Finding the 'Child Perspective'
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@Labyrinthus said
" All who pour or spill from a vessel pour from a cup of some sort, like it or not. At some point the honest spiller will wise up and belly up and admit the reality of the cup from which he spilleth.
From the Thrice Boiled, linguini spined declaration of "I have no country" (except that ethereal realm way up there somewhere...)... to the, 'Unto Death "God &Country" zealot', there is likely some reasonable middle ground for sincere seekers. But all this bullshpit about ignoring one's nation of origin is pure baloney."
My garden does not care if I spill water from a Ming Vase, or a plastic doll teacup.....it cares about what is spilling out.
In my teachings, everything has the same origin. My beloved AC taught everyman is a star. Everywoman is a star.
Truthfully, as a lady I will say I am beyond bored of listening to childish name calling.
I have been taught that life implies limitations.
To be alive, to feel, to know
there has to be **self defined **limits.Some people like little cages
some people like big cagesfight for your limiations and they surely will be yours.
the first thing I teach to the children of this world
is not the Law
but the golden rule.treat others the way you would like to be treated.
"He who expierences unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self, and looks on everything with an impartial eye." -Siddhartha Gautama
I personally think 2x times before I write, I have been on bulletin boards for over 20 years now, and have had the immense pleasure of conversing with people all over the globe. I have been humbled on many occasions because of pride in my country. My father was military, and a history teacher to boot. Patriotism is not only ridgily taught, but enforced in schools. When I began home schooling my son, the only issue which the state wanted to know was, how am I planning on intructing my kids to be good patriots and citizens of USA. They did not care what math program, or english books......that says mouthfuls about what I concider the brainwashing of Americans.
Dont get me wrong, each day I give thanks that I am an American woman. For I think (therefore I am;) I have less limitations imposed upon me then any of my Sisters everywhere. And I embrace my freedoms and celebrate them, consciously aware that my Sisters (and Brothers) are in bondage all over the globe.
Children seem to remember the womb, the tight controlling walls of the Uterus, limititing them. They seem to know that they cannot stay with in those limits anylonger, yet to be born will hurt (we all used to have scars of birth-the bumps and cracks in our head-cessarian births do not, and I wonder if this may be an issue for somepeople, I would love to read any research on that!).
We are taught as adults in a magickal community to have a childlike wonder of the world.....what would the tree say if it talked, what does a dog think about a frog, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootiesroll lollipop???? But I dont think as adults you can just switch on that trait. I can ask all the absurd childlike questions, I can loose myslef in play dough and crayons, I can make my dollie dance and dress her.....but I am not 100%.....I am limited, by my own self.....caged and trapped becuase of culturally held beliefs.
I have to think about what is for dinner
I have to think about washing the dishesI realize that I dont "have" to do these things. I do them because I want to, because I want to play this role.
A child doesnt have to stop having fun to throw in a load of laundry. children do not want those limits, and while fight and scream when you reduce thier cages, and install our culturally imposed limits on them.
I am one of those horrid moms who let her kids play in dirt, with bugs and toads. I let my kids explore and create and knock down these stupid civilized rules....like not questioning adults, or going off the paved trail, or any other silly restriction used to control and subdue. I do not allow my children (an this includes all my charges) to sink to name calling, insulting, or bullying. IME those sort of actions reduce, limit, and control where you can go from and to.
If my son calls my daughter a coward because she will not climb up to a certain height, he has labelled her, and reduced what she is (in his belief structure). She is now a coward and it would be a contradiction in his reality if she ever did anything that was not cowardly, or brave. My son knows that that fact is pretty much impossible, that she may be acting cowardly in this one instance, but to brand her as a coward forever is wrong, and inappropriate. What is his motive in name calling? Is it for self gratifaction, or possibly to motivate her? IDK. But I just thought about the male gorilla, beating his chest and hooting to another male.....so possibly name calling is something instinctual......
In her reality, she felt fear of going to high, and so she was smart to listen to her feelings and not attempt to do something that she knew she was not fully capable of doing at the time. In her reality she is not a coward.
The magickal implactions of this fact of name calling are profound, and IMO deserve deep contemplation.
I agree with Mary Poppins....and a spoonfull of sugar....whistle while you work...that sort of attitude is key to finding and having the child perspective.
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@_aLL_seEIng_eYe_ said
"The Child perspective could then very well be impaction at a distance; Larger and more diverse virtual groups such as this. which could provide for both a more complete collective and greater individual freedom, its like saying that there is no initiation ultimately but self-intiation but this cant happen without the help of others..ironically I think this pretty much describes my stance at this point. "
This is something that I have wondered about for a loooong time. Shortly after I began reading about enlightenment and expanding consciousness on the inner planes I threw myself into the recommended practice, meditations, mantras, etc.
Within a few months, as I recall, I had an Inner Experience which I felt was very much like an initiation ceremony. I had not actually joined with a particular group or participated in anything like an outer initiation in a group setting. It just happened. Over the years a variety of experiences on the 'inner planes' began to filter into my worldly consciousness and daily world view. I could sense a Current that I associated with a certain 'posture' of awareness and focus and intent. This was all outside of any sort of initiation related to a formal group in an outer, physical setting. When I see groups like the Golden Dawn, Rosicrucians, Thelema, etc. I wonder about the benefit afforded by joining up and pursuing an outer, physical initiation ceremony.
The gospel teaching about: "Except ye become as little children ye shall not see the Kingdom of Heaven" and "Except that ye be born again of Water and Spirit..." really became curious scenarios that I did not feel that I had a crisp understanding of. Were these references to initiation ceremonies?
So I wonder... what is the difference between a spontaneous, inner self-initiation and a contrived, outer self-initiation and an external other/group initiation?
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@Labyrinthus said
"Within a few months, as I recall, I had an Inner Experience which I felt was very much like an initiation ceremony. I had not actually joined with a particular group or participated in anything like an outer initiation in a group setting. It just happened. Over the years a variety of experiences on the 'inner planes' began to filter into my worldly consciousness and daily world view. I could sense a Current that I associated with a certain 'posture' of awareness and focus and intent. This was all outside of any sort of initiation related to a formal group in an outer, physical setting. When I see groups like the Golden Dawn, Rosicrucians, Thelema, etc. I wonder about the benefit afforded by joining up and pursuing an outer, physical initiation ceremony."
I would say, that there is something to be gained by finding a competent guru to initiate you in the western system. I realized that I was merely playing at magick and self-initiation when my teacher (now Neophyte) took my hands and opened the Sephiroth of the Middle Pillar. Then again every form of emancipation enslaves, I guess it all matters the gilding of your chains...
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Labyrinthus, 93,
"So I wonder... what is the difference between a spontaneous, inner self-initiation and a contrived, outer self-initiation and an external other/group initiation?"
In a nutshell - depth and breadth. Self-initiation (been there, done that, had the sense to go further) occurs within the context of the existing personality structures. There's nobody there to help us break down those structures, and open to deeper understanding. We don't have the mirror that a proper school offers, so (to stay on thread) the Child Perspective is limited to a few degrees of arc.
Initiation taken with a group means the initiate is exposed to a curriculum of self-analysis that leads to self-criticism, in a context that erodes the more stubbornly evasive, ego-protecting parts of ourselves. The other major positive is that we get to watch other people go through the same thing. If you were in a sound group, with reasonably sane leadership, I don't think you'd have let yourself make that 'Thrice Boiled, linguini spined' remark to me in the first place. You'd have learned, as people revealed more of themselves in the group context than normally emerges in friendships, that conventional ideas such as patriotic attachment can in fact dissolve for some people, if that's in their personal dharma. For others, such a concept would remain important. Priorities for individuals vary enormously, and what works for person A is irrelevant to person B.
The Child Perspective involves accepting that in ever increasing swaths of arc. It could even make you feel okay about some liberals.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Veronica said
"Truthfully, as a lady I will say I am beyond bored of listening to childish name calling. "
There was no name calling there, Veronica.
There was a negative characterization of what I consider not just weak but dangerous viewpoint in a negative light. The linguini comment was due to my past conflicts in a group that was more European based and my positive attitude toward my country was a sticking point for them. I noticed that Europeans in general are terrified of anything remotely resembling nationalism. I believe it is related to what I called WWII shell-shock.
There is a HUGE difference between identifying an action as cowardly and calling someone a coward in direct fashion. I have noticed that many people lack the ability to discern the two.
As far as the schools go, I was educated in the 1950's and 1960's and relatively speaking, there is essentially no patriotic indoctrination going on these days that even comes close to what was being taught by 2000 or so (based on what I saw helping with homework). It is even bordering on outright negativity towards one own nation. Genocide against the natives (that never happened), Imperialistic conquest (that never happened), etc.
I believe a positive attitude towards one own nation is a good thing and has a functional place in Spiritual Unfoldment. A recognition of a nation's errors is good but many today seem to obsessed with self-flagellation to a destructive degree. A balance needs to be found.
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@Labyrinthus said
"There was no name calling there, Veronica.
There was a negative characterization of what I consider not just weak but dangerous viewpoint in a negative light."
There seems to be a lesson to learn here: That what you call "a negative characterization," Veronica calls "name calling."
It seems to me that real communication often arises out of actually understanding what the other person is saying rather than fixating on their word choice, and that you already understood what she was saying.
"There is a HUGE difference between identifying an action as cowardly and calling someone a coward in direct fashion. I have noticed that many people lack the ability to discern the two."
That's an extraordinarily liberal perspective for you. It's what left-wing educators of the '70s and '80s called "criticizing the behavior, not the child." It was IMVHO a really fine approach that (among other fine approaches) later deteriorated into excessive "political correctness."
(In what you might regard as an extraordinarily conservative perspective for me, I should admit that, as a self-identified liberal, I've long detested "PC propriety." For example, I regret that the election of John Paul II as pope pretty much put an end to rampant Polish jokes, and (in most contexts) I'd rather use the actual "N word" than use the words "the N word." I detest people being so psychologically bound up that a couple of words or a joke can routinely trigger their reactivity - it makes them weaker. On the other hand, I'm all for exercising reasonable courtesy in conversation with people, and not unnecessarily and knowingly triggering reactivity. Etc. etc. and so forth as I ramble.)
"I believe a positive attitude towards one own nation is a good thing and has a functional place in Spiritual Unfoldment. A recognition of a nation's errors is good but many today seem to obsessed with self-flagellation to a destructive degree. A balance needs to be found."
I agree with this more or less as written, though I might use different words. For example, instead of "Spiritual Unfoldment" in this sentence I'd use "psychological health," which I regard as a prerequisite for spiritual unfoldment.
OTOH I think it important to distinguish our mortal and immortal aspects - our transient, personal, biological aspects (which, by genetics and territory, most definitely includes defense of family, community, and country) from our eternal, transpersonal, spiritual aspects (to which issues like nationality are indifferent). As long as we are spiritual beings with occasional physical experiences, we need to give play to both aspects, but not necessarily to let either of them determine the direction of the other.
I see "my country, right or wrong" not as meaning, "I will say we are right, no matter what!" but as meaning, "I own my passionate loyalty to my country [as to my friends] both when it is right and when it is wrong... and I regard it to be the highest form of patriotism to call it out publicly when I think it's wrong."
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@Jim Eshelman said
"It seems to me that real communication often arises out of actually understanding what the other person is saying rather than fixating on their word choice, and that you already understood what she was saying."
I used to see it that way and still do to a degree but in certain situations I have found that "give 'em an inch and they take a mile" will very often set in when protracted (and especially political or emotional) disagreements are involved. The failure to use precise and disciplined rhetoric will degrade and then one is soon being held to account for not what was said but what was incorrectly paraphrased.
@Jim Eshelman said
"That's an extraordinarily liberal perspective for you. It's what left-wing educators of the '70s and '80s called "criticizing the behavior, not the child.""
Yes, I was very liberal and a registered Dem for the first half of my adult life, donating to ACLU, etc. and that is still good advice.@Jim Eshelman said
"I agree with this more or less as written, though I might use different words. For example, instead of "Spiritual Unfoldment" in this sentence I'd use "psychological health," which I regard as a prerequisite for spiritual unfoldment."
This advances my point a bit, thanks. I really meant 'Spiritual' as opposed to simple psychology there. The self respect one gains once past the early crisis stages does extend from the immediate self to family and community. To see and recognize this is a genuine step in unfoldment, IMHO.
@Jim Eshelman said
"I detest people being so psychologically bound up that a couple of words or a joke can routinely trigger their reactivity - it makes them weaker. On the other hand, I'm all for exercising reasonable courtesy in conversation with people, and not unnecessarily and knowingly triggering reactivity."
This is a good point, but the negative reaction is inevitable when certain ideas are expressed. There are things I want to say. Some or even most, especially in a Liberal community, will react negatively but I keep looking for the occult community that knows how to process an idea that conflicts with their world view. If I were to withhold the ideas that I want to express because I knew that some would react negatively, I would have to withhold 90% of what I wanted to say. On an open forum this is almost inevitable.
@Jim Eshelman said
"I see "my country, right or wrong" not as meaning, "I will say we are right, no matter what!" but as meaning, "I own my passionate loyalty to my country [as to my friends] both when it is right and when it is wrong... and I regard it to be the highest form of patriotism to call it out publicly"
Yes. As I said, it is good to recognize the error but to fixate on the negative and deny the positive is not healthy psychology.
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I find it to be in rather bad taste for so-called Thelemites to waste such time bickering over something as arbitrary as politics.
I truly hope that this much effort is put into magically practices and the discussion of worthy topics.
Simply read this thread from beginning to this point and see how much anyone's perspective has been enhanced by this trivial discussion. I do believe the "Child Perspective," as a group of adults have reduced themselves to children shouting at each other on a playground, totally missing the point that forums ought to be fun and engaging. Instead I have found name calling and foot stomping. It is very very disheartening for a new comer to a forum such as this to see this crap.
Be adults and be magicians and try to keep the discussions relevant to topic without insulting each others beliefs, countries, or race. 
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@TheSilent1 said
"I find it to be in rather bad taste for so-called Thelemites to waste such time bickering over something as arbitrary as politics. "
Silent1, politics is applied Spirituality, a good deal of the time. Not on the mundane level, of course. But it is there on a very critical level.
This idea might take a bit of getting used to for those deeply indoctrinated in the common manner of infoldment, but it is plain as day to those with sufficient experience in the consciousness expansion/growth field.
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@Labyrinthus said
"Silent1, politics is applied Spirituality, a good deal of the time. Not on the mundane level, of course. But it is there on a very critical level."
Before you define what Politics is in relation to "Spirituality", please define the word "spirit."
Sorry for the trick question.
@Labyrinthus said
"This idea might take a bit of getting used to for those deeply indoctrinated in the common manner of infoldment, but it is plain as day to those with sufficient experience in the consciousness expansion/growth field."
I could only get used to this idea only through a tremendous effort.
Now, politics is the process by which any group of two or more make a collective decision. That is fine by me and quite easy to understand and accept. When my wife and I discuss who will do what chore and what we shall eat
, that is politics in it's most basic form.The problem occurs when one party believes that they know what is best for another. I may be well suited to eat dirt and derive nourishment thereby, and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, I can go into the world and proclaim the virtues of my diet to the world and that is OK too. I become a tyrant when I try to force my dirt into the bellies of others and mock, torture, and/or murder those who will not follow my particular way of thinking.
Perhaps the missing elements is seduction. People (especially Americans... I am an American and I am married to an extremely fierce feminist who is also a linguini spined European. Trust me when I say: she would destroy you entirely for your remarks.
) rarely seduce each other anymore, or for that matter allow themselves to be seduced. Children are masters of seduction and as adults we could learn a lot from them. Success in magick (especially invocation) depends upon seduction, and if we are to make progress in our knowledge and conversation we have to allow ourselves to be seduced by the Angel.If I want someone to go along with my ideas, rather than shout someone into submission, I show them how well my way works for me. Which in itself is seduction.
That is how I "apply spirituality."
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@TheSilent1 said
"Now, politics is the process by which any group of two or more make a collective decision. That is fine by me and quite easy to understand and accept. When my wife and I discuss who will do what chore and what we shall eat
, that is politics in it's most basic form."I get the usefulness of this point in your overall message, but wanted to nit-pick about definitions. I think politics requires a minimum of three people. Two people can either agree or disagree. With three people, one can forge an alliance with someone else against the third. That's politics!
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@TheSilent1 said
"Before you define what Politics is in relation to "Spirituality", please define the word "spirit."
Sorry for the trick question."
That's okay. Not too tricky... How is this?;
In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was...
nah... basically, to me it is THAT which issues from the realm ... hmmmm ... I am still trying to wrap my brain around the difference between that which is beyond the abyss of Da'ath and Ain Soph Aur so I am not sure exactly how to phrase it in Thelemic vocabulary... but it is the pre-duality Flow from the Heart of the Creator. It has to split somewhere between here and There but ultimately the recognizable part of the flow here that I call Spirit is the part of the Flow that draws one back to the Heart of the Creator.
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"Now let it be first understood that I am a god of War and of Vengeance. I shall deal hardly with them."
How does this interface with game theory, e.g. Nash equilibrium and Prisoner's Dilemma?
Each man and woman pursuing his and her own interest, doing his and her own will, yet punishing those who restrict his and her will through collective action (War) and individual retaliation (Vengeance). This is exactly what game theory would suggest for many real life situations - they call it a tit-for-tat strategy.
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Even Nash rejects Nashs early Game Theory these days.
The Prisoner Dilema, rather than proving that selfishness is the key to harmony just showed how a paranoid schizophrenic saw the world at that time.
If we need to start referencing Thelema to every odd thought by a crazy person then its going to take a long time to get through it all.
What I don't get is this constant "What about the Thelemic perspective on .... bellybutton fluff....?"
Does it matter? Or is it more important how Thelema helps inform YOUR perspective on things? -
@rpin said
""Now let it be first understood that I am a god of War and of Vengeance. I shall deal hardly with them."
How does this interface with game theory, e.g. Nash equilibrium and Prisoner's Dilemma?Each man and woman pursuing his and her own interest, doing his and her own will, yet punishing those who restrict his and her will through collective action (War) and individual retaliation (Vengeance). This is exactly what game theory would suggest for many real life situations - they call it a tit-for-tat strategy."
Interesting perspective. Gave me some food for thought. Thanks.
@Poe said
"If we need to start referencing Thelema to every odd thought by a crazy person then its going to take a long time to get through it all. "
Well. Throwing Nash into the mix might not be the best example, maybe "good" but probably not the best. I suggested his work on governing dynamics since he has been quite a scientifically useful “crazy person”.
@Poe said
"What I don't get is this constant "What about the Thelemic perspective on .... bellybutton fluff....?"
Does it matter? Or is it more important how Thelema helps inform YOUR perspective on things?"I think everyone here can agree that your perspective and yours alone is what really should matter to you.
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I disagree that your own perspective matters.
What matters is the truth, when in experiment it shows that your perspective falls short of truth, then you MUST cast it away without a second thought.
TRUTH alone in the most important. Better to be without a perspective, ie to be totally unsure and bewildered than to hold a perspective that does not match objective evidence, as discerned in controlled experiments.
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But what if there is no truth? What if there are only 6 billion truths?
And if there is just one truth, then I'm betting on it not being the Boss Hog perspective, yee-haw.
Nash's Paranoid schizophrenia became such an integral part of the American Psyche during the Cold War, I think that many have yet to shake it off.
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@Froclown said
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What matters is the truth, when in experiment it shows that your perspective falls short of truth, then you MUST cast it away without a second thought.TRUTH alone in the most important. Better to be without a perspective, ie to be totally unsure and bewildered than to hold a perspective that does not match objective evidence, as discerned in controlled experiments.
"When I mentioned “perspective” I meant it as in your own unique, evolving perspective on Thelema in particular. In other words your opinion of what Thelema means to you.
Naturally, the scientific method is ideal to get the best possible reliable results. Personally I am careful with classifying these results as absolute truth. In time I might gain greater understanding on the given subject and understand that what I saw as truth was actually a part of a greater more complex structure and therefor only part true.
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This, There is no truth is an absurd notion.
Why not say there is no bowl of fruit, because there are 100 paintings of it and they are all a bit different.Well, if there is no model, then what are the artists painting? how do they know to paint fruit and not tees or tractors.
Your brain is only an impression of a REAL and thus TRUE event in the world. No matter what you do with magick, it only alters the way in which your brain makes impressions and how it makes guesses based on those impressions.
The universe that is annihilated in Samadhi is not the real world, the fruit bowl is never changed, only the mind is wiped clean and no impression is cast upon it. The mind can then re-order the way in which it takes impression from the ground up, from the first step in the algorythm of perception
- Is there a Being, if YES go to 2 if no go to 3
- What color is the Being if RED go to 4 if Blue go to 5.. etc
- Nothing is here, Go to 1.
That is a rather simplified version. But step one related to Kether and thus to Hadit.
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@Froclown said
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The universe that is annihilated in Samadhi is not the real world, the fruit bowl is never changed, only the mind is wiped clean and no impression is cast upon it. "Just for clarification: have you attained, that is, actually experienced, Samadhi?
(Note: I have not.)
I ask because your arguments thus far seem to be leaning very strongly toward the intellectual/rational/logical side of things, and leaning away from the experiential side, and both my logical studies and my (admittedly non-extensive) experience have shown to me that logic and intellect, applied to such topics as "the nature of existence itself" or "mystical states far-removed from normal consciousness," tend to fail or produce circular or nonsensical answers - think about the nonsense physics has thus far produced from attempting to directly reconcile quantum mechanics with general relativity (i.e. negative probabilities, infinities, probabilities with imaginary factors, etc.).