Traveler in the Fine Body
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"Once you get it, you get it."
Actually, I think the way more common experience is that early on, one short astral projection success is managed and then the student goes into a prolonged stall. Then for many, there is the separation but no ability to move around. I recently had some troubles with this and it subsided. One thing I noted was that my spring season diet had improved and I was eating much healthier, 'live' food, salads, veggies, fruits, etc.
I think the 'energy' transfers to the astral body as well as the physical. -
"Offhand I would guess that there aren't a dozen men on earth who meet these criteria.
Have I been hanging out with the wrong crowd?"
well, maybe
it does seem to me that the astral can be a very active place,
I dont know about ruling any plane, but from my understanding self mastery is implied on all levels. That can be a tall order to fill.
The teachings of the Decent of Iannna have always been important to me in how I function on any plane of existance. I dont mean this in negative way, but it seems to me that men have different veils and "masks." Men have more of a drive to attempt these matters it seems, as in womens mysteries it is taught to go in, to get out.
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"and most Occultists can't achieve these results because...well, they don't try either"
This is of course, the crux of the matter for most folks. More completely, they don't try 'hard enough'. So many try but they do not make the really big effort required.
I think that to go from no ability to 'beginner' level requires at least two hours of practice EVERY day, for months. For me to get regular success I had to put in about three hours of meditation, deep relaxation, mantra vocalization, 'awareness' exercises throughout the day as well as cleaning up the diet, following intuition in moving to certain herb teas, etc., etc., etc. EVERY day. It essentially constitutes an entire lifestyle makeover. After a couple months really incredible things began to happen.
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@Labyrinthus said
"Of those I have communicated with on the internet who can AP I would say none (maybe one but he does not know it) can move beyond the astral plane. And then operating as its ruler? that winnows down the field of candidates substantially. Unless I am reading too much into it."
Sheet mon, you don't undertake this as a thing in itself. You undertake it as part of a structured, sequential course of initiation. Of course they can't "move beyond the astral plane" if they haven't completed those steps which change THEM.
("Operate as its ruler" means that you are, by choice, where you want to be, and interacting, consciously and by choice, with the objective surroundings.)
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@Labyrinthus said
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"Once you get it, you get it."Actually, I think the way more common experience is that early on, one short astral projection success is managed and then the student goes into a prolonged stall. Then for many, there is the separation but no ability to move around. I recently had some troubles with this and it subsided. One thing I noted was that my spring season diet had improved and I was eating much healthier, 'live' food, salads, veggies, fruits, etc."
I'm betting that only a very small percentage of these examples are undertaken by people (1) in a structured initiation system supported by other practices etc., and (2) working hand-in-hand with a teacher who knows how to do and has prior success. I'm betting there are a lot of do-it-your-selfers trying to read books and work on their own, whose experience fits your description - and then they wonder why they aren't getting better results.
There really isn't much mystery here.
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"Of course they can't "move beyond the astral plane" if they haven't completed those steps which change THEM."
In the Path I followed no one targeted much of anything on the astral plane. It was MUCH Higher planes from day one. The focus was only on what Crowley called 'Spiritual', I think, or nothing.
Quite a few succeed.
However 'any desired plane' implies incredible reach. Incredible as in "unbelievable". There are many planes above and beyond that first 'Spritual' Realm' immediately beyond 'The Void'.
"...and operate therein as its ruler...." Hmmm -- I think, yes, I must've read a little more into that than was meant.
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"("Operate as its ruler" means that you are, by choice, where you want to be, and interacting, consciously and by choice, with the objective surroundings.)"
So, would this be read to imply that the Zelator can move beyond the Void at will? And communicate with the Light Beings there? That would qualify one to open an Ashram in Kashmir and present oneself as a Master.
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@Labyrinthus said
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"("Operate as its ruler" means that you are, by choice, where you want to be, and interacting, consciously and by choice, with the objective surroundings.)"So, would this be read to imply that the Zelator can move beyond the Void at will? And communicate with the Light Beings there? That would qualify one to open an Ashram in Kashmir and present oneself as a Master."
I'm not sure what you mean by "the Void." That's not a technical term in Qabalah.
The access is to "the astral plane," that is, to the World of Yetzirah. That's the specific task. The Path of Tav, by which the Neophyte opens from Malkuth to Yesod, is also used to open from Assiah to Yetzirah.
Maybe it would help to go back to the source documents. There are three statements about this task in the defining literature of A.'.A.'..
One Star in Sight says the Neophyte "Has to acquire perfect control of the Astral Plane." Read critically, that's a bizarre and confusing sentence since, taken literally, it mean that the Neophyte has to have absolute control of every thought, emotion, image, or other psychic content in the minds of every living person - which is absurd. What it actually means in practice is that the Neophyte has to acquire perfect control of himself or herself in the context of the Astral Plane.
Liber 185 says the Neophyte "will further be examined in his power of Journeying in the Spirit Vision." Similarly, Liber Viarum Viae names the power acquired in the Path of Tav as "The Formulation of the Body of Light. Liber O."
Those are very simple statements, and (unless I've missed something this morning) are the only ones on this topic in the defining documents of hte A.'.A.'. tasks.
Additionally, Crowley made various comments about this at various points in his writings. These comments dont supercede the actual definitions above, but are worth attention for possible elaboration. For example, in Chapter XVIII of Magick in Theory & Practice, he wrote:
"It is of the utmost importance to the “Clairvoyant” or “traveller in the fine body” to be able to find his way to any desired plane, and operate therein as its ruler.
The Neophyte of the A.'.A.'. is examined most strictly in this practice before he is passed to the degree of Zelator."
In addition to the well-known statement about testing in OSIS, Crowley also wrote the following in an Appendix to MT&P:
"The Master Therion’s regular test is to write the name of a Force on a card, and conceal it; invoke that Force secretly, send His pupil on the Astral Plane, and make him attribute his vision to some Force. The pupil then looks at the card; the Force he has named is that writ-ten upon it."
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I'm not sure what you mean by "the Void." That's not a technical term in Qabalah."
I have seen where Crowley speaks of the 'Abyss' and the 'Void' in the same breath. I refer to that which is associated with Daath.
This can be confusing since in some schools claiming to stem from western mysticism the "Abyss" is basically 'hell' while here it is more like the Gateway to Eternity.
Perhaps this 'Zelator' grade means any of the planes of the astral? (I have seen it divided into as many as seven distinct regions).
The mental/causal might be part of the Zelator reach? I am not clear on this. ( I am beginning to wonder if I might have to unlearn a ton of stuff in order to get started on this Path of Thelema). (?)
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Yes, you're using a lot of non-Qabalistic language - Different schools do use the same terms for different things. Definitions matter.
For example, "astral" is occasionally used to mean the whole of the nonmaterial aspect of reality. That's usually an excessively broad use in most situations.
In any case, the task for the level you're talking about is to gain ready access to the World of Yetzirah (the world right behind the material), and to be abl to navigate it more or less at will. It has nothing to do with the Abyss (access to Atziluth).
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@Jim Eshelman said
"the World of Yetzirah (the world right behind the material), and to be able to navigate it more or less at will."
'Behind' as opposed to 'above'? That gives it more of a 3D feel. Would Briah and Atziluth be considered deeper still, rather than higher above? Or both?
If the Thelemic system of initiation along with personal instruction truly delivers a neophyte with conscious AP ability "more or less at will" ... even just 50% of the time, that would be astounding. Is that what you are suggesting?
There are various groups out there running astral projection seminars, weekend workshops etc. and the success rate is piss-poor if you ask me. Yet they survive, year after year.
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Deleted by Mad Scientist.
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@Labyrinthus said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"the World of Yetzirah (the world right behind the material), and to be able to navigate it more or less at will."'Behind' as opposed to 'above'? That gives it more of a 3D feel. Would Briah and Atziluth be considered deeper still, rather than higher above? Or both?"
"Both" is good. - What is historically often called "higher" is perhaps better conceived as "inner." We often use the two interchangeably. Nuit cues us to this concurrence of metaphor when she says early in Liber L., "I am above you and in you." 'Above' and 'in' are the same in spiritual matters.
So... yes, Yetzirah is the next plane "higher," which means it is the next plane "deeper." More than 3D - actually 4D!
"If the Thelemic system of initiation along with personal instruction truly delivers a neophyte with conscious AP ability "more or less at will" ... even just 50% of the time, that would be astounding. Is that what you are suggesting? "
The system provides the preparation and instruction, and a Superior (teacher) who has already accomplished this. Yes, it works.
"There are various groups out there running astral projection seminars, weekend workshops etc. and the success rate is piss-poor if you ask me. Yet they survive, year after year."
I don't know how they teach so I can't speak to their methods. Do they, for example, ensure both that the person knows how to prepare himself or herself for standard deep meditation first, and that they know, and employ, the methods of ceremonial magick to fortify and direct the work?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Do they, for example, ensure both that the person knows how to prepare himself or herself for standard deep meditation first, and that they know, and employ, the methods of ceremonial magick to fortify and direct the work?"
I guess it depends on what you call 'deep' meditation. The weekend workshops are not likely to do anything like that. The TMI (Monroe Institute) week long seminars are intensive and they use the binaural technology and sensory deprivation chambers along with verbal guidance which altogether can be effective for some.
But I am not sure what you mean by 'preparing' for "standard deep meditation first". If you mean the deep relaxation and rythmic breathing that I have seen in Thelemic discourses, yes, that much is fairly universal. The ceremonial magick part would be a different matter. From what I read in Dion Forune's work the OBE state is not always preceded by magick ritual... or is it?
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Even the simply "getting out" (so-called) is usually preceded by at least a pentagram ritual; and prior ceremonial work is appropriate to build up the energy state of the subtle body.
Once you are past the first simple stages of (so-called) externalizing the senses to a subtle body, the ceremonial magick part becomes even more critical because it's the navigation system. That is, you need to have someplace specific to go (so-called). This is done by using invoking rituals to tune your psyche to that principle.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"the ceremonial magick part becomes even more critical because it's the navigation system."
Now that is a very practical part of this OBE business. I usually get out and find myself all dressed up with no place to go. While I desire to visit places like Akasha and the Records under the Sphinx, I only think of them after the fact. I have to dwell on the idea of travel to those kinds of places for weeks, typically, before actually getting anywhere close. Even then I did not think of it as soon as I found myself exterior -- I usually get out with a little surprise ("oh! I made it") and then say "I am going to the Astral" and then fly off and then arrive somewhere that I will later recognize as a place that I had been targeting for a while.
Just FYI... I do not use banishing rituals or anything like that. I just do the 'protection bubble' visualization. And even that I have not bothered with for years. I think the best way to express it here is that we would invoke the protection of the HGA now and then. We had sanskrit terms for most things. Unpleasant encounters and negative entities were almost unheard of in the group I was in before.
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I was introduced to astral travel by my friends Ketamine and Delerium Tremens.
Since then we haven't spoken much, but I can still find my way to that little door they opened for me.
In the words of Hadit: "Worship me with wine and strange drugs."
A little (consecrated) valerian root an hour before meditation might help nudge you out that door--but most people are shite-scared to leave their physical body behind. Fear is the main reason most can't acheive astral travel. That and lack of effort.