Of Kings and Slaves...
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"the Earth let her be gouerned by her parts and let there be diuision in her, that the glory of hir may be allwayes drunken and vexed in it self. Her course, let it ronne wth the hevens, and as a handmayd let her serve them. One season let it confownd an other, and let there be no creature vppon or within her the same: all her members let them differ in their qualities, and let there be no one creature aequall wth an other: the reasonable Creatures of the Erth let them vex and weede out one an other"
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@Alrah said
"most male animals have evolved set's of ritualised behaviours that limit harm and bloodshed in respect to ones own species. The human animal also has that capacity. It's only when 'the ego' get's involved that it all get's messy and the knives come out."
I am not sure that is true.
I have seen "Wild Kingdom" type video where the dominant male struggle can get very bloody. From wolves to horses the loser can limp off and never be seen again, presumably because it died. Among chimps observers were horrified to see murder and cannibalism! Also it can be a short and rather bloodless affair, this being when the loser sees early on that he hasn't got a fighting chance.
Among humans we see a similar scenario. When the match is even or close it can get very bloody, as in WWI and WWII.
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Good point. On a philosophical level, you can't have willful murder without believing in separateness between the individuals involved. Ergo, an ego.
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@Froclown said
"As a simple matter of course Each individual must find itself supreme and claim for itself the whole universe as it's property and seek total domination of all things subject to it's WILL."
"As a simple matter of course [...]"? Could I ask you to expand on this a little?
- C
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@Labyrinthus said
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@Alrah said
"but the truth is: all murders are decided by the attitude of the ego in respect of the other that is being killed."Would that imply that suicide must involve full blown Multiple personality disorder, or MPD?"
hmm... to me it might be like Suicide is murder of the existence of all sense of other
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@Takamba said
"hmm... to me it might be like Suicide is murder of the existence of all sense of other"
If suicide victims generally expressed a desire to wipe out otherness that might be so.
I think the desire to wipe out all sensory input is more often expressed. A presumption or hope of a peaceful nothingness is more common.
edit; another motivation that I heard in an interview years ago was expressed as a desire to "do others a favor and help the family and friends by removing such a useless, depressing character in their lives". That was about 20 years ago... they may have medication now to lift the mood a bit for cases like that.
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Yes.
You have to learn to control the meaning before you learn to control the sensory perceptions...
I don't know who that one's for, but if I've made even a little peep in your mind, you'd better pay attention to this because it is foundational to may wy of thinking and acting at present.
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I can't even make that last post make sense to my own mind in the current state I'm in.
But I have been inwardly trained that it is foundational to understanding the limitations of being able to communicate in this state of mind.
Namaste.
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I see no reason why the desire to alter elements of one's environment that are not co-operating must require some sort of negative evaluation of the motive as "Ego" based.
Is it Ego based to want to tear up the soil and uproot grass and weeds in order to plant one desired crop?
Is it Ego based to want to kill and remove all fleas, ticks and mosquitoes that cause itching and spread disease?
What about to want to process plants into food.
How about the desire to kill, slaughter and eat an animal.If these actions are natural and not ego based,
Then is not the desire to Murder some one who is stealing your crops, contaminating your home with pests, or even just poking you with a stick until you get fed up with it and alter your environment to suit your own WILL to not be pestered by taking a knife and in a quick flip of the wrist putting an end to the offending element. Which may one may not be the best course to take, as it has been said the fastest way to the bottom of a cliff is to jump, but it's not the best way.All beings considered an extension of one's own WILL, means any act which puts those other beings in their place as subservient to your WILL are lawful. But keeping in mind if you KILL some one who provides you a service, then you will either have to do without that service or do it yourself. You may get annoyed with your stuttering and tenancy to get tongue tied, but if you cut out your tongue you lose the ability to speak at all. Likewise if you butcher annoys you with his price gouging and long stories, it is best to put up with him, as if you kill him, not only are you without meat, but so is the whole village. This can make the townsfolk mighty sore at you, not to mention people who might actually have enjoyed the man's company will not be pleased at his death.
So you see, the whole is an extension of yourself, if you act rashly you may end up cutting your nose to spite your face. On the other hand, some times for the good of the whole it is necessary to surgically remove growths and cancers, and disease can not be tolerated. To this extent murder is perfectly lawful, as in some cases it is in line with one's WILL to rid oneself and one's environment of a blight, a demon that does not cower before the light, is best banished totally. Exile or annihilation may be the only options.
Thelema means looking at all people places and things and elements in one's own personal cosmos which are best left to do what they are doing, until such time as you call upon them for use, each according to the nature of it's own personal motion and limits. Thus Every force and being, animal, mineral, vegetable, human, demon, elemental, or God, must be compelled obedient to one's WILL. As Frigga commanded all things in heaven and earth to swear an oath not to harm Balder, So to does one command in the name of the HGA that all things in heaven and earth swear an oath of obedience to one's WILL, by way of the Abramelin Ritual, clearly stated in Liber Samekh:
Hear Me, and make all Spirits subject unto Me: so that every Spirit of the Firmament and of the Ether: upon the Earth and under the Earth: on dry Land and in the Water: of Whirling Air, and of rushing Fire, and every Spell and Scourge of God may be obedient unto Me.
Of course if one moves outside one's orbit, then conflicts occur in which one is acting outside of one's WILL and taxes that oath of obedience. In that case there is a fight, and one is generally put back into one's place. If it was oneself than strayed. If it was the other who strayed, then that other will be put back into place by your WILL.
The only way to know your own or anyone's WILL is to test it by fighting and finding your place, being into your place and by putting others in their place, many times. Each success and each failure is a result of a test of WILL on both sides. This is the science by which one learns little by little, what is one's true place, one's true caste, and orbit. If and only if one can learn from one's past transgressions, learn by objective interpretation of one's actions and one's journal, often with aid of a superior. Only in this way can these raw data points be statistically processed and from them we can discern the course of the median, a formula of the asymptote or limit to which defines the attractor to which all the various data points, the transgressions tend to aggregate. That unmanifest line which all the points are tending towards but each marks a point of deviation from that line, that TRUE WILL.
If for example we plot every dart that hits the board and tag each one as a good of bad throw. We will see over many rounds of dart through that the darts get closer and closer to the bullseye. This shows that the TRUE WILL is to hit the bullseye, each actual dart will inevitably miss the impossible "perfect" bullseye, but when at the start we have no idea at all what we are aiming for the darts hit all over the board. But as points as each hit, each experience is identified and ranked an a scale of pleasing or displeasing results, over time we can glean what results are most pleasing, that is our aim becomes more TRUE, as we learn from our past interactions with the game. Then is such a way we can minimize low scores and maximize higher scores as we seek hone our skills and out aim to the perfect game of darts.
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Yes, some interesting points.
But it presupposes that True Will is a zero sum game.
Exactly who do I fight when I compose a song?
And yes, the contemplation of current vs. a hypothetical "improved" reality is ego-based. That's the ego's job. There's nothing wrong with it. Just don't mistake ego for True Will.
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You created a different question than the one I asked.
I acknowledge that there are situations where fighting and competition exist.
But I'm telling you that there are situations where an external fight is unnecessary.
Many geniuses died penniless without anyone seeing their work.
If the competition for the attention of readers/viewers/listeners all began after the artist died, who was doing the competing?
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What hermits do at home alone, has no social aspect to it, thus there is no competition.
There is also to master, no slaves, and no truce, equality or anything social at all.
That is the same as if Hegel's two "I"s never met each other and each just continued to hold itself as the sole and supreme unique creator and benefactor of all things.
Yes the two can ignore each other, however, one will find competition and limits to one's whims in the nature of the world itself, thus one discovers the True WILL in a Man vs nature fight. Sometimes man invents fire or wings other times man dies in the snow or falls off the cliff. "Some times you eat the bear and some times the bear eats you". Only by running up against the bear do you discover if you are a bear slayer or a bear dinner. Success is thy proof.
Only by fighting do you discover your place in the pecking order. What your caste is. It can't be assigned to you some one's whim, you can't just decide that you "deserve" some sort of place or rights and everyone must be nice, must grant you those rights and that social status.
YOU have to fight for it, you may fail, you may die, you may get your arse kicked and submit to a stronger person, you may simply loose face and crawl home with your tail between your legs. OR Maybe you will meet the challenge, you will bask in the glory as your opponent cowers before you. You may laugh in mockery as you foe runs home crying. Or You and your opponent may fight to a draw and make a treaty, agreeing to stop fighting, and draw up conditional surrender.
What a Thelemite will never do is whine, BUT I HAVE A RIGHT TO X. and expect that anyone or any organization or God or anything Owes anyone anything that they did not Earn in a fair fight.
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But your world is hypothetical. People are born into wealth and luxury every day, without fighting for them.
"one discovers the True WILL in a Man vs nature fight"
""Some times you eat the bear and some times the bear eats you""
Read what you've written.
You recognize that the "victory" is temporary. It's a long game of back-and-forth between one side and the other.
You call them True Will and nature. But you're labeling the wrong thing True Will.
True will isn't man's consciousness, and it isn't the unconsciousness of nature. It's a product of the two in unison.
We're supposed to fight, but not fool ourselves into thinking one side should have a total victory.
If you keep playing them as a zero-sum game, you will be the house divided against itself.
Instead, try using them as each others sparring partners. Use competition, training, critique in an ultimately constructive relationship, and see what happens.
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Yes, but the zero side is whole.
The plus 1 and the minus 1 are each incomplete.
And, as long as we keep identifying with the plus 1 or the minus 1, so will we be... -
The ideal is to take and be taken from, to keep the rope taught between people.
If people stop pulling and instead give eachother the rope, the whole game of tug-o-war ends. The dynamic tension is broken.
It is that tension that allows for complex structures to be built. The tension between master and slave is what drives society, it's the passion and drive that pushes people to get out of bed. If we have no feeling of weakness to over come or no need to thwart the cunning of the slaves, what purpose has life. We will live quiet, life of ease without toil or purpose. lay around fat and drunk and and tickle ourselves with feathers while yawing allot or whatever.
That is no kind of life. The reason people get out of bed to work, to play, to write, to dance, is to ONE UP others to prove their worth and ability to others. To pull the ropes. Without fighting, why bother to do anything at all?
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Now, just realize that the tension exists within your microcosm.
Yes, you must keep the tension. Tension means that the fight is unresolved.
If the impulse of animal nature succeeds at completely bypassing the discipline of consciousness, then we get the results you describe.
If the discipline of ego-consciousness succeeds at completely conquering our unconscious nature, then we lose our libido. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
Let them fight like brothers!
Eventually though, we must marry.
Here's the Marriage collect from the gnostic mass
"Upon all that this day unite with love under will let fall success; may strength and skill unite to bring forth ecstasy, and beauty answer beauty."