. That's of course universal of abuse, be it incest, war, beating, parental alcoholism or such so on. And yes, you'll feel safe and in control, although the situation is opposite. But what is happening behind the illusion, is that you're loving or liking someone without the control of your own will. This is the most tragic thing as far as I can see.
More often do you see someone with too much love than with too much will, this may also be put into consideration.
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@Vlad said
"I love those who oppress me. This love has some intensity, as they are luring, and I do not have will over it. Consider someone loving to put his hand on a hot stove. "
There is something called "obsession" (in the psychological sense) that many mistake for love. This is love over one's will, wouldn't you say?
I have a love for good and fine wines. If I did not have will over this, I would probably end up on skid row drinking Thunderbird. (lol)
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"The sun. Sun compels me to paint. I can't waste my time talking to you"
Vincent Van Gogh (played by Martin Scorsese) in Akira Kurosawa's Dreams
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@Takamba said
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@Vlad said
"I love those who oppress me. This love has some intensity, as they are luring, and I do not have will over it. Consider someone loving to put his hand on a hot stove. "There is something called "obsession" (in the psychological sense) that many mistake for love. This is love over one's will, wouldn't you say?"
Yes. And then there is a thing called possession also. And there one may find the most luring emotion of love. -
Looking at the more simple meaning of the phrase, Franz Bardon said something to the effect of love under will in "Initiation into the Hermetics". He said something like "love is love, but only under a strong will". It was somewhere in his chapters warning people not to fall prey to astral entities or not to start obsessing over spirits one invokes.
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Didn't Crowley explain this in LAW IS FOR ALL as Love being under the direction of conscious will? Or am I recalling incorrectly?
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@DavidH said
"Didn't Crowley explain this in LAW IS FOR ALL as Love being under the direction of conscious will? Or am I recalling incorrectly?"
I am in agreement with you on that one. I could look it up (a wonderfully full index it has), but I'll just simply agree because i already agree. It's just that sometimes I think some people perceive the "under" like they would perceive a hierarchy of greater than vs lesser than, and of course - sometimes the rebellious set - that can stick in the craw of some. So I'm no longer surprised when this topic comes up.
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Love is the law, love under will.
This verse often brings to my mind an image of the Supernal Triad of the Tree of Life. If we look at the Tree of Life we can see the top three spheres forming a triangle, Atu 3 (symbolizing Divine Love) forms the base under the apex of Kether (The Primal Will)...love under will.
Also, one of the Affirmations in "The Pattern on the Trestleboard" tells us;
"Living from that Will, supported by its unfailing Wisdom and Understanding, mine is the Victorious Life."
Supported implies something being "under" in order to provide Support. It tells us we are supported by unfailing Wisdom and Understanding. Once again we have here Key 3, The Empress (Divine Love) as it is the connecting Pathway between Chokmah and Binah, Wisdom and Understanding. Once again, "love under will" which if followed as a Pattern for Life makes us Victorious.
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Under Will does not mean "in action".
It means under as in I serve under the master.
Love is universal, limitless and continuous, it is the tendency to Nuit.
Will is limiting, restricting, focusing, it is the power attributed to Hadit.This Love is the law, = the Law is to expand oneself and grow, to unite with the world in order to experience.
Love under WILL = The expansion is limited to your discrete nature, you unite with what is proper to you, at a given time and place. Love must be an expression of who you are as a discrete entity, the manifestation of your true name. Thus under the Rule or WILL.