Apparitions of Mary - Thelemic Perspective
-
Right now listening to Coast To Coast AM discussing apparitions of Mary and It got me thinking - who are the entities behind these appearances? How would we classify them from a "thelemic" perspective?
I for one believe that these are actual visible manifestations that multitudes of people have witnessed, due to studying the phenomena from multiple sources. I believe they are obviously multidimensional entities and question their motives, considering that it is doubtful Mary existed, therefore calling into question them assuming such a form.
My wife's grandmother was a very devout catholic. She spent hours a day in devotional prayer to her Mary icon. One day she looked up after performing the rosary and her statue was crying. She was so frightened that she threw the statue away and converted to protestantism, her reasoning being that the presence of God shouldn't incite such fear as she felt well up inside.
Anyway, maybe some of you have studied the Fatima sightings or some of the more recent ones confirmed by the orthodox church and wondered how you perceive these entities and their potential motives. Slave-gods?
BTW, for your own interest I've added some links to one of the most famous appearances caught on film, in Zeitoun Coptic Church in Egypt.
Youtube Link 1: www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpgZdFM9mH8&feature=related
Youtube Link2: www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvNzDj5tAA&feature=related -
@Foolster said
"I believe they are obviously multidimensional entities and question their motives, considering that it is doubtful Mary existed, therefore calling into question them assuming such a form. "
What if we changed Mary to Horus - I think it's safe to say that, in this context, "it is doubtful Horus existed" (as in: it is doubtful Horus had physical existence as a human being in the way Mary is said to have had, which you doubt), so what could we say of seeing Him assume form before us?
I don't know any more than that, I just thought it could be useful
-
Foolster: it's important to separate the form and the structure of an experience.
Human spiritual experiences are rather universal, and sometimes happen in spite of religion.
Seriously though, the religion part of the equation (the form) has many roles:
-gives people a paradigm for people to assimilate their bewildering experiences
-gives people a method for having their own experiences
-shields the unready from such experiences
-serves as a repository for a mythology that strikes a note in the hearts of the peopleAs far asking who the entity is that would take a form familiar to the worshiper... well, the question is assuming a lot... but even if we assume that the entity is external, is the form external too?
-
"Main Entry: en·ti·ty
Pronunciation: \ˈen-tə-tē, ˈe-nə-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural en·ti·ties
Etymology: Medieval Latin entitas, from Latin ent-, ens existing thing, from coined present participle of esse to be — more at is
Date: 1596
1 a : being, existence; especially : independent, separate, or self-contained existence b : the existence of a thing as contrasted with its attributes
2 : something that has separate and distinct existence and objective or conceptual reality
3 : an organization (as a business or governmental unit) that has an identity separate from those of its memberswww.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entity"
I'm not sure I would us that word for this phenomenon.
"Main Entry: phe·nom·e·non
Pronunciation: \fi-ˈnä-mə-ˌnän, -nən
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural phe·nom·e·na -nə, -ˌnä\ or phe·nom·e·nons
Etymology: Late Latin phaenomenon, from Greek phainomenon, from neuter of phainomenos, present participle of phainesthai to appear, middle voice of phainein to show — more at fancy
Date: 1605
1 plural phenomena : an observable fact or event
2 plural phenomena a : an object or aspect known through the senses rather than by thought or intuition b : a temporal or spatiotemporal object of sensory experience as distinguished from a noumenon c : a fact or event of scientific interest susceptible to scientific description and explanation
3 a : a rare or significant fact or event b plural phenomenons : an exceptional, unusual, or abnormal person, thing, or occurrencewww.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phenomenon"
I know I can be pedantic, dictionary-guy, but there is a very large and very important assumption that directs a person to the term "entity," instead of "phenomenon." But there is almost no step at all from "entity" to the question of "which entity?"
Just some thoughts.
-
@Foolster said
"Right now listening to Coast To Coast AM discussing apparitions of Mary and It got me thinking - who are the entities behind these appearances? How would we classify them from a "thelemic" perspective?"
"Who" they are depends on the individual and the conditions. For example, in many of them - probably most of them - they are eruptions of the fruit of profound personal devotion focussed through the particular religious window of the individual. In that sense they are like most other religious appearances: Outward projections of the HGA. (How "outward" and how true to the core nature of one's HGA is going to vary from person to person.)
Archetypally, Mary much resembles Isis - classic Maddona & Christ-Child images are bare adaptations of Isis & Horus pictures. Mary's name, though, is more intimately linked to the sea. The Greek spelling MARIH = 156, the same as BABALON and, while the Virgin Madonna is hardly a lusty Babalon equivalent, this does show a deeper level of connection of the ideas.
-
@ash: Good points. I've experienced the Horus/nuit/hadit archetype myself as well. But these were always personal experiences and I didn't care if I was hallucinating the apparition or projecing the internal on an external screen. Btw, at this point I don't really believe in an external/internal except for the sake of communication. I understand that the energy I'm focusing my devotion on takes the form of whatever paradigm I am currently operating under. Having been a member of each world religion at one point in my life i know just how true this is.
@avshalom: Good points
@frater la: pedantic |pəˈdantik| aka fussy, finicky, dogmatic, literalist, hair-splitting, quibbling, nitpicking, persnickety.
@Jim: Interesting..I thought Mary inviolate is torn on the wheel? That's why I was asking from a uniquely thelemic perspective. The outer forms of the xian religion are being shredded yet we apparently have an entity making guest appearances for what purpose? I have run into deceitful entities myself, posing as something they are not. Your idea that this is a collective projection of the HGA is interesting but denies the possibility that this may be a subjectively independent entity. We know Crowley says to question the spirits and I am questioning the blatant appearance of the "mary" apparition.
Did you see the crowd whipped into a frenzy? The entity didn't say a word, but it solidified their faith in an old decaying religion. Your interpretation of Mary may be enlightened, but the crowds is arguably not. I've read the comments of some of the eye witnesses and this just further chains them to the death worshipping, celibate nurturing lifestyles the new paradigm is challenging.
I'm curious no one mentioned psychotronic weaponry. Jacque Vallee, a french physicist who worked for France's "NASA" details information he came across regarding the use of holographic projecting weaponry for the purpose of whipping people into emotionally sensitive states. A buddy of mine mentioned to me long ago how when they were doing Seal operations on enemy shores, the ship at sea would use holographic projections of flying apparatus to confuse their enemies. So I guess this could be an example of that too.
-
Foolster, you're conflating your concept of Mary, with the collective concept of Mary, with your wife's grandmother's concept of Mary.
Many people from many religious backgrounds have had visions of adonai - and in some of them he was Jesus on the cross. Even after 1904
What you seem to be looking for is a way to figure out why 'the entity' would show up in a form that runs counter to your personal dogma. So the easiest straw to grasp is that it's a bad guy doing some tricking.
When it's pretty clear. You're wife's grandmother had a vision of Mary because she was a devotional Catholic for a long time. It's the form her mind came to accept. And her experience was perfectly valid for what it was.
-
"You're wife's grandmother had a vision of Mary because she was a devotional Catholic for a long time. It's the form her mind came to accept. And her experience was perfectly valid for what it was.
"Sounds like a strong hypothesis based on what I have come to understand, which means that's kind of my fallback position. Perhaps some explanation is necessary...
When I do my "water-walking" in my mind (lol), I anchor one point in my mind to a more concrete and safe hypothesis while I allow myself to also consider other possibilities. lol... This is how I go "cave-diving." But in the nature of that idea, I toy with this idea myself...
A weaker hypothesis, but one that may also match with what I have come to understand, is that the Copts have long held to an outward doctrine of theosis and have always been more magick friendly. They've had the benefit of being forced to be a melting pot for ideas simply because of the ancient trade routes.
You put together old-school (Old Aeon formulas) brothers and sisters like that and get them praying in a time of need, and you just might generate for yourself some spontaneous mathematical energetic phenomena.
Notice the geometric construction of the church: *(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/738102/zeitoun1(1).jpg)
Notice the colors of the light emphasized in this photo: *(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/738102/0(1).jpg)
Somewhere in the midst of those timeless colors, shapes, and numbers, I intuit a greater mathematics at work. For me, it's later in the process that these things take on names of entities specific to the culture of the adorants.
Wasn't someone talking the other day about Crowley having written hymns to Nuit under the name "Mary," and Rome having loved it until they figured out who wrote it and what point it was intended to prove...?
-
i don't have a dogma to conflate. I was a catholic at one point and spent much time contemplating the holy vesica piscis. i've even had Holy Visions of Mary myself, The All Mother. What you don't seem to understand about my point is that there are independently operating entities out there who bullshit. This has nothing to do with grasping for straws. But I'll forgive your assuming because my family and I have experienced somethings that are atypical.
-
^^
Interesting.
I myself have had various encounters with UFO abductees, and I've noticed something in common between them: their symptoms have much in common with those of demoniacs.
I don't discount the possibility of demons masquerading as beings from other planets, but the confusing nature of the evidence, along with the vast numbers of hoaxes and frauds make accurate analysis difficult.
What sort of rituals did you do to attract these entities?
(Also, the thing about Aiwass is this: not only did "he" predict future events, but he did so in an organized, Qabalistically sound, eloquent manner. Most manifestations of "alien" activity are characterized by their incoherance. The writers of "The Pleiadian Mission" would be eaten alive in any university English class. Despite their flashy theatrics, "alien entities" have yet to pen any decent prose.
) -
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs152.snc3/17964_254828582983_598587983_3370161_1543516_n.jpg
A picture of one of the lightshows the beings put on one night over our house. They would fly towards each other and merge, then split apart again. they would repeat this until they had my whole families attention. BTW, we live out of the city on a large swath of private land.The rituals we're "rightly performed with joy and beauty!" aka...private but effective.
-
"The rituals we're "rightly performed with joy and beauty!" aka...private but effective."
So, you performed a ritual the effect of which was to manifest alien light orbs around your home?
You seem pretty proud of your accomplishment.
Perhaps you could post the ritual for the benefit of those who might want to get in touch with these "beings."
-
JPF..
read your private message. The "orbs" were just the beginning, nor is my intention some prideful display. They were a few hundred feet in diameter and morphed into triangular craft, hence the purpose of this post. To insinuate that the Mary apparitions are in the same class as those as UFOs aka, not what they appear to be and I wanted a genuine thelemic perspective on the UFO phenomena besides dismissal.ps. the ritual was an augmented one fromAL. describing the ritual wouldn't be effective. It'd be like giving you a girls phone number who doesn't know you...she doesn't recoginze the caller ID..won't pick up.
-
Hmm..
The "apparition phenomena" looks like it could have been cause by solar flares, kind of like a channeled version of aurora due to the metal on the top of the church.
Your UFO phenomena sounds like something different, but you must realize that at some point I am required by principle to disbelieve you, without experiencing the phenomena for myself.
This is the problem with all UFO reports. They are simply so potentially significant that sanity puts up its wards.
I encourage you not to be discouraged by the disbelief you encounter. At the same time, you need some healthy skeptics in your life, simply for the sake of your own sanity, if you're going to be frequently experiencing phenomena like the above.
93
-
P.S. - As someone who has spent a few weeks in hell, on more than one occasion... If you don't have a clear and legitimate artifact from your experiences, even if it is merely a signed contract, there is absolutely no proof that your experience took place in THIS universe. Neither you, nor "they," are bound to anything.
It's all just in your head, and is best forgotten - if you happen to be able to do so.
Watch that one. They'll trick you with that one - spirits, faeries, aliens, "masters," ....whatever bullshit title they decide to go by...
Just a little survival technique I learned. If you take offense, I guess you'll take offense.
But I've been lied to. So, to be forewarned is to be fore-armed.
-
good advice sir. read your inbox. also, imagine for a minute that "aliens" were to make themselves known. How do you think that would affect society? Do you think it would collapse in some ways? Would there be ensuing chaos? Yes.
I think this phenomena is, again, a matter of symbiosis which has played a part in our consciousness' evolution and serves as a barometer of our progress. A mass appearance is one of the few things that could immediately make people question their faith to the core. It would also defy materialistic science and cause a major paradigm shift.
There was once a time when man walked with the Gods, so say the myths. What if that is cyclical? What if they are waiting on the threshhold, waiting for the right person to just invite them in? Intriguing questions with interesting consequences to consider.
ps. regarding your theory of solar flares being the cauase of the apparition, if you research zeitoun coptic church in egypt, you will see many photographs of her being appearing before congregants since the late 60's. They've even broadcast her appearances to millions in egypt when she has appeared. Interesting for a primarily muslim country.
-
I'm not sure chaos would ensue with the arrival of Visitors.
Obviously a lot would depend on their nature and the nature of the contact.
But maybe we're being hyped so much about the idea in the run up to 2012, that if/when it does happen we'll all be rather blasé about it.
Much like most major planetwide events, people will take notice for a day then return to filling their heads with sports trivia and soap operas.Of course, the Project Bluebook people would have us believe that "they" are coming, but that its actually Satan disguising himself as them, then there's David Icke's crowd with their interdimensional lizards (who may or may not also live inside the hollow earth with its blue crystal sun), and the Nephilim or Anunaki crowds with Planet X about to slam into our orbit. All either orchestrated by, or through, the Illuminati. What a busy bunch they are! (what with making Christina Aguilera video's and running the world).
Don't get me wrong. I LOVE this stuff, its highly entertaining, conspiracy sci-fi can be right up there with Hollywood's best, and I have personally seen a few UFO's in my time, however they remain just that - Unidentified. Without a whole host of direct contact experiences and a verified frame of reference that includes all the above mentioned possibilities, so each can be discarded in turn, I have no way of saying what I saw, other than it was Unidentified craft. To say more is a lie.
And on the "men walked with gods" thing.
I personally think that's just ancient civilisations discovering Dinosaur fossils and attempting to create a mythology that includes them. Don't you think it odd that the discovery of Dinosaur fossils has only been written about in the last few Centuries, when we know that many fossils lay close to or frozen in the surface?
Yet we find no reference to them (except maybe as the mythical dragon/lizard gods) from cultures that we know were mining at least to depths where fossil discovery would have been certainly possible.
