Thelema And Lust/Sensual Pleasures
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@Alexander said
"How does this apply to removing the ego and finding your True Will? Isn't it contradicting? Or am I getting confused?"
I'm perplexed that you equate "finding your True Will" with "removing the ego." It's nearly the opposite!
I could answer your question in several ways - the instruction, for example, is a perfect instruction in "losing oneself." But, rather than answering the question I needed to observe that I dispute the validity of the question.
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Who said your True Will is opposed to sensual pleasures?
Remember, it's a path, connecting actions from one moment to the next.
I think all Nephesh-level desires could potentially be used as expressions of Will.Don't forget Liber Legis, II:22: "I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness. To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all. It is a lie, this folly against self. The exposure of innocence is a lie.** Be strong, o man! lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for this.**"
[Emphasis added]
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first you need to understand love,love is losing oneself in another....you have to let go. its not that you have to get rid of your ego,you need to rid all the muck and clutter clouding your true will. sincere love is another step towards that,the middle way is our way. you dont want to be at one extreme(hedonism) or the other(asceticism) you want to be on the middle path of balance.
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double-plus good.
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Okay so essentially you guys are saying that Yoga, etc. is removing the extra-stuff from your true Self? How would you be able to differentiate between removing the false ego, and removing the ego entirely; because isn't that what the Buddha and many other Yogi's taught? A lot of Samael Weor's teachings also say to remove the "i" or the "ego". Or are Buddha's teachings the same as discovering your pure will?
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@Alexander said
"Okay so essentially you guys are saying that Yoga, etc. is removing the extra-stuff from your true Self? How would you be able to differentiate between removing the false ego, and removing the ego entirely; because isn't that what the Buddha and many other Yogi's taught? A lot of Samael Weor's teachings also say to remove the "i" or the "ego". Or are Buddha's teachings the same as discovering your pure will?"
Have your read this?
deoxy.org/annex/Eight_Lectures_on_Yoga.pdf
Your answers may be there.
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@Alexander said
"Okay so essentially you guys are saying that Yoga, etc. is removing the extra-stuff from your true Self? How would you be able to differentiate between removing the false ego, and removing the ego entirely; because isn't that what the Buddha and many other Yogi's taught? A lot of Samael Weor's teachings also say to remove the "i" or the "ego". Or are Buddha's teachings the same as discovering your pure will?"
Not that I'm formally Initiated or anything, but these questions appear to be stemming from too much eclecticism and theory, and not enough practice.
(I do the same thing, perpetually.)Try the practices of Yoga and then tell us what you think they accomplish.
Nothing is inherently evil - it is only evil as far as a specific goal is concerned. You can't really declare much in your personality or behavior "evil" until you know what goal you're trying to accomplish, your Will.
Also, I think every person will define "ego" differently. The ego is not to be removed, it is to be strengthened in preperation for its eventual submission to that which is superior to it, the Voice of its Lord, the HGA.
Technically, your entire personality is "extra stuff" from the perspective of your True Self.
Conclusion: Slow down; more practice, less theory =p
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Yes I have read the Eight Lectures, but I am still rather confused about the idea. Nirvana is union of subject and object, or self with supreme being, correct? So, Magick is working beyond this union? In other words, once we achieve enlightenment, we must continue in the practice of Magick? I am sorry if my questions are in ignorant nature, it just seems that I am unable to find what I am looking for, nevertheless, I am not neglecting practice. It is just hard to continue on when your mind is not "at ease", I suppose, with where it is going.
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"Every intentional act is a Magical act."
If you continue to breathe even after attaining Samadhi/Nirvanic consciousness, you're performing Magick.
"Enlightenment" can mean many different stages, and one still is doing one's Will after attaining these stages.
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Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.
Do that, and no other shall say nay.
For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.
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That still leaves me confused, isn't the end goal to reach the higher self? If the self is pure on its own with no attachments to the extra ego, wouldn't there be an elimination of desires?
I seem to be very confused about the road of Magick vs Eastern philosophy. In Eastern thought, it seems to me that the steps are quite simple and proceed like this: normal life (pain, suffering etc) -> liberation or union with the universe, all desires are quenched.
How does Magick fall into the scheme of things because from what I have read, the goals are similar. How can one enjoy sensual pleasures like it is said in The Book of the Law when you have "transcended" duality? I have read a lot of Thelema scripts, but the answers seem to conflict in my head.
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@Alexander said
"I seem to be very confused about the road of Magick vs Eastern philosophy. In Eastern thought, it seems to me that the steps are quite simple and proceed like this: normal life (pain, suffering etc) -> liberation or union with the universe, all desires are quenched."
excerpt from postcard to probationers:
"YOGA AND MAGIC
I. Yoga is the art of uniting the mind to a single idea. It has four methods.
Gnana-Yoga. Union by Knowledge.
Raja-Yoga. Union by Will.
Bhakta-Yoga. Union by Love.
Hatha-Yoga. Union by Courage.
add Mantra-Yoga. Union through Speech.
Karma-Yoga. Union through Work.These are united by the supreme method of Silence.
II. Ceremonial Magic is the art of uniting the mind to a single idea.
It has four Methods.
The Holy Qabalah. Union by Knowledge.
The Sacred Magic. Union by Will.
The Acts of Worship. Union by Love.
The Ordeals. Union by Courage.
add The Invocations. Union by Speech.
The Acts of Service. Union through Work." -
"YOGA AND MAGIC
I. Yoga is the art of uniting the mind to a single idea. It has four methods.
Gnana-Yoga. Union by Knowledge.
Raja-Yoga. Union by Will.
Bhakta-Yoga. Union by Love.
Hatha-Yoga. Union by Courage.
add Mantra-Yoga. Union through Speech.
Karma-Yoga. Union through Work.These are united by the supreme method of Silence.
II. Ceremonial Magic is the art of uniting the mind to a single idea.
It has four Methods.
The Holy Qabalah. Union by Knowledge.
The Sacred Magic. Union by Will.
The Acts of Worship. Union by Love.
The Ordeals. Union by Courage.
add The Invocations. Union by Speech.
The Acts of Service. Union through Work."
"Is this single idea liberation? Or is it supposed to be whatever your mind chooses?
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@Alexander said
"That still leaves me confused, isn't the end goal to reach the higher self? If the self is pure on its own with no attachments to the extra ego, wouldn't there be an elimination of desires? "
Don't forget, Will is the Will-to-Love. How can one love without desiring what they will be uniting with?
In De Lege Libellum, Crowley compares casual pleasures to distractions during a play, the play, of course, being the play of your life. If you are bored of the play and are disliking it, the distractions will be welcomed - much like texting during a high school assembly you didn't want to attend. If you enjoy the play, you will find these distractions annoying, and become angry with them, for you are focused on the play and they are just that - distractions.
After a certain point, however, one no longer is controlled by these little pleasures, and neither finds them distracting nor annoying. One has mastered them - they are slaves. One can toy with them as much as one wants without ever being controlled by them; one can throw them away at a moment's notice and focus 100% on the work at hand.
The human machine isn't of perfect efficiency; constant work without breaks and distractions becomes self-defeating and inefficient. Breaks, little distractions, small pleasures help support the Work at hand by allowing parts of the ego to get distracted - like temporarily rotating tires on your car so that they don't just wear a hole in one particular track.
I'll give an example. This college semester has been extremely hard on me, and I've been constantly doing either homework or working long, hard, exhausting hours at my job. It's been wearing me down tremendously. I took a break last Wednesday, and vowed to do nothing related to school or work - just enjoy myself and hang out, being unproductive.
My mood soared after this one day of relaxation, and allowed me to efficiently accomplish my work the days since; if I didn't do it, I would be a wreck by now, totally overwhelmed and exhausted.
The Path isn't all roses to the ego - many parts of it are downright excruciating, let me tell you. My focus on my Work benefits tremendously from taking a break sometimes and being "unproductive," which allows me time to assimilate everything.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Alexander said
"That still leaves me confused, isn't the end goal to reach the higher self? If the self is pure on its own with no attachments to the extra ego, wouldn't there be an elimination of desires? "
From one perspective, the goal could be considered "Nuit", and the desire, "Hadit". Union of these could be considered the Aim.
@Alexander said
"Is this single idea liberation? Or is it supposed to be whatever your mind chooses?"
Mind, in this context, could be considered inside the realm of perspectives. Perspectives can sometimes lead to a duality (non-union).
Love is the law, love under will.
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"Is this single idea liberation? Or is it supposed to be whatever your mind chooses?"
It is to show that there is no difference, two different recipes to produce the same brew...
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"I insist that in private life men should not admit their passions to be an end, indulging them and so degrading themselves to the level of the other animals, or suppressing them and creating neuroses. I insist that every thought, word and deed should be consciously devoted to the service of the Great Work. ‘Whatsoever ye do, whether ye eat or drink, do all to the glory of God’."
— The Confessions of Aleister CrowleyAccording to Crowley, everything is sinful unless it's done with the goal of the Magnum Opus, the Great Work. Technically, Thelema is a Right-Hand Path religion, so its followers are expacted to seek more than plain gratification of the flesh. If earthly lust is all that drives you, you'll probably feel more comfortable with such religions as LaVeyan Satanism.
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@Mortimer Lanin said
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Technically, Thelema is a Right-Hand Path religion, so its followers are expacted to seek more than plain gratification of the flesh. "The Snake winds its way along all the Paths.
Two main ideas to consider:
(I) Freedom from the lust of result. Do not drink wine simply to get drunk, drink wine if you find pleasure in the act.
(II) Refinement of rapture. Do not guzzle the bottle of wine - sip it, allow its scents and flavors to reveal themselves to you.The Ego is not destroyed, it is purified ; that perceptions may pass through unabated.