Of Kings and Slaves...
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@Froclown said
Sure imposed regulations for those who are not yet in touch with the HGA, once one achieves knowledge and conversations one is instructed to "get out" of the system.
Thelema has two classes in it, those who get it and those who don't get it yet.
There is a system in place to impose rules over those who do not get it, until they do get it.
Those rules however are slowly taken away with each initiation, and each set of rules and ideals is such that it leads one to epiphanies that transcend those rules.
Thus, a system like the A.'. A.'. works to decondition the individual, to educate him as a king, where as the system of the OTO works more to provide a context for the slaves who serve, to serve the kings, as is the WILL of the slave. They are free to serve or not serve and the higher degrees do use the lower degrees against their WILL for ends that benefit only the elite few at the expense of the many. (Or even worse benefit no individual entities only the state egregore).
Ultimately however even the OTO does not impose forced rules it is working with the needs of the Slaves to provide them with a place to fit in, rather than seeking to impose by force or trickery any sort of collective WILL over them.
I do not see where you get the notion that love is the law, means that individuals would be wise to sacrifice their own WILL to an abstract collectivism, such that the abstraction is propagated while every individual is impoverished.
How does this differ from Christianity where the individual WILL is sacrificed to the WILL of "GOD". Or Totalitarian Fascism where the individual WILL is sacrificed to the State.
Thelema suggests a meritocracy to be sure, and even hints at an aristocracy, however it also shows that these social roles will be chosen freely by the individual based on his own innate properties. That higher ranks require greater risk will keep the lower sort of man from coveting them.
Kings are servants/slaves and servants are the real kings. It is all in the context you use the word .... or better said, only the ones that Will to serve the highest, will become Kings... an interesting paradox.
It also sheds some light in that nature of service. The higher you are, the more service you have to provide, not the more "servants" you will have. Usually the matter is understood as the opposite. -
93 Metzareph,
I understand Kings are servants. Your statement draws an image of Tiphareth (The King) serving/wearing the (The Crown) of Kether. Which is Awsome!
What I don’t understand is this, slaves and servants are the real Kings. Could you please elaborated on this?
BTW, it's good to see you back on the forum. I always enjoy your posts. -
In china they had a saying.
At home be a Taoist and in public be a Confucianist.
Let us say that the King is the Taoist A.'.A.'. training the egoist King of his own life and self sufficient as possible.
The Slave to the greater WILL of the community is like the Confucianist who fallows the social ritual ceremony (Li) and filial piety. Which is similar to the Gnostic Mass and Social-brotherhood of the OTO.
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... How about the Will to learn and the Will to help "teach"? If you're looking at it from different angles that is
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Equality does not mean that everyone will be the same.
If you look at a coin sorting machine, all the different types of coins are treated equally, but in the end the quarters, nickels and dimes all come out in their own tray, orbit, caste, whatever.
So application of the law, ensures that the mixed up, multicultural chaos of people, come out ordered into a Cosmos under the divine Rule of Horus and his human emissaries, the kings of the earth. With each culture separated under it's proper kings.
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The more i'm learning on my "Thelema Homework" lol (not syllabus, just floating) The more it just rings to me (if only currently..we'll see) that the Kings are the ones who take thier practise and education and APPLY it to thier OWN veiws...the slaves are the ones who build thier own veiws around the education, and adopt the "will" of the ones teaching them.
DO what thy WILT... not do what THEE wilt ...
How on earth could you know if your true "will" is exactly dot for dot as crowleys (He's a man of many words, but what didnt he admit to..?) or a system who needs what a company called common purpose calls "Usefull Idiots" ... And look how he turned out... Do you want that for yourself also? ...
The slaves/usefull idiots will serve the Kings with nodsnods and verifications of working rituals for the massess and create a somewhat "interlectual" hierachy whereas the Kings take what they have learnt and provide something usefull that has not yet been touched... ie leading the way...
I've some quite strong words here and i want to make it clear that i do not call anybody a usefull idiot , nor do i call this structure anything less than wonderfull. I beleive everybody gets that "home calling" when they find something that fits THEM, and it would in fact be an idiot that ignored that...
Just an interpretation... or a rejumbling of the man himself has already foreworded many a time, and those in his league.
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"Kings are servants/slaves and servants are the real kings. "
This concept smacks of Old-Aeon ideology, but I see what you mean. Neither is Froclown's description of the Thelemic heirarchy incorrect: the Book of the Law presents a concept of rulership that favors a rule of the few over the many.
There will always be slaves. In our society, a "democratic" society, we'd like to think that "all men are created equal", and "endowed with inalienable rights," but this is simply not the case. Even in such a democratic society as the United States, the few still rule over the many--it is, for all intents and purposes, an oligarchy.
Human society naturally divides itself into a caste system, as human beings are fitted to different tasks and positions by nature. It is the Will of the slave to serve, just as it is the Will of the King to rule. No distinction can be made between the two, as both equally represent their Wills in action.
Problems arise when one begins to evaluate the Wills of others in order to determine their inherent value, without regard for their essential rights as human beings. "Do that, and no other shall say nay." "You have no right to do your Will." Essentially, it is not one's business to determine the Will of any other person. Likewise, one whose Will it is to be a slave would have a hard time if they spent their life acting like a King.
So, in effect, both viewpoints are correct: the King, by ruling, provides service to those he rules: by setting an example in doing his Will, and by seeing to the order of society so that others might also be free to do their Wills. The slave, by service, allows the King to rule in his full capacity.
The main issue is a flawed evaluation of the individual leading to societal error: thus, when the slaves attempt to rule themselves, thinking the slave class to be more important, or when Kings rule their subjects too harshly, forgetting the necessity of treating the lower classes with dignity.
Of course, so simple and natural a system as "castes" is bound to offend those who have fooled themselves into the assumption that human beings are fit and able to rule themselves en masse. Even in the Greek poleis, the model upon which modern democracy is based, one finds a distinction between classes.
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Rather than rewrite to fit, I shall quote myself here, if you believe quoting oneself is precocious, lazy, or tacky that is fine, But I'm doing it anyway.
Since we are not born with perfect self knowledge any more than we are born with perfect knowledge of the external world, that those who have advanced on the path of self illumination are in a position to guide and teach those who are less advanced on that path. Helping to guide each individual to the self discovery of the TRUE WILL, and to help integrate each individual into a social caste in the external world that best suits their unique nature as it's discovery unfolds through guided experiences and experiments preferably under scientific control and scrutiny so there can be no mistake as to what the results of each test and experience reveals about the TRUE WILL. In this way society as a whole can be set up to help delineate the proper function of each individual, in relation to what that individual has gleaned from guided experiences about the nature of his own WILL.
Thus you have advanced initiate who may not help anyone, you have those who might teach meditation and mysticism (spiritual leaders or clergy) but have no practical advice. But the KINGS or the true leaders of society must be adepts at both inner and outer knowledge and skills, These will be the ones to organize society and to help create and maintain the caste system.
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Those who maintain that Thelema should be a democratic equality, I really don't see that anywhere in any writings on Thelema.
In Crowley's Abbey they observed strict rules and hierarchy, in Rabelais everything was very disciplined to the point that the monks obeyed without being told or forced. It the prof house from Moon Child the everything in very strictly organized in accordance with Cyril wishes. Likewise with the abbey in Drug fiend.
Where exactly does one find liberal-democracy, humanist or socialism in Crowley's writings?
From what I read he wanted to use psychological behaviorism and other training to organize highly disciplined monasteries that operate like swiss clockwork.
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"Where exactly does one find liberal-democracy, humanist or socialism in Crowley's writings?"
Where the people will it.
Where they will something different, they'll have something different.It would simpler for each idealist if the universe conformed to what they each think is best, but it's a lot more work for the universe.
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The iChing maintains that social harmony arises when men assume their natural place in society and that disorder arises when this is refused. Specifically it gives mention to the difference between a mountain peak and a valley. Trouble would arise if one tried to assume the position of the other. So it is with men. That's why things like affirmative action are bullshit. I've seen the negative consequences first hand where someone more qualified is disqualified from a position on a grad program simply because they are white and they need to leave room open for someone NOT white.
Anyway, Horus was always a God of the Kings/Rulership; nothing has changed.
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The colour of one's skin being considered a merit is not equality, it is reverse racism. Ignoring skin tone, race, sexual and religious preference creates equality because it focuses on the actual merit of the individual. There was a fire department in NY that wouldn't hire any white fire fighters because they were looking for a black ones, as if it matters. The problem was, none of the black applicants could pass the test so they kept other white firefighter applicants who WERE qualified from getting a job. That's not equality; its politics.
If I was born in a country without a grad program I would either:
a) go to one that has one as nothing would stop me from seeking out my true will; or
b) Not let having a grad program hold me back from seeking out my true will
BTW, I never went to grad school, just have friends.
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I'm sorry, I misunderstood you.
Merit should dictate the rank of the individual in society, much as it does in the military. I think Liber AL calls upon the reader to elevate themselves; to face all challenges with the armor of courage. Through these challenges, merit is bestowed by virtue of the road travelled and obstacles overcome. As for creating a society where Merit rules, it would either need to be militaristic in nature or technologically advanced to the point whereby the democratization of technology allows individuals to quickly come together and effectively organize against the established political system...who knows, we'll just have to wait and see.
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93,
It always interests me when people start talking about kings and slaves because I have such a hard time squaring it with "Every man and every woman is a star." The contention that it is the natural Will of certain people to be slaves strikes me as too convenient and rather unconvincing. It seems to serve the purpose of glorifying the egos of those in positions of power and also of absolving them of their own culpability. "It's those other people, those slaves that are the problem, certainly. Gosh no, it couldn't be me. I'm a king."
The only way for me to deal with it is to return to The Book of the Law. I find it very interesting that the prophet himself is described as a slave in I:26. Furthermore, the verse from which most of this slave-king stuff seems to derive is II:58, which reads, "Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings forever: the slaves shall serve." For me, the interpretation of the verse hinges on the function of the colon, and it seems perfectly reasonable to interpret it as appositive in function, and thus interpret that the kings are also the slaves (although I would suggest that this interpretation is still possible even if the colon is syntactical-deductive.) It would, in my opinion, take kingly courage to become a slave to one's own Will.
I know this thread has been more about the king-slave dichotomy generally and less about The Book of the Law, so, hope this wasn't too much of a digression.
Love = Law
- C
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Ha... The really funny thing, TwoMoccasins, is that I'm currently in a psychodynamically-oriented graduate program in psychology. Imagine...
- C
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All myths and spiritual texts are best understood from an internal point-of-view... -
Here is how Wikipedia explains the master-slave dialectic of Hegel.
Reaction
The "I" sees another "I" and finds its own pre-eminence and control compromised. It ignores this other or sees it as a threat to itself. Its own self-certainty and truth have forevermore been shattered. The only means of re-asserting itself, in order to proceed toward self-consciousness, is by entering into a struggle for pre-eminence.
[edit] Death struggleA struggle to the death ensues. However, if one of the two should die, the achievement of self-consciousness fails. Hegel refers to this failure as "abstract negation" not the negation or sublation required. This death is avoided by the agreement, communication of, or subordination to, slavery. In this struggle the Master emerges as Master because he doesn't fear death as much as the slave, and the slave out of this fear consents to the slavery. This experience of fear on the part of the slave is crucial, however, in a later moment of the dialectic, where it becomes the prerequisite experience for the slave's further development.
[edit] Enslavement and masteryTruth of oneself as self-conscious is achieved only if both live; the recognition of the other gives each of them the objective truth and self-certainty required for self-consciousness. Thus, the two enter into the relation of master/slave and preserve the recognition of each other.
[edit] Contradiction and ResolutionHowever, this state is not a happy one and does not achieve full self-consciousness. The recognition by the slave is merely on pain of death. The master's self-consciousness is dependent on the slave for recognition and also has a mediated relation with nature: the slave works with nature and begins to shape it into products for the master. As the slave creates more and more products with greater and greater sophistication through his own creativity, he begins to see himself reflected in the products he created, he realizes that the world around him was created by his own hands, thus the slave is no longer alienated from his own labour and achieves self-consciousness, while the master on the other hand has become wholly dependent on the products created by his slave; thus the master is enslaved by the labour of his slave. The realization of this contradiction allows the slave to once again struggle against his master. The contradiction is resolved when the difference between slave and the master is dissolved and both recognize that they are interdependent.
Conclusions
One interpretation of this dialectic is that neither a slave nor a master can be considered as fully self-conscious. A person who has already achieved self-consciousness could be enslaved, so self-consciousness must be considered not as an individual achievement, or an achievement of natural and genetic evolution, but as a social phenomenon. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-slave_dialectic#Hegel.27s_my)So then Hegel claims that modern social state with it's equal but interdependent individuals working within a materialist market economy is the natural progression of Geist, as it manifest in time. The development of the Zeitgeist. That is he claims that as society is created that is reliant on the material products of labor, the role of master and slave are forced to level off. To became as the conclusion states "Fully conscious" a state in which neither the master nor the slave can exist alone.
However the Book of the Law tells us.
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He that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is filthy shall be filthy still.
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Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are, & not other. Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: the slaves shall serve. There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was. Yet there are masked ones my servants: it may be that yonder beggar is a King. A King may choose his garment as he will: there is no certain test: but a beggar cannot hide his poverty.
If we this state is not to change, then it seems we are not to expect in this Aeon of Horus the collective development of what Hegel believes is "Full consciousness". We are instead to expect the full development of the Master to it's highest and purest state and the slave also to it's highest state. But we are not to expect to see anything like the collective salvation of the type propounded by "Liberation Theology".
Indeed if anything we are to see a return of Hadit consciousness of individualized incomplete self-consciousness raised to it's highest pitch, as it Aspires to expand it's Horizion of being into Nuit and to increase it's own personal power over the world as Ra-Hoor-Khuit.
The Thelemic state is one full of kings and slaves, and Dominance-submissive relationships. Where My "I" and your "I" are interact to discern our own relative identity, and thus to form a striated and hierarchical society, where each individual finds it's place like gears in a clock and is held into that place by the strictest Military discipline.
How do we discern who is a master and who is a slave?
Well just like in Hegel of course, by FIGHTING. -
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"How do we discern who is a master and who is a slave?
Well just like in Hegel of course, by FIGHTING."Why waste your time fighting? Thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say neigh. (EDIT: neigh? lol)
