Crowley- Violator of others' Wills?
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Is it seen as inevitable that thelema will take root in one form or another no matter who messes up, because hoor was " let down into the animal soul of things"?
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I think we are apt to mistrust anyone who apparently professes one creed and diverges from that creed at the apparent expense of others. We generally argue that consistency is indicative of a stable ethic or 'spiritual' state. Crowley, like many before and after him, revealed aspects of the path before he had fully absorbed or comprehended their 'truth', in terms of living them as opposed to being able to argue or intellectualize them. It terms of the 'True Will', what did he really understand? A cat that looks through the window sees the 'Garden', but does not have the freedom to delight in it, outside of its personal 'vision'. Likewise, most of us I suspect, glimpse the 'truth' of something long before we are able to put it into effective and lasting practice. The question regarding the 'Will' is perhaps more to do with the relationship between that of the individual to that which is beyond the individual will.
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@Atzil said
"The question regarding the 'Will' is perhaps more to do with the relationship between that of the individual to that which is beyond the individual will."
You've just fallen into the most common trap here.
There is no individual will. There is only an appearance of it. (For a light-hearted treatment of this, see Prologue 2 in Visions & Voices if you choose to get it.)
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"You've just fallen into the most common trap here.
There is no individual will. There is only an appearance of it. (For a light-hearted treatment of this, see Prologue 2 in Visions & Voices if you choose to get it.)"
Ok I will choose my language more carefully
Even though I might know there is no individual will, nevertheless in the context of the thread and perhaps bearing in mind the many converstations I have had with individuals I know who are active thelamites, both in and out of Orders, it would be difficult not to refer to the individual will in terms of how that stage on the path is perceived. I might also argue as a traditional kabbalist that since there there is none else besides Him, there is only His Will. Ironically, what I was pointing to is that many misinterpret the idea of "doing one's True Will" ultimately in egoistical terms, for various reasons.
Simply pointing out to someone "there is no individual will. There is only an appearance of it" requires an
explanation...precisely how it is that the 'individual will' appears in relation to the 'reality' behind it; a philosophical concept that has engaged some of the greatest minds from various spiritual disciplines.
Thanks for the reference. I would be interested to understand more about Crowley's ideas on the nature of
the Will, particularly in how he derived it and in relation to the kabbalah that was available to him at the time. -
For me there is no trap in the context we are talking about.
However, please explain why you think there is -
That only works if you if you agree to that definition
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"Exactly what are the limits one can attain to in this life? Why should we assume Crowley didn't reach that limit in his time, because of our ethical considerations of him... insomuch that we should say he didn't understand true will??
What is the trap?
Thinking that what incarnates it's "self" as "you", is really "you".
This is not a strictly Thelemic concept, as I'm sure Crowley was aware."
These questions are, of course, very difficult to answer. And I am not proposing I can answer them. The question of 'ethical' consideration is usually a common benchmark, but I have no way of proving or disproving that such considerations are justified or true with regard to Crowley or anyone. It could be argued that my own view on Crowley or anyone is formed by what I have read, my own experience, prejudices and needs in terms of my own development. I am inclined to feel that Crowley wasn't completely 'liberated'. He may have 'understood' True Will, but understanding is, in my experience, only one component of liberation. Then again I am no adept and do not have the faintest idea of what that term is supposed to mean, despite the thousands who claim its title.
Yes, there are many variations on that theme of the trap. The Buddhist and Nyaya-Vaisesika debated extensively
on this very subject, along with numerous other schools of Indian thought. At the end of the day, we have to make a choice between the various solutions offered to escape the 'trap'. Often we change our point of view as we go along. Its an adventure, where we can sometimes share the same vista or not, or explore the limits of our own
view by debating and sharing with others from different paths. -
Here is the relevant passage (taken out of a larger essay) of the p.o.v. I referenced above:
“Will power” **at the personality level **is an illusion in exactly the same way that independent, willful action by my computer is an illusion. However, something the personality does have quite a lot of is Won’t Power. Personalities can make obfuscating choices. Obstinacy is one of our strongest “powers.” [...] This “getting in our own way” is the most skillful means we have of not listening and not responding to proper Supernal input or instruction.
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i prolly shouldnt be replying here because i havent read all the posts. but if someones true will consists in "shedding," as it were, false ego conceptions, and especially if someone came to crowley asking him to help them find their true wills, i.e. to shed false ego conceptions, and if in fact that process was taking place at least in part due to circumstances the beast initaited... would he really be violating their will.
think about cefalu. we know things werent ideal there, as far as hygiene and stuff, and i feel for raoul loveday..... but crowley did not murder him, and regardless of what his wife an family later said, i doubt mr. loveday, if indeed he could look down on us today, regrets what went on there.
someone we all admire is jane wolfe... i cant help but wonder what transformations her true self underwent, realized, initiated, etc, sitting in that room with the "demonic murals", a sort of qliphotic vault of adepts.
i wish i had been there.
93 93/93
(not to say crowleys relationship with nueburg wasnt flawed......)
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"“Will power” at the personality level is an illusion in exactly the same way that independent, willful action by my computer is an illusion. However, something the personality does have quite a lot of is Won’t Power. Personalities can make obfuscating choices. Obstinacy is one of our strongest “powers.” [...] This “getting in our own way” is the most skillful means we have of not listening and not responding to proper Supernal input or instruction."
Yes, I would agree.
Thanks for the quote
Atzilut
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"Crowley- Violator of others' Wills?"
I haven't read very much of Crowley but the little i have seems to point to a certain passivity regarding aspects of his work which would qualify as a VIOLATION by inaction or predestination; necessity. The 23rd Aethyr makes this presumption crystal - at least in my own peculiar circumstance.
Rarely, in fact twice only, have i experienced lament from Therion and this aethyr was one and his rather 'whiney' run in with inertia, the other *.
I would say that even the Beast, himself, was a victim of incapacity and sublimated the realization beneath the shiny veneer of destiny.
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@Stag-Nation said
"I haven't read very much of Crowley but the little i have seems to point to a certain passivity regarding aspects of his work which would qualify as a VIOLATION by inaction or predestination; necessity. The 23rd Aethyr makes this presumption crystal - at least in my own peculiar circumstance."
I'm curious what you mean by that. Despite my having recently written 3,400 words on the 23rd Aethyr, your point isn't self-evident to me and, perhaps, therefore is not so clear to others either.
"Rarely, in fact twice only, have i experienced lament from Therion and this aethyr was one and his rather 'whiney' run in with inertia, the other *."
Again, I probably need your help to sort this out for me. I find mostly the opposite weakness. The first eight paragraphs (nearly all of the Bull section) are proud and self-exalting. (I think falsely so, but it's the p.o.v. of the Osirian idea of masculinity.) Paragraph 9 does allude directly to lament - of Crowley? - specifically regarding change. (It's rather Buddhist, in fact.) Here is that paragraph:
@23rd Aethyr said
"For the whirlings of the universe are but the course of the blood in my heart. And the unspeakable variety thereof is but my divers hairs, and plumes, and gems in my tall crown. The change which ye lament is the life of my rejoicing, and the sorrow that blackeneth your hearts is the myriad deaths by which I am renewed. And the instability which maketh ye to fear, is the little waverings of balance by which I am assured."
The "whirlings of the universe" are the "Primal Whirlings," or Primum Mobile, which are Kether in Assiah (Rashith ha-Galgalim). The remainder of the paragraph, regarding "change" and "sorrow," refers to the Buddhist doctrines of anikka and dukkha, corresponding to Chokmah and Binah, respectively.
Is this the passage you meant? Or another?
The remaining half of the vision switches to the Eagle, and is quite glorious and rapturous.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Stag-Nation said
"I haven't read very much of Crowley but the little i have seems to point to a certain passivity regarding aspects of his work which would qualify as a VIOLATION by inaction or predestination; necessity. The 23rd Aethyr makes this presumption crystal - at least in my own peculiar circumstance."I'm curious what you mean by that. Despite my having recently written 3,400 words on the 23rd Aethyr, your point isn't self-evident to me and, perhaps, therefore is not so clear to others either."
I'm referencing an iteration of the magical child and the unavoidable coarsity endemic to its development. To be culpable insofar as knowledge of an intended corruption but being unwilling or incapable to voice protest [necessity?] which sounds as quiet lament; even pity. Of course the aethyrs are highly subjective and selective with regard to whom or what the full depth of their implication is revealed.
@23rd Aethyr said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Stag-Nation said
"Rarely, in fact twice only, have i experienced lament from Therion and this aethyr was one and his rather 'whiney' run in with inertia, the other *."Again, I probably need your help to sort this out for me. I find mostly the opposite weakness. The first eight paragraphs (nearly all of the Bull section) are proud and self-exalting. (I think falsely so, but it's the p.o.v. of the Osirian idea of masculinity.) Paragraph 9 does allude directly to lament - of Crowley? - specifically regarding change. (It's rather Buddhist, in fact.) Here is that paragraph:"
For the whirlings of the universe are but the course of the blood in my heart. And the unspeakable variety thereof is but my divers hairs, and plumes, and gems in my tall crown. The change which ye lament is the life of my rejoicing, and the sorrow that blackeneth your hearts is the myriad deaths by which I am renewed. And the instability which maketh ye to fear, is the little waverings of balance by which I am assured."
@Jim Eshelman said
"The "whirlings of the universe" are the "Primal Whirlings," or Primum Mobile, which are Kether in Assiah (Rashith ha-Galgalim). The remainder of the paragraph, regarding "change" and "sorrow," refers to the Buddhist doctrines of anikka and dukkha, corresponding to Chokmah and Binah, respectively.
Is this the passage you meant? Or another?
The remaining half of the vision switches to the Eagle, and is quite glorious and rapturous."
I make mention of only two instances in which i experienced the 'humanity', [frailty] if you will, of Crowely. Overall he was certainly a model of attainment. The Liber Aleph citing was in reference to the shame he experienced as a consequence of his willful ignoble pursuits.
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@Stag-Nation said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Stag-Nation said
"I haven't read very much of Crowley but the little i have seems to point to a certain passivity regarding aspects of his work which would qualify as a VIOLATION by inaction or predestination; necessity. The 23rd Aethyr makes this presumption crystal - at least in my own peculiar circumstance."I'm curious what you mean by that. Despite my having recently written 3,400 words on the 23rd Aethyr, your point isn't self-evident to me and, perhaps, therefore is not so clear to others either."
I'm referencing an iteration of the magical child and the unavoidable coarsity endemic to its development."
I truly don't know what you mean. The word "child" doesn't appear anywhere in the Cry of the 23rd Aethyr, and the word "children" only appears in par. 8 in the sentence, "Come ye unto me, my children, and be glad."
I'm just trying to find out what, in the Cry of the 23rd Aethyr in The Vision & the Voice, is the base of the particular characterization that you're giving to that specific vision. (I'm now wondering if you possibly meant a different aethyr, and it's not the 23rd at all.)
"To be culpable insofar as knowledge of an intended corruption but being unwilling or incapable to voice protest [necessity?] which sounds as quiet lament; even pity."
Not knowing what specific passage you mean, I have no idea whether or not I would agree with you. I suppose I agree in broad principle, but can't find anything resembling this in the vision you named.
"I make mention of only two instances in which i experienced the 'humanity', [frailty] if you will, of Crowely. Overall he was certainly a model of attainment. The Liber Aleph citing was in reference to the shame he experienced as a consequence of his willful ignoble pursuits."
I'm not asking about Liber Aleph. You specifically said that the 23rd Aethyr was one of two examples of lamentation, and you subsequently called it "whiney." I'm merely expressing my puzzlement at your characterization because I can't find anything in that specific vision that appears to me to be either of those things. Nor am I questioning your personal reaction, just trying to find the passage to which you had that reaction. Could you please quote the exact sentences in the Cry of the 23rd Aethyr which match your description of it?
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The 'whiney' reference was Liber Aleph. Forgive my lack of precision in explanation. Section 22 is what you're looking for, keeping in mind the keyword iteration.
This visceral disquisition has come to an end.
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@Stag-Nation said
"Section 22 is what you're looking for, keeping in mind the keyword iteration."
Apparently this is the passage ("iteration" does not appear anywhere in the 22nd Aethyr, so I'm going back to quoting passage on "child" - in an effort to simply have quoted here the exact sentences that have drawn the characterizations above):
"All this while the dewdrops have turned into cascades of gold finer than the eyelashes of a little child. And though the extent of the Æthyr is so enormous, one perceives each hair separately, as well as the whole thing at once. And now there is a mighty con-course of angels rushing toward me from every side, and they melt upon the surface of the egg in which I am standing in the form of the god Kneph, so that the surface of the egg is all one dazzling blaze of liquid light.
Now I move up against the tablet, – I cannot tell you with what rapture. And all the names of God, that are not known even to the angels, clothe me about.
All the seven senses are transmuted into one sense, and that sense is dissolved in itself…. (Here occurs Samadhi.) … Let me speak, O God; let me declare it… all. It is useless; my heart faints, my breath stops. There is no link between me and P.… I withdraw myself. I see the table again. [...]
And all the table burns with intolerable light; there has been no such light in any of the Æthyrs until now. And now the table draws me back into itself; I am no more. [...]
The voice of the Crowned Child, the Speech of the Babe that is hidden in the egg of blue. (Before me is the flaming Rosy Cross.) I have opened mine eye, and the universe is dissolved before me, for force is mine upper eye-lid and matter is my lower eye-lid. I gaze into the seven spaces, and there is naught.
The rest of it comes without words; and then again:
I have gone forth to war, and I have slain him that sat upon the sea, crowned with the winds. I put forth my power and he was broken. I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.
Rejoice with me, O ye Sons of the Morning; stand with me upon the Throne of Lotus; gather yourselves up unto me, and we shall play together in the fields of light. I have passed into the Kingdom of the West after my Father.
Behold! Where are now the darkness and the terror and the lamentation? For ye are born into the new Æon; ye shall not suffer death. Bind up your girdles of gold! Wreathe yourselves with garlands of my unfading flowers! In the nights we will dance together, and in the morning we will go forth to war; for, as my Father liveth that was dead, so do I live and shall never die."
Totally self-loathing and lamenting.
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Is it plausible that there may be in fact 5 planes of existence? A plane more dense than the one in which we exist?
aethyr 23 section 22... 
edit: aethyr 22 ismighty fine...
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@Stag-Nation said
"Is it plausible that there may be in fact 5 planes of existence? A plane more dense than the one in which we exist?
aethyr 23 section 22... edit: aethyr 22 ismighty fine..."
Yes, that's one valid way of modelling it. Usually, though, this Q'lippothic realm is regarded as a very dense part of Assiah; but, as a mental construct, it's often functional to think of that as a denser world of its own. (Consider the category of "adolescence," where those adolescents in high school clearly think of middle school / junior high kids as existing on a lower plane <g>.)
(PS - Aethyr 23 only has 16 paragraphs.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Here is the relevant passage (taken out of a larger essay) of the p.o.v. I referenced above:
“Will power” **at the personality level **is an illusion in exactly the same way that independent, willful action by my computer is an illusion. However, something the personality does have quite a lot of is Won’t Power. Personalities can make obfuscating choices. Obstinacy is one of our strongest “powers.” [...] This “getting in our own way” is the most skillful means we have of not listening and not responding to proper Supernal input or instruction."
Hi Jim,
This is probably needs a long complicated answer, but in keeping with the thread topic - I'm curious how those who are spiritually advanced (adepts, masters, even those just a bit above the average joe) are able to have personality faults. I have read Eye in the Triangle and Regardie makes some statement to the effect that the daily personality and preferences don't change (he lists a food preference as an example) after enlightenment. I'm trying to get a sense for what separate's one's personality before and after enlightenment, or just spiritual advancement of whatever significant sort. For example, I am assuming there is much more compassion for people and the world in general, yet I'm also going to bet that adepts, etc. get just as furiously pissed off when people cut them off driving or attack their egos as they did before their advancement. I'm wondering fundamentally about the personality's relationship to one's spiritual progress. -
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