Question about De Via Properia Feminis
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@Antianeirai said
"Is this the current accepted stance of Womanhood in Thelema?"
A lot has been done in Thelema to redress the perceived "sexism" in Crowley's writing (note HB's attempt to smooth over address his misogyny in the intro to Liber Aleph). But in my opinion this kind of political correctness does a disservice. Biological destiny does not automatically correspond to Feminine and Masculine principles, but neither should the difference between these two principles be denied. We should not make reality adjust to politically correct notions, but rather, learn to adjust ourselves to the facts of spiritual truths. As awful as Crowley's comments sound, they are consistent with views on the role of men and women in tantra in other traditions.
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Liber Aleph is majorly cool, but by all means ignore the sexist crap that saturates it.
It's only a Class B document.
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I'm I mistaken when I think that the passage is rather tongue-in-cheek? Hence the use of the word 'speculum' in the analogy? (Not that it doesn't make the passage less sexist, just easier to take less seriously).
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I never took it as tongue in cheek. (Not saying it wasn't: Just saying I never took it that way.) I take it as a sincere expression of his opinon at the time.
But, either way, the same recommendation would apply: Don't take it seriously!
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"Liber Aleph is majorly cool, but by all means ignore the sexist crap that saturates it.
It's only a Class B document"
Hi Jim, you say to ignore the sexist crap without refuting the passage as inaccurate. Something in your wording confuses me, more specifically it's the the "by all means", because I can tell someone who believe the Earth is flat to "by all means continue in that belief" without agreeing with their assertation that the Earth is indeed flat. As for it being simply a Class B document, aren't they held to to be expressive of Briah, enlightened and earnest scholarship? Is this the accepted view of Womanhood in the T.O.T.?
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@Antianeirai said
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"Liber Aleph is majorly cool, but by all means ignore the sexist crap that saturates it.It's only a Class B document"
Hi Jim, you say to ignore the sexist crap without refuting the passage as inaccurate. Something in your wording confuses me, more specifically it's the the "by all means", because I can tell someone who believe the Earth is flat to "by all means continue in that belief" without agreeing with their assertation that the Earth is indeed flat. As for it being simply a Class B document, aren't they held to to be expressive of Briah, enlightened and earnest scholarship? Is this the accepted view of Womanhood in the T.O.T.?"
Class B documents are scholarly works, based on learning, opinion, etc. Certainly higher aspects of thought and scholarship, but not inherently illuminated text.
I'm not sure where I confused you. You asked if it was current opinion in Thelema, but didn't, in your own post, question its accuracy. My word "crap," I thought, would communicate a very low opinion of the passage. I wouldn't have advised you to ignore something of high accuracy or other high value.
Are you saying you really want to know if that antiquated, misguided, misdirected misogynistic piece of shit is accurate?
The passage does not, in any sense, reflect Temple of Thelema's view of womanhood, no.
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@Antianeirai said
"It is indeed easy for a Woman to obtain the Experience of Magick, in a certain Sort, as Visions, Trances, and the like; yet they take not Hold upon Her, to transform Her, as with Men, but pass only as Images upon a Speculum."
This entire passage is consistent with ancient mystery traditions from around the world. Ancient Greek, The Gnostic Gospels, Kashmiri Sufi/Sant Mat, Central American Toltec....
The Nagual that would lead the group had to be male, though women were held to be 'natural Dreamers' and would advance quickly in the magickal arts.
The Sat Guru had to be a man but the women would advance rapidly into the high teaching positions.
The Gnostic Gospels speak of the inferiority of women in their tradition but Jesus claimed that "Mary had done the work of making herself a man" (paraphrasing) so, unlike most women she was allowed to be among them as he spoke/taught.
The Ancient Greek Pythagorean School accepted women but it was recognized that they did not have a Soul and could not accomplish what a man could. (I expect something was lost in the translation but the distinction was clear)
Perhaps there is something to be learned from the ancients in this modern, post feminist movement era. Or maybe not... just food for thought.
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Thank you Jim for your great response. To the other poster, if the belief that a woman has no Soul and is inferior to the male is still an idea that some people hold on to, then we can truly say human kind has not advanced an iota since the patriarchal society became the norm.
I will also add that your words remind me heavily of a time when some races where considered to be non human, because of their skin color or religious beliefs by others who had determined they were the superior race. This silly doctrine was spouted for many centuries, using your thoughts it would have to have merit because so many different and sometimes learned people ascribed to this theory.
What would be the difference then to a woman if we are in the age of Horus or of Osiris if its the same and we are lesser beings?
I am a woman and I think I am a power myself and do not need to become a male in any way shape or form to be or soar towards my creator, to assume otherwise is an insult to humankind and the gods. -
@paladina99 said
"I am a woman and I think I am a power myself and do not need to become a male in any way shape or form to be or soar towards my creator"
Nothing I posted would imply otherwise.
@paladina99 said
"I will also add that your words remind me heavily of a time when some races where considered to be non human, because of their skin color or religious beliefs by others who had determined they were the superior race"
Those were more political nonsense while the examples I gave were Ancient Mystical and Occult Traditions.
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The irony of this passage and assertions of 'Woman having no Soul' is that women are by nature spiritually positive, as men are spiritually negative (according to Dion Fortune).
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I would think that the mere fact that a woman would get so worked up emotionally over the passage as described above, would be evidence in favor of the passage.
Maybe not in all cases, but no rule or description is true "IN ALL CASES", however over all I think the passage holds true. There are of course rather masculine women and contra wise effeminate men.
Too often in the name of "Equality" and other modernist, we find people willing to embrace relativism or to deny general truths on the grounds they are not perfectly descriptive in every general case.
For example the denial that Race even exists, just because 2 individuals of one race may differ more than 2 individuals of different races. This is absurd, A ford F150 and a ford torus differ more than the F-150 and the Chevy silverado. However, we still agree than Ford and Chevy exist as different lines of cars from different manufactures.
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@PatchworkSerpen said
"The irony of this passage and assertions of 'Woman having no Soul' is that women are by nature spiritually positive, as men are spiritually negative (according to Dion Fortune)."
And that's a matter of function, not construction.
One of the biggest and most obvious flaws in the passage is that physical gender varies from life to life. This is one of the easiest observations to make from past life records. Therefore, anything that tries to link current physical gender to the architecture of the spiritual being reincarnating must be wrong.
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I'd always thought that Crowley was referring to something besides physical gender. Inasmuch as he states in other works (MTP, Cap. V) that, in the Aeon of Horus we are "two sexes in one person", I assumed he was in the above passage making a statement of position with regard to the proper relations between these parts of the Self.
Dan
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"I would think that the mere fact that a woman would get so worked up emotionally over the passage as described above, would be evidence in favor of the passage."
I have to chime in here, and I mean no disrespect but...
I too got emotional about this statement....
I laughed my little behind off.
I saw nothing offensive in it at all, I admit though, if I had read that 20 years ago (maybe I did IDK) I would have been miffed and thought AC was sexist and ignornant (which I used too).
I wont say age has mellowed me, as I am not that old, but age has definately allowed me to see through statements like that and understand what is really being said.
"In this see thou her Need of a well-guarded Life, and of a True Man for her God."
I have no problem being under a True Man, unfortunately they are few and far between, which IMO means I have a glorious responsiblity
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@ar said
"I'd always thought that Crowley was referring to something besides physical gender. Inasmuch as he states in other works (MTP, Cap. V) that, in the Aeon of Horus we are "two sexes in one person", I assumed he was in the above passage making a statement of position with regard to the proper relations between these parts of the Self.
Dan"
That was how I heard it too. Though I can't say that's how I think it was intended to read on the surface.
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@ar said
"I'd always thought that Crowley was referring to something besides physical gender. Inasmuch as he states in other works (MTP, Cap. V) that, in the Aeon of Horus we are "two sexes in one person", I assumed he was in the above passage making a statement of position with regard to the proper relations between these parts of the Self."
The use of "woman" and "man" literally means beings of specific physical genders. The contrast of them with "their souls" (or immaterial aspect) would, by itself, seem to mean on a crit read that the words refer to the material aspect. One could reasonably say, of course, that since "soul" isn't defined in the passage, then we don't quite know what it means (e.g., whether Nephesh or Neshamah).
But Crowley was a master of language, and was writing Liber Aleph with the greatest economy and precision he could muster. He didn't refer to the Male and Female in the abstract, but to women and men.
Also, the style and tone are quite recognizable to anyone familiar with literature (and especially British literature) of the time: It is the tone by which men would gather in private clubs and discuss Women in their absence. It is the tone and style of Crowley commenting that it is so damnably hard to find a women with the capacity to be an equal in sex magick that one might as well just find the most convenient piece of ass, keep it all from her, and go on by oneself.
He was speaking of human females: human beings in female bodies: women. He was trying to paternally pass on to his magical son his own frustration with women and some fatherly advice. Though more acceptable, it resembles the hillbilly father who, on learning his son had married a virgin, advised, "Boy, if she weren't good enough for her own kin, she sure as hell ain't good enough for you."
OTOH we can return to the question of, "What exactly did he mean, in this instance, by soul." He does seem to say that this woman, if she's good enough, can be rewarded "a Man-soul" in her next incarnation. Judgmental sexism aside, this does suggest he means Nephesh and nothing deeper. (Although, as has been pointed out, Fortune had the insight to see that a female body tends to come with a masculine Nephesh, and a male body with a female Nephesh: masculine and feminine, in this case, being matters of function and not of form.)
I think, though, that one can't separate these views from those adjacent in Liber Aleph, concerning the Star or deep spiritual aspect, where women are said to be "hollow stars," etc.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"One of the biggest and most obvious flaws in the passage is that physical gender varies from life to life. This is one of the easiest observations to make from past life records. Therefore, anything that tries to link current physical gender to the architecture of the spiritual being reincarnating must be wrong."
This along with your following post brings out the nature of the problem here.
The Hindus and Greeks had several words for what we simply call "soul". Crowley is obviously not referring to anything related to a condition of eternal nature but that which is associated with this incarnation. For those that identify their eternal Being with this temporary physical form the idea can be very confusing.
The Dion Fortune observation is good. I read one author who claimed to be reporting inner discourse with exalted Masters and her viewpoint was to observe that the XX chromosome was complete and the XY was incomplete, the 'Y' being a partial 'X'. The male form in this world therefore felt a certain emptiness, or incompleteness that he needs to fill and until he does he is always out of sorts and seeking fulfillment. If the Goal is not Spiritual in nature or at least God-oriented the behavior that manifests can be quite bizarre.
Apparently, among those males who can make the correct sequence of choices and pursue the Goal vigorously the 'hole' in his being can be filled with something transcendent and he becomes like a super-man upon completion of that morphing. The female can't experience this particular event because she simply does not have that incomplete aspect that needs to be completed, to begin with.
The construction realized by this 'completion event' carries into all future incarnations. Hence a future incarnation as female might be said to be "Man" in the Gnostic sense where Son of Man meant something wholly separate from mere 'man'.
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@Antianeirai said
"Is this the current accepted stance of Womanhood in Thelema?"
All questions regarding the stance of womanhood in Thelema should be referred to the Book of the Law. A quick perusal should dispel any doubts you may have about "sexism" in the ranks. Such attitudes are frowned upon.
The irony: Crowley was rather "feminine," as far as that term goes.
In fact, Astrologically speaking, he was quite nearly a woman himself! Hmmm--Cancer Rising; Sun and Venus in Libra; Moon in Pisces.He was probably speaking emotionally.
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@JPF said
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The irony: Crowley was rather "feminine," as far as that term goes. In fact, Astrologically speaking, he was quite nearly a woman himself! Hmmm--Cancer Rising; Sun and Venus in Libra; Moon in Pisces.He was probably speaking emotionally.
"Well, yes, tropically speaking...
Personally, I tend to read him as a Virgo Sun, but I think that only serves to further your point anyway.
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93, All,
Jung: antisemitism, Freud: cocaine and adultery, Crowley: misogyny.
Yeah, I'm fairly certain this is all superficial. Plus, regardless of all attempts, politics is not religion.
93s,
Oz-L.A.Y.L.A.H.