Questions on Asana, and other preliminaries
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I'm sorry Alrah, I didn't mean "take what they say" as law - I meant "take it as that's what they want to do." It's just that I see you poo-pooing the various practices.
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@Alrah said
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@malnarcissis said
"93,Backs up a bit
I knew I was missing the tone other people were using
93 93/93"
Stick around. I'm sure you'll get used to it. :/"
93,
XD, it's not that I'm not used to it, the opposite actually.
I just have the tendency to be oblivious as to when people are actually arguing, as I spend most of my time in positions where I am debating, or at the very least arguing without being passionate [That is, I can look passionate, but odds are, I'm not- just using the words.]
Alrah, in regards to "Malnarcissis advocates the enlightenment again... yawn. Reason as the supreme being and the animal as the Gnostic Evil Malkuth! Scuses me - but {****} that!"
Read what I typed again. If you don't read what you think I am saying into it, you'll know that's the opposite of what I said. In your same terminology, I'm advocating putting "The Gnostic Evil Malkuth," on a leash and forcing it to do what it should be doing, as it serves a purpose, too. It's just "Lost." I'm not advocating it as the negative, but rather a piece of us that is not needed to function on a more human level [That is, those things being that which humans excel at, not some fancy abstract]. Maybe it's just my typing style [When I put things in brackets, I am attempting to clarify my terminology, as I am aware that it is not necessarily the words I want, but can function as such].
Though, I find it entirely upsetting that you've made such assumptions just because I choose to use reason when it should be used- when communicating with others.
93 93/93
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@Alrah said
"Aye Takamba, but would you want to see my hand when I play poker too?
Look - I'm slightly tipsy here, and mellow as can be. I'm just going to say that I'm a Geordie lass, and I say it as I see it. Perhaps this is a cultural misunderstanding as much as anything?"
Perhaps we can make the famous excuse "communication on the Internet is difficult" but I never bought into that. It's no different than writing a letter (and if you can't do that without
being required, you aren't as good at communicating as you think). But that's just an aside as far as I am concerned. And no, I wouldn't want to see your hand if we were playing poker, because then i wouldn't be playing poker - I'd just be taking your money. -
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I know, malnarcissist. But I don't see the Flesh or the Devil as Evil. I see them as energy. And for all you deny there is any moral conotations to your own personal theology - I don't quite believe you. Perhaps I may grow to believe you over time, but you signal a number of 'tells' to me at this point that makes me wary about the roots of your own personal philosophy.
"Tells? Such as? I wouldn't say I have moral components to it [As morality is not a fit quality to this at all, really] , rather I am convinced that there is something to every human culture ever seeking to transcend their bodies limitations in a religious sense [And in a technological sense, now]. If you don't like my method of syncreticism, I don't blame you- I don't always either, but I am convicted. XD. The personal philosophy I've been playing with is absurd. I've taken to calling it "Stoic Epicurianism."
Though, I am well aware of the differences it has from the norm of both of them.Though, I would like to point out, I don't view either of those things as evil [I'll use the word, though I prefer "Not useful
], either. The idea stands though, that those 'forces' tend to be very distracting- I should feed my body, but if it chooses the wrong time to send that signal, then it can deal with it- same with anything else. Now, note, just because I haven't noted it here doesn't mean I don't feel the way about other parts of the psyche, too. It's just not part of my work load, today [Well, it is, but not in anyway that is interesting to anyone who isn't trying to overcome a dislike of Modern Education, but requires it to do what he wants]"We diverge in our understanding again. I don't see them as 'lost'. At all.
But I love the Tibetan Crazy Wisdom adepts. = You wanna ride the horse? - Then guide the horse. You wanna guide the horse? Then be the horse. You wanna be the horse? - Then ride and don't ask so many daft questions!
cue musica
"Eh, I can see how one wouldn't view them as such, per se, and perhaps it was a bad word [Though, I like it as it implies what I want it to]. By lost, I mean as if referring to the people on The Devil as such [Assuming RW imagery, but I feel the CT conveys it, too]. That is, trapped in a world of sensation, but unwilling to pull out even for a moment just to see what could be available if corporeality were not a hinderence [Notice, I said nothing about being non-corporeal ;p] [Also, is it just me, or has my typing become very much like reading a text with too many foot notes?]
Lol, I like that Tibetan thing, though I have to ask "Why not just become the horse instead of riding it?"
Take that to mean what you Will."As assumption is a tool of reason, and you say it should be used when communicating with others, then why get upset about it's mere reflection?"
No, an assumption is not reasonable. An assumption is when reason has been led to the place where it dies [Even in the physical sciences, this is inevitable, as unless you have all the data, you're going to fill some in yourself if it SOUNDS reasonable]. While that may be good in some places, I don't think it helps with the conveyance of information Postcards to Probationers too literally ;p], unless all parties have decided to do some drugs first [And as far as I know, not all of us have. Maybe], the unreasonable transference of ideas is prone to 'mishaps'.
XD, though, I'm sure we could have a lot of fun with reason as a topic- I know I've confused myself with it at times.
93 93/93
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Alrah,93,
"Ok... Cultural understanding is not difficult....!.........
...Do you know why the FU is two fingers?"
The two-finger salute is essentially unknown outside of the UK, and thus creates a problem with cultural understanding. A one-finger salute is prevalent in all of North America, Mexico included.
You're welcome!
93 93/93,
Edward
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All reason is really is a best guess. So why should reason not die when it's brother - assumption is cast to the dogs?"No. That implies that reason is something it isn't. Reason is not some thing that has been resolved, rather it is a process- this thing happens, so then this must [Did, whichever tense]. To say it's a guess is like saying the way one ties their shoes is a guess. Among other things, mostly relating to how thought is understood.
I didn't say reason shouldn't die. A discussion is just not the place for it to do so. While I would say in 10 minutes, it has a good reason to not be present [For me, any way], but until then it needs to be used in it's correct sphere [Not using that word in any mystical sense]. Of course, that's my opinion, naturally, so reason has died due to the mere discussion of it
XD. My question I'd pose in the Horse story is essentially an attempt at trying to state the obvious- if you tell me to become the horse, then you'd best have some way to turn me into a horse, otherwise you wasted energy in getting my hopes up
Of course, I don't think I'd make a good horse. I'm too afraid of them, so I'd never figure out any horse activities.Edit- Retrospect is beginning to tell me that here, and other places, that generally when I say something without a type of clairifier, I'm really only just saying that thing
Also, how strict is the forum here? Have I managed to break ToS yet, or is free discussion okay?93 93/93
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alrah and friends, theres not a lot of evidence that giving someone the finger comes from any aspect of the Hundred Years" War or English longbowmen. I'm not trying to be argumentative im just bored at work.
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@malnarcissis said
"93,
Thanks, Jim. I understand that the method of Jvgorvm is quite... Dated, however, in experience I learn more from punishment, than reward Shrug
93 93/93"
I think this is individual. I always like those people who like punishment, because I give it expansively.But, for most people, positive reinforcement is better. And then there are those people, who don't have to either punish themselves or reinforce, only take note.
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@Alrah said
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@AEternitas1 said
"just pointing out that the practice is a vital part of mystical training"Outside of Thelema, I don't hear the sound of twanging elastic bands.
I've heard that priests often used to flog themselves mercilessly in the dark ages...
I'm really not all too sure abut what qualifies as vital to mystical training for people. One man will call lots of sex, gambling, drinking and smoking weed 'vital' to their mystical training, while to another man - he'd have to turn celibate, renounce the world and the pleasures of the flesh for it to count as 'mystical' to him.
Both approaches seem to be alive and well in both Buddhism (at least in Tibet) and in Thelema."
Aside from the general training of the will, Liber 3 forms an experimental version of the practices of Yama and Niyama. Neither practice has anything to do with "moral training."
By mystical training I am referring to the practices of Raja Yoga in specific.
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How is that not successful?
He decided that he would avoid behavior x, for y period of time, and for every slip, engage in z response. He did x, y, and z as he agreed to. Ergo, he succeeded at his intention.
If one could do the practice without any slips, one wouldn't exactly have any reason to do the practice in the first place, now, would they?
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What do you call going from 24 slips a day to 7 slips a day? (EDIT: or rather 12 a day to 7 a day)
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Actually Alrah, you still didn't read your source carefully enough.
It was 7 slips on the last day, not 14.
The Saturday/Sunday total was 24, so I'll just average them as 12 each, since I don't know how many slips happened each day.
You have
Sat-12
Sun-12
Mon-12
Tue-7
Wed-10
Thur-5
Fri-7
Sat-7Graph and analyze that set of data and you find that no matter how you cut it, the trendline is down.
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/152/42609876.jpg"Thursday 7
Began V.I.T.R.I.O.L.
Beat Sunny Jim by 7 & 5 at h a stroke.
Wrote to D.D.S. asking for permission to do a Vow of Silence and to appoint a period.Friday 8
Sculping. Daleth or rather Chesed.
Saturday 9
**9.0 P.M. Began vow **of Refusing to answer questions. D.D.S. says 7 days. A slip is to be punished with a razor-cut.
Rose is very angry, of course.
One notices in Refusing to Answer Questions that nearly everything said to one is a question.
One notices that 5 years ago one would have called all the Gods to witness a majestic ceremonial Vow; at present one determines, & begins forthwith.
One may use this formula to battle against and overcome the Great DevilOne should consider before speaking at all whether the speech is both necessary and unimportant; for unless these conditions are fulfilled one breaks the Vow of Silence, of which this is a branch.
One has been in fighting form all day, but this formula gives one an idea of tremendous controlled force.day.
All things are wonderful to me. I know that I am on the very threshold of Binah; that henceforth I shall go about my ways in utter delight and praise. Hail!
This matter of R[efusing] to A[nswer] Q resolves itself into a vigilance over speech. It is thus a much harder task than plain Silence; for interest in the conversation betrayeth this vigilance.
It has struck me that ``the Black Magician abstains from salt'' is Tohu-Bohu. The abstainer from salt did so to work evil without becoming nimak-kharam. Hence he was suspected of sorcery.Sunday 10
Playing golf at Maidenhead. Very trying this Vow of R. to A.Q. 24 slips in the Practice till now.
Monday 11
Took at 10.24 P.M. a minute quantity of Hashish --- too small to have any possible effect, one would say, judging by previous experience.
11.30 ended in D.F.D.'s luring me away also I nearly slept. Rose & had tea & now write this. I think the hashish has had little or no effect perhaps just less than the desired waking of Pratyahara. But no hallucinations; no loss of time-sense. Possibly slight self-consciousness; but one wouldn't like to assert it.
12 Slips during Monday.Tuesday 12
7 slips in the Practice.
At 10 P.M. about, the minimum dose of F.E. Anhalonium Lewinii being 2 drops, took 1 drop only.
TAROT drew 3 of Cups (curiously enough the card re Tankerville said by D.D.S. to be Black Magic) ``Abundance''.
Before taking drug, I note my physical condition excellent, my mental depressed from not being able to write what I want to, my magical exalted and on the verge of Samadhi. See opposite.
10.15 As stated opposite took 1 drop A[nhalonium] L[ewinii] in a good deal of warm water. The taste is not unpleasant; it is very strongly reminiscent of the tea of Yunnan, as there prepared and drunk.
I proceed to
10.35 Am busying myself with colour-thoughts of divine nature; and the A.L. having produced no perceptible result whatever took 1 drop more.
10.55 Still no apparent result. Took 2 drops.
Possibly the Violet centres are stimulated. I see the flame of a match with green blue & violet at its edge. Probably this is mere Pratyahara resulting from intention to attain. Closing the eyes produces no result.
11.7 Striking the magic Bell, closed eyes, I saw an opalescent light, not well marked. Further I had seen some fine opal matrix in Bond St a few hours earlier.
11.27 Have made and drunk much tea. No symptom whatever from the A.L.
11.30 Took 3 drops more.
11.50 No symptom. Took 3 drops more. 10 drops in all. This being max dose, mentioned on label, will take no more.
See page 208.
March 12 cont. 13th Midnight.15. Conc--n not interfered with by drug. Maybe one gets occasional brilliant pictures with eyes shut; but it is not enough to record. I could get as good with plain expectation. Am apparently very sleepy. Pupils certainly not dilated. Eyes bloodshot, which is no surprise, after staring hard at the electric globe for over 10 minutes.
[March, 1907]
12.30 A.M. Went astral tour no colour effects to speak of.
9.30 A.M. Nothing whatever unusual.
Wednesday 13
An excellent day. Buckmasters charming.
Sculping. Taw or Gimel-Beth-Vau-Resh-He for R[ose] made a scene.
10 breaks in practice.
I d Rose and slept like a dog_____________Thursday 14
Gave Sunny Jim 13 & won by 2 & also the Bye.
Refused to write or wire. Rough on Rats!
5 slips in the Practice.Friday 15
7 slips in the Practice.
Peh-Aleph-Resh-Taw Theory perfect. Practice He{Hebrew} with Yod to Yod sanctum. Yod with Yod and Pe to the Blessed Fount of the Supernal Via Lactea, so that at 9.15 P.M. I took 4 drops F.E. Anhalonium Lewinii in cold water.
Am rather tired with my day's shopping, but peaceful & well.
9.40 Took 5 drops.
10.0 _____ _____.
10.27 _____ _____.
11.3 Accommodation of age still perfect.
Took 7 drops.
No result; but felt as if near something. Also slight stomachic discomfort.
Saturday 16
Cambridge won the Boat Race. A grand fight of the Empire.
7 slips in the Practice (72 in all). End thereof at 9.0 P.M. A letter from D.D.S.
Moreover I did demonstrate my superiority to the warring factions of Netzach & Hod by formulating Yesod in the number Yod-Vau-Dalet." -
Or, you don't like Jugorum, and were looking for confirmation in the data, rather than letting the data speak.
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I don't see anyone claiming that practicing Jugorum for one week ought to result in perfection.
If we're going to invent the criteria for success after the fact, why stop at saying one week? I would imagine that 3 cuts, and one should be cured of the tendency to act thoughtlessly!
However, I think halving your mistakes in a week is pretty good success.
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Interesting thread. I know I'm going to hate myself for jumping in.
@Alrah said
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"However, I think halving your mistakes in a week is pretty good success."We're going to have to agree to disagree about this Av. I don't think cutting yourself 72 times is indicative of any type of success and I don't think you've shown that he halved his mistakes in a week due to using a razor. Some reduction would be expected through just exercising willpower (sans razor) after all. For me - success would have been indicated by him not slipping up and cutting himself if the razor had proved to be an effect deterent.
I don't think I'll be using this method to quit smoking!
"I did this in my late teens. I used a razor until I read a recommendation from Israel Regardie, I think, that you could use one of those joke books titled "Secrets to Great Sex," or something similar. Opening the book provided an electric shock, powered by an A battery. Honestly, the shock was much more unnerving than the razor, but this was late in the practice—I still have many beautiful scars on my forearms to prove my resolve at the time.
By the end I was able to manage a whole week of not thinking about anything related to what I imagined at the time was a difficult topic, sex. No mean feat for a teenager!
So. I've been following this thread, and trying to imagine how I might conceivably do something similar through positive reinforcement, as opposed to the Jugorum method, and I am drawing a total blank. The beauty of the method is that it is totally negative—the body's aversion to pain is used to advance the person as a whole, including the body. If it is not abused, precautions are taken, and it isn't a vehicle for pathological tendencies its a win win. Being able to utter a forceful 'NO' and have ones entire being fall into line is not a trivial ability, imho.
I liken it to what I went through when going professional in my dance training and career. There comes a time when you are asked by yourself, by your teachers, and by the circumstances in your environment what you are willing to give for this thing you said you wanted, this thing you said you wanted more than anything. Invariably, you are being asked to undergo a new level of pain, and to risk everything you have accomplished up to that point. In that moment when you define a limit to what you are prepared to do, in that moment you have defined the limit of what you are capable. It might even be argued that not pushing your body to the limit is an offense to the body itself—why deny it a significant place in your ambitions, why refuse it a means of participating in your passion?
So, I'm bracing for the rotten tomatoes now...
love and will
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agreed,
and just because Crowley seems to have "failed" one single jugorum trial among probably hundreds hardly proves that this method is always ineffective for Crowley and all Thelemites. This is basic statistics; making the conclusion that jugorum doesn't work based on just one random recorded trial is quite flawed.Crowley probably did hundreds of jugorum trials alone and his followers have done thousands more, you would have to survey a good sample of all them to say anything about the results of jugroum.
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@Alrah said
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"How is that not successful?He decided that he would avoid behavior x, for y period of time, and for every slip, engage in z response. He did x, y, and z as he agreed to. Ergo, he succeeded at his intention.
If one could do the practice without any slips, one wouldn't exactly have any reason to do the practice in the first place, now, would they?"
The practise of cutting himself was meant to reinforce the practise of his Vow. It did not. Ergo - it was not successful."
What do I give about some dead man? It worked for me.
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@Alrah said
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@Takamba said
"What do I give about some dead man? It worked for me."What did you do? And is it still effective now you've removed the punishment?
If it only works when you carry a razor blade in your pocket then you're a slave to punishment."
You are totally missing the point. It's an exercise. "The object of the whole exercise is to create a sentinel to stand and watch at the threshold of the mind" The object is not to learn to never use the word "I" again.
sheesh
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@Alrah said
"This is an exceedingly strange conversation to be having with a bunch of magicians.
You are taught to be able to draw down the light and the love when needed - and that feels inherently good, pure and right.
The way to retrain your mind from unhelpful thoughts is to be vigilant and to utilize this ability.
I used to have a problem with habitual thoughts: they were an outcropping of the way I was raised by my Father. He's a Virgo. A very safety conscious man, and he used to say "be careful when you do that or... something horrible will happen". Being a visual thinker - I used to imagine the something horrible. Then when I was an adult I found my mind would go automatically into imagining dangerous outcomes of ordinary common place things. Anyway - my own mind wasn't a very pleasant place to be because of this... but because there was a habitual subroutine running in the background of my mind everytime I tried to stop it I ended up fighting a loosing battle to stop these thoughts popping up to the surface again like yellow ducks in the bath.
What I wished is for those thought to bubble up only when there was a clear need for such a warning - a drastic reduction in the frequency they would arise, so instead of fighting it I practised beng vigilant for week or two, and everytime they would start I'd cut them off by doing middle pillar. It's a conscious distraction technique to retrain the mind. After a while these bothersome thoughts stopped arising. It works for egotistic compensatory day dreams also."
Good for you.
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@Alrah said
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@RobertAllen said
"By the end I was able to manage a whole week of not thinking about anything related to what I imagined at the time was a difficult topic, sex. No mean feat for a teenager!So. I've been following this thread, and trying to imagine how I might conceivably do something similar through positive reinforcement, as opposed to the Jugorum method, and I am drawing a total blank."
Do you think you're drawing a blank because there isn't a method of either positive reinforcement or negative punishment (i.e. withdrawl of something you enjoy), or because men in society are more socialised to accept the argument of 'no pain, no gain' and were traditionally expected to adopt the role of being the disiplinarians of the family? i.e. - Mother tells child "if you don't stop that right now, I'm going to tell your Father!" I've always thought that was very unfair to men. "
I think the point is that it is just one more weapon in ones arsenal (I know, this is such a male analogy!). There are both positive and negative weapons. You seem to making the argument that Jugorum is imbalanced towards the male side of the equation. If that's all anyone ever did I would agree with you. And I do agree with you in that balance is needed. The Tree of Life has three columns, and often we can only approximate the middle pillar by balancing the two outer pillars.
I just don't see positive methods doing the exact same thing as the negative. To be totally positive is as one-sided as being totally negative. I'm not arguing that this is the only way to develop the will, and I don't think most of the other contributors are arguing that either. We do positive things all the time. The Oath is a positive act, affirming the will in the most positive terms—for forty days I will...
Nevertheless, the negative method will produce a species of control that is unlike anything the positive methods can do. So in a way, you need to take that into consideration if you are in fact striving for some kind of well rounded development.
@Alrah said
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"The beauty of the method is that it is totally negative—the body's aversion to pain is used to advance the person as a whole, including the body. If it is not abused, precautions are taken, and it isn't a vehicle for pathological tendencies its a win win. Being able to utter a forceful 'NO' and have ones entire being fall into line is not a trivial ability, imho."I felt that way about having my cats fall into line and keep off the benches - but see my chicken example above.
"I love cats. We have a cat, now fifteen years old, had her since she was a kitten—runt of the litter, but with an amazing personality. She stays off my desk, and knows she is not allowed up there. Since she figured it out she has never in many many years broken this rule. We also have a dog, a male terrier mix, ten months old. We rescued him from the street when he was four months. He is also a wonderful dog, fun, intelligent, attentive. In this relationship I'm the alpha dog, what I say goes. If he disobeys me he gets punished. At the same time, I make a point of playing with him extensively every day, or he will turn into a dispirited cur—trips to the beach, an hour or two of ball throwing, unlimited access to sleeping in my lap... He has to, he knows he as to make a positive contribution to the house or the relationship will not work. At the same time, my obligation to his health and happiness is no less sacred. This works for us—the positive carrot and the negative stick, both.
love and will