SDRAWKCAB
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@Tesla said
"Anyway the big conundrum for me is when i think of conscious experience of anti-time, I mean how does a consciousness make a decision backwards? In a world where "effect" precedes "cause" from a linear standpoint,how does one "conceive" backwards?"
What we call the "forward" flow of time is linked, in the physical universe, to entropy. From the Big Bang, all parts of the universe move "forward" from a state of lesser complexity to one of greater complexity. ("Forward" is the direction we choose to call it.) Our brains, in perceiving this, also move from a state of lesser complexity to one of greater complexity: The experience itself alters the brain by (among other processes) the tracing of the expperience.
To literally move in the "backwards" direction of time in the physical universe would require, among other things, the moving of our brain from a more complex to a less complex state: This would delete the trace of the experience.
This limitation doesn't appear to exist outside of the physical universe; but within the physical universe, it is a molecular-level change.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Tesla said
"Anyway the big conundrum for me is when i think of conscious experience of anti-time, I mean how does a consciousness make a decision backwards? In a world where "effect" precedes "cause" from a linear standpoint,how does one "conceive" backwards?"What we call the "forward" flow of time is linked, in the physical universe, to entropy. From the Big Bang, all parts of the universe move "forward" from a state of lesser complexity to one of greater complexity. ("Forward" is the direction we choose to call it.) Our brains, in perceiving this, also move from a state of lesser complexity to one of greater complexity: The experience itself alters the brain by (among other processes) the tracing of the expperience.To literally move in the "backwards" direction of time in the physical universe would require, among other things, the moving of our brain from a more complex to a less complex state: This would delete the trace of the experience. "
Thanks for that Jim, it is definitely a valid consideration however there are emerging theories that offer better explanation than the big bang, like an electric universe with instantaneous manifestations across time and space, and since an expanding universe is the precondition for entropy, what if the universe is not expanding physically? and not only Newton's even Einstein's concepts of gravity and "space-time" seem most likely to be off the mark, what is the evidence we are only moving towards more complexity all over the physical universe? this is an assumption. further you do not distinguish between brain and mind, there are no evidence of memories stored in the brain, memories appear to be "field" related likewise the mind itself, perhaps there are instances from a state of more complexity to a state of less complexity; arguably , in the human world this definitely seems to be the case, with old age resembling infancy in many ways, a human peaks in mid-life usually, the pattern could very well be cyclic such that there are alternating highs and lows of greater and lesser complexity over different time periods, with lack of light of other evidence we may have to observe the universe for a billion years to be sure, we are making assumptions based on the assumptions of others.
"This limitation doesn't appear to exist outside of the physical universe; but within the physical universe, it is a molecular-level change."
a molecular level change does not explain memory, can you show me where a molecular level change has been shown to be the evidence for memory, I would like to see it thanks!
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@Tesla said
"since an expanding universe is the precondition for entropy, what if the universe is not expanding physically?"
There is, of course, the small matter of red shift ;D
"what is the evidence we are only moving towards more complexity all over the physical universe? this is an assumption."
I'm advised by those far better trained than I that this is a specific characteristic of entropy (and observable).
"further you do not distinguish between brain and mind, there are no evidence of memories stored in the brain"
Regardless of that, I did distinguish between what is so in the physical universe, and what is not necessarily so outside the physical universe. Is this, perhaps, where you're going? - But there are, in any case, changes made in the brain as memories are formed, and the removal of the portion of the brain where these changes are made will cause the loss of those memories (or, in an alternate theory, loss of access to them).
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Tesla said
"since an expanding universe is the precondition for entropy, what if the universe is not expanding physically?"There is, of course, the small matter of red shift ;D"
Itself in question these days.
hypography.com/forums/strange-claims-forum/17317-red-shift-theory.html
Also, some interpretations of M Theory would have us see the universe as not expanding as such, just unfolding into 3 dimensions caused by our local brane colliding with another brane.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Tesla said
"since an expanding universe is the precondition for entropy, what if the universe is not expanding physically?"There is, of course, the small matter of red shift ;D"
redshift, as all other "facts" is explainable in other ways; these are two examples
www.holoscience.com/synopsis.php?page=4
journalofcosmology.com/HunterCosmology.pdf
"
"what is the evidence we are only moving towards more complexity all over the physical universe? this is an assumption."I'm advised by those far better trained than I that this is a specific characteristic of entropy (and observable)."
does someone else's qualifications or training constitute an authority over God given reason? does a couple hundred years of passed down one to another[a lot of times cumbersome to fit together] theory constitute a monopoly that demands suppressing any further investigation ? established views have been wrong before and later revised.
www.thefinaltheory.com/images/TheFinalTheory_SecondEdition_Chapter1.pdf
"
"further you do not distinguish between brain and mind, there are no evidence of memories stored in the brain"Regardless of that, I did distinguish between what is so in the physical universe, and what is not necessarily so outside the physical universe. Is this, perhaps, where you're going? - But there are, in any case, changes made in the brain as memories are formed, and the removal of the portion of the brain where these changes are made will cause the loss of those memories (or, in an alternate theory, loss of access to them)."
is it possible for you to give me a link to where i might find this information you cite ? there may be alternate interpretations or conclusions derivable from the facts presented
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@Tesla said
" and space, and since an expanding universe is the precondition for entropy, what if the universe is not expanding physically?"
Umm, whatever our views on the nature of the universe and its beginning, entropy has been observed. When you drop a droplet of ink into a glass of water and it colours the entire glass evenly you are observing entropy.
"what is the evidence we are only moving towards more complexity all over the physical universe? this is an assumption"
Entropy can be nicely described as chaos/disorder. When the droplet of ink expands in the glass of water, or a canister of pressurized gas is opened in a vacuum, the inevitable happens. If you believe this to be an assumption you can put entropy to the test in hundreds of ways in your own home.
"the pattern could very well be cyclic such that there are alternating highs and lows of greater and lesser complexity over different time periods"
Not really, no. Entropy can be seen as caused by statistics, well more like probability. If you accept a thought experiment of a canister of gas in a vacuum, I can show you. Take a vacuum and a coke can full of pressurized air.
Open the coke can. There is no physical law forcing the air to leave the coke can. In fact the molecules can bounce around nicely without ever leaving the opening. But it is probable that eventually a molecule will bounce into the direction of the opening and leave and begin whizzing around the vacuum. It is also probable that many more will do so. All buzzing around in relatively random directions. What we will observe in reality is the gas leaving the can really fast and not coming back in. But there is a probability that all of the molecules will spontaneously head back into the direction of the can opening and go back into the can. The provability is exceptionally tiny, so small that the event will never occur in the history of the universe. But even if it does, since it can, it will only be a small fluctuation in the ever greater rise of disorder. So what I'm trying to say is all the laws are in place and evident, and they say that the pattern is not cyclic. Do you have reason to believe the pattern is cyclic? -
@Tesla said
"My thought experiments into explorations of alternate time-lines have led me to the point that i have become obsessed with everything backwards "
When you get to AD 51 let us know. I always loved the idea of Dicks essay:
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@Tesla said
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"what is the evidence we are only moving towards more complexity all over the physical universe? this is an assumption."I'm advised by those far better trained than I that this is a specific characteristic of entropy (and observable)."
does someone else's qualifications or training constitute an authority over God given reason?"
That's such a silly question, with so many logical flaws, that I don't know where to begin on a quick answer. Perhaps I'll content myself with saying that you're making up things I never said, and then reacting to them.
Clearly there is no need to answer you in the future since you aren't asking sincere questions."is it possible for you to give me a link to where i might find this information you cite ? there may be alternate interpretations or conclusions derivable from the facts presented
"One can always make up alternate explanations. It's called science fiction. That's quite different from consulting the collective framing of an entire field of scientific professionals dedicating their entire lives to a subject.
But to answer your specific question: No, I'm not going to stop and go through my library and compile notes on the last 15-20 years of neurological reasearch.
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@Andrey said
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@Tesla said
" and space, and since an expanding universe is the precondition for entropy, what if the universe is not expanding physically?"Umm, whatever our views on the nature of the universe and its beginning, entropy has been observed. When you drop a droplet of ink into a glass of water and it colours the entire glass evenly you are observing entropy."
I understnd what you are saying but how do we know that the same thing would happen if i performed a similar experiment on even such a near neighbor as Jupiter , I know it seems obvious but no one has ever gone to Jupiter and actually performed the experiment, there may be unknown factors, we do not really know the actual size of the uiverse, we only speculate, there may be somewhere light years away that this phenomenon is reversed. cosmology is the least understood of all sciences.
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"what is the evidence we are only moving towards more complexity all over the physical universe? this is an assumption"Entropy can be nicely described as chaos/disorder. When the droplet of ink expands in the glass of water, or a canister of pressurized gas is opened in a vacuum, the inevitable happens. If you believe this to be an assumption you can put entropy to the test in hundreds of ways in your own home."
let me paraphrase AC for a minute here, if one were to try to use a map of the North Pole to try to navigate the whole of planet earth one would have failed before one had begun. the assumptions come when one generalizes from far too few specifics. Entropy is observable here on earth no doubt, but to extend that theory to the whole of the universe requires other theories such as a "finite" universe, and an "expanding universe" for if the universe were contracting presumptively the opposite effect would occur so this leads us back to square one the "big bang"
"the pattern could very well be cyclic such that there are alternating highs and lows of greater and lesser complexity over different time periods"
"Not really, no. Entropy can be seen as caused by statistics, well more like probability. If you accept a thought experiment of a canister of gas in a vacuum, I can show you. Take a vacuum and a coke can full of pressurized air.
Open the coke can. There is no physical law forcing the air to leave the coke can. In fact the molecules can bounce around nicely without ever leaving the opening. But it is probable that eventually a molecule will bounce into the direction of the opening and leave and begin whizzing around the vacuum. It is also probable that many more will do so. All buzzing around in relatively random directions. What we will observe in reality is the gas leaving the can really fast and not coming back in. But there is a probability that all of the molecules will spontaneously head back into the direction of the can opening and go back into the can. The provability is exceptionally tiny, so small that the event will never occur in the history of the universe. But even if it does, since it can, it will only be a small fluctuation in the ever greater rise of disorder. So what I'm trying to say is all the laws are in place and evident, and they say that the pattern is not cyclic. Do you have reason to believe the pattern is cyclic?"A lot of the examples you gave involved the conscious interference with nature of a conscious entity, namely "man', nature tends to be in equilibrium usually, this effect has been noted in ecology, when ecosystems are well balanced they maintain pretty consistent populations of inhabitants with relatively balanced births and deaths except in the case of man who multiples like a virus. then moreover All manifestations of "Time'" seem to be cyclic, Days/Nights, Lunar months, Seasons, Years, Aeons, etc even abstract man made ones[weeks], what to me is in question is just the "time scale" it may take a billion years for entropy to reverse[or not] as no one can unequivocally predict what type of changes will take place within that time, if Einstein is to be believed as far as his general relativity[and he's probably not] then if one traveled faster than light one might move forwards or backwards in time, so large distances galaxies could very well be associated with time travel, it is this very idea that gives scientist the impression that they can see billions of years into the past at the extremes of the observable universe. if we are to believe Einstein as to his special relativity equation of e=mc^2 then all mass is convertible to energy, and Nikola Tesla the man who lit the world by giving us alternating current, believed all energies are cyclic. even if it takes the whole of the universe to be destroyed and recreated, that is still a cycle, yet if you hold a parallel universe/ multiverse conception there are still more possibilities. there are mathematical models now for this "disorder" you speak as complex dynamical systems and even some of the proponents such as Ralph Abraham speculate that the observable states may be cyclic in a bifurcating dynamical system
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Tesla said
"
"what is the evidence we are only moving towards more complexity all over the physical universe? this is an assumption."I'm advised by those far better trained than I that this is a specific characteristic of entropy (and observable)."
does someone else's qualifications or training constitute an authority over God given reason?"
"That's such a silly question, with so many logical flaws, that I don't know where to begin on a quick answer. Perhaps I'll content myself with saying that you're making up things I never said, and then reacting to them.
Clearly there is no need to answer you in the future since you aren't asking sincere questions."you are quick to judge me Mr.Eshelman, the point is what does their training have to do with me? Unless i am supposed to take the their training as an Authority over common sense,and as a substitute for logic in presenting an argument??
"
"is it possible for you to give me a link to where i might find this information you cite ? there may be alternate interpretations or conclusions derivable from the facts presented"One can always make up alternate explanations. It's called science fiction. That's quite different from consulting the collective framing of an entire field of scientific professionals dedicating their entire lives to a subject."
When Einstein introduced his special and general relativity theories at the beginning of the twentieth century, were there not an entire field of scientific professionals that dedicated their lives to Newtonian physics?? what precedent did either theory have? Are you claiming there are no politics involved in the official approval , encouragement and/or sponsorship for certain areas of research as opposed to others for various reasons?
I suggest you investigate the life of Nikola Tesla a man who's ideas were suppressed despite his contributions to Mankind, he basically ushered in the industrial age, AC electricity, radio, x-rays and much much more he had developed a project to generate free energy for the world but JP Morgan made sure he put a stop to that project real quick ! He was an inventor and not mere theorist like Einstein, a man who is in one way or another responsible for about 1200 patents, how come this great genius is barely known today? ask yourself! that question, he was a contrarian in his own days and often ridiculed as preposterous yet, this is a man whose influence directly influences each one of us on a minute to minute basis, many of the alternate theories emerging today are based on his work and as I chose him as my moniker I obviously identify with him in many ways??
what can be more sincere than staying true to oneself? regardless of the popular opinion?? "But to answer your specific question: No, I'm not going to stop and go through my library and compile notes on the last 15-20 years of neurological reasearch."
I personally don't think you have that information. you are merely guessing or you must be misinformed; neurologist have yet to find conclusive evidence of memory "Engrams"
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Pull out the pudding ! It better have whipped cream!
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Here's some information about LTP. "Conclusive" is a strong word in the world of hypotheses.
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@Tesla said
"My thought experiments into explorations of alternate time-lines have led me to the point that i have become obsessed with everything backwards; Such that i conceive a Man travelling backwards in time would change polarity to become some type of a woman[that is revert from an explosive sexuality into an implosive one], i watch movies backwards with the 'search' function i read and write backwards at this point it is hard for me to conceive of anything being complete without it's reflection.
"I am suprised that nobody has mentioned Liber Thisharb.
I quote:
"Let the Exempt Adept first train himself to think backwards by external means, as set forth here following.
("a") Let him learn to write backwards, with either hand.
("b") Let him learn to walk backwards.
("c") Let him constantly watch, if convenient, cinematograph films, and listen to phonograph records, reversed, and let him so accustom himself to these that they appear natural, and appreciable as a whole.
("d") Let him practise speaking backwards; thus for "I am He" let him say, "Eh ma I".
("e") Let him learn to read backwards. In this it is difficult to avoid cheating one's self, as an expert reader sees a sentence at a glance. Let his disciple read aloud to him backwards, slowly at first, then more quickly.
("f") Of his own ingenium, let him devise other methods.In this his brain will at first be overwhelmed by a sense of utter confusion; secondly, it will endeavour to evade the difficulty by a trick. The brain will pretend to be working backwards when it is really normal. It is difficult to describe the nature of the trick, but it will be quite obvious to anyone who has done practices ("a") and ("b") for a day or two. They become quite easy, and he will think that he is making progress, an illusion which close analysis will dispel.
Having begun to train his brain in this manner, and obtained some little success, let the Exempt Adept, seated in his Asana, think first of his present attitude, next of the act of being seated, next of his entering the room, next of his robing, et cetera, exactly as it happened. And let him most strenuously endeavour to think each act as happening backwards. It is not enough to think: "I am seated here, and before that I was standing, and before that I entered the room," etc. That series is the trick detected in the preliminary practices. The series must not run "ghi-def-abc" but "ihgfedcba": not "horse a is this" but "esroh a si siht". To obtain this thoroughly well, practice ("c") is very useful. The brain will be found to struggle constantly to right itself, soon accustoming itself to accept "esroh" as merely another glyph for "horse." This tendency must be constantly combated.
In the early stages of this practice the endeavour should be to meticulous minuteness of detail in remembering actions; for the brain's habit of thinking forwards will at first be insuperable. Thinking of large and complex actions, then, will give a series which we may symbolically write "opqrstu-hijklmn-abcdefg." If these be split into detail, we shall have "stu-pqr-o---mn-kl-hij---fg-cde-ab," which is much nearer to the ideal "utsrqponmlkjihgfedcba."
Capacities differ widely, but the Exempt Adept need have no reason to be discouraged if after a month's continuous labour he find that now and again for a few seconds his brain really works backwards.
The Exempt Adept should concentrate his efforts upon obtaining a perfect picture of five minutes backwards rather than upon extending the time covered by his meditation. For this preliminary training of the brain is the Pons Asinorum of the whole process" -
@Frater LA said
"Here's some information about LTP. "Conclusive" is a strong word in the world of hypotheses.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_potentiation"
YES Brother conclusive is a strong word, as it leaves no room for other hypotheses like that of biologist Dr Rupert Sheldrake, whose theory is rapidly proving more comprehensive than previous ones. most of the times one is not disputing some of these observations, but merely the interpretation of these observations especially when those interpretations are based on previous assumptions.
www.sheldrake.org/Articles&Papers/papers/morphic/morphic_intro.html
[look towards the bottom of the page for mention about memory]
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@JPF said
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@Tesla said
"My thought experiments into explorations of alternate time-lines have led me to the point that i have become obsessed with everything backwards; Such that i conceive a Man travelling backwards in time would change polarity to become some type of a woman[that is revert from an explosive sexuality into an implosive one], i watch movies backwards with the 'search' function i read and write backwards at this point it is hard for me to conceive of anything being complete without it's reflection."I am suprised that nobody has mentioned Liber Thisharb.
I quote:
"Let the Exempt Adept first train himself to think backwards by external means, as set forth here following.
("a") Let him learn to write backwards, with either hand.
("b") Let him learn to walk backwards.
("c") Let him constantly watch, if convenient, cinematograph films, and listen to phonograph records, reversed, and let him so accustom himself to these that they appear natural, and appreciable as a whole.
("d") Let him practise speaking backwards; thus for "I am He" let him say, "Eh ma I".
("e") Let him learn to read backwards. In this it is difficult to avoid cheating one's self, as an expert reader sees a sentence at a glance. Let his disciple read aloud to him backwards, slowly at first, then more quickly.
("f") Of his own ingenium, let him devise other methods.In this his brain will at first be overwhelmed by a sense of utter confusion; secondly, it will endeavour to evade the difficulty by a trick. The brain will pretend to be working backwards when it is really normal. It is difficult to describe the nature of the trick, but it will be quite obvious to anyone who has done practices ("a") and ("b") for a day or two. They become quite easy, and he will think that he is making progress, an illusion which close analysis will dispel.
Having begun to train his brain in this manner, and obtained some little success, let the Exempt Adept, seated in his Asana, think first of his present attitude, next of the act of being seated, next of his entering the room, next of his robing, et cetera, exactly as it happened. And let him most strenuously endeavour to think each act as happening backwards. It is not enough to think: "I am seated here, and before that I was standing, and before that I entered the room," etc. That series is the trick detected in the preliminary practices. The series must not run "ghi-def-abc" but "ihgfedcba": not "horse a is this" but "esroh a si siht". To obtain this thoroughly well, practice ("c") is very useful. The brain will be found to struggle constantly to right itself, soon accustoming itself to accept "esroh" as merely another glyph for "horse." This tendency must be constantly combated.
In the early stages of this practice the endeavour should be to meticulous minuteness of detail in remembering actions; for the brain's habit of thinking forwards will at first be insuperable. Thinking of large and complex actions, then, will give a series which we may symbolically write "opqrstu-hijklmn-abcdefg." If these be split into detail, we shall have "stu-pqr-o---mn-kl-hij---fg-cde-ab," which is much nearer to the ideal "utsrqponmlkjihgfedcba."
Capacities differ widely, but the Exempt Adept need have no reason to be discouraged if after a month's continuous labour he find that now and again for a few seconds his brain really works backwards.
The Exempt Adept should concentrate his efforts upon obtaining a perfect picture of five minutes backwards rather than upon extending the time covered by his meditation. For this preliminary training of the brain is the Pons Asinorum of the whole process"
"thanks for that this provides a point of correlation between my developing system and Crowley's.