The Thelemic Christian
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"Look at the Golden Dawn system:p Seems to "reek" of christianity.
Now I am certain I just offended someone but thats not my intention."
Nothing offensive, there - the Golden Dawn, as it existed in the late 1800s in the last Aeon, definitely expressed its mysteries in Christian language, symbols, and linkages.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"Look at the Golden Dawn system:p Seems to "reek" of christianity.Now I am certain I just offended someone but thats not my intention."
Nothing offensive, there - the Golden Dawn, as it existed in the late 1800s in the last Aeon, definitely expressed its mysteries in Christian language, symbols, and linkages."
I suppose the OTO would have been Christian themed at one point as well. I would not expect the revelation that the Golden Dawn was/is Old Aeon formula to be much of a surprise to most people commenting on this forum.
Anyway, I personally don't think this observation will lead to much debate and comment outside of stating the well worn facts. Not what I was going for when I started the thread. I was initially thinking of something much more mundane and everyday—nasty Christians versus nice Christians; and also, what is essential to being a Thelmite from a Thelemites point of view?
It seems to me that traditional approaches to Christian beliefs are under as much pressure to change as anything else, especially if they want to maintain any real relevance as social norms and scientific paradigms change. Conversely, to what extent do we recognize individual efforts by people who are clearly enlightened and 'up to date' in terms of how they view the world, even if they have never heard of The Book of the Law.
Consider this hypothetical case, which is not so far outside the realm of possibility. Suppose the Catholic Church were to make a few changes: ordain woman as priests and open the possibilities to advancement, possibly even accepting the fact that it might one day have a female pope; the elevation of Mary, the mother of Christ to a status that is co-equal to that of God the Father—the church is already the bride of Christ; and switch their emphasis from Christ the God who died for the sins of the world to Christ the risen and glorified deity who destroyed death forever—the crucifixion, while necessary, is now over and done with?
What else would it take to bring this old Aeon religion up to date with new Aeon principles?
The facts: Mary-ology is a growing force in the church; there are powerful factions in Catholicism that have and are continuing to lobby for female ordination; the reorientation of the Christ symbol is already part of certain protestant sects and doesn't overtly change much, if anything about how the figure is currently being worshiped.
The reality is that there are also very conservative forces in the church so I don't expect this to happen with Catholicism, but some version of it might, for some christian body somewhere.
Love and Will
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93 93/93
"Anyway, I personally don't think this observation will lead to much debate and comment outside of stating the well worn facts. Not what I was going for when I started the thread. I was initially thinking of something much more mundane and everyday—nasty Christians versus nice Christians; and also, what is essential to being a Thelmite from a Thelemites point of view?
"I was mentioning the GD system because I know several Christians who study and agree with its principles. I think this is one of many gates that a christian can open to find Thelema. I think freemasonary is also a gate for christians.
Because IAO is incorperated into our magickal system, Christians who "truely" want to know "G-D" will always have a way in:)
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"Because IAO is incorperated into our magical system, Christians who "truely" want to know "G-D" will always have a way in:) "
I've noticed other places where you equate IAO with Christianity. FWIW, I certainly do not. It's a far more universal formula, of which its passage through Christianity is merely one phase of its existence. IAO is arguably the most primal formula of the Thelemic deities that there isl
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93 93/93
@Jim Eshelman said
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"Because IAO is incorperated into our magical system, Christians who "truely" want to know "G-D" will always have a way in:) "I've noticed other places where you equate IAO with Christianity. FWIW, I certainly do not. It's a far more universal formula, of which its passage through Christianity is merely one phase of its existence. IAO is arguably the most primal formula of the Thelemic deities that there isl"
Yes. You caught me:p
I do equate IAO with "true" Christianity.
Isis=Asi=Life
Apothis=Death
Osirus=Asar=ResurectionThis seems to capture the essence of christianity to me.
That said I don't find anything wrong with it. As part of my grade work I have used this formula....A.Sh.A. as well as A.S.A.
Forgive me for not being clear.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"Isis=Asi=Life
Apothis=Death
Osirus=Asar=ResurectionThis seems to capture the essence of christianity to me."
That's definitely a Christian interpretation of IAO
But it's not the only one. IAO is a Greek word of power that is primarily a Divine Name of the Sun and of ecstasy. (In fact, the same letters are the notariqon of the composite Name atributed to Tiphereth, IHVH ALVH VDOTh).
See the first footnote in Chapter 5 of Magick in Theory & Practice, the chapter on IAO - there are some real eye-openers in that footnote!
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93 93/93
"That's definitely a Christian interpretation of IAO
But it's not the only one. IAO is a Greek word of power that is primarily a Divine Name of the Sun and of ecstasy. (In fact, the same letters are the notariqon of the composite Name atributed to Tiphereth, IHVH ALVH VDOTh).
See the first footnote in Chapter 5 of Magick in Theory & Practice, the chapter on IAO - there are some real eye-openers in that footnote!"
I know exactly what you mean. When I spoke of A.Sh.A. and A.S.A. I meant the concept of the Mother, Father, and Child(ofc I am certain you already knew that
)It is just wierd because though i did just wright that post, I didn't "really" associate A.Sh.A. or A.S.A. to IAO.....like I said, wierd:p
But now I see that IAO, A.Sh.A., and A.S.A. are really all the same:p This didnt take a lot of study.As soon as I read the 1st footnote it was like a lightbulb coming on:p
No lie, No BS.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
Edited: I was setting here thinking and it occured to me that A.Sh.A. could be said to be the simplist form of IAO. Just a thought......
Also I am bond by Oath to not reveal the "word" of A.Sh.A. and A.S.A. but I am sure it would be easy to figure out what I am talking about if you assume I really do Understand IAO.
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93 93/93
Something else I was thinking about(the flashbulbs are going off). All the formulas I mentioned always start with the Mother/Child of stability.Motion( not really a good description)/Father.
But if you look at the Tree, Wisdom always comes before Understanding. Also, Liber B has been associated, in INITIATION, with the Mother even though it pertains to the Grade of Magus(though Bet/House can be associated with the Mother). I could go on and on but there really isnt any need.
It is almost like looking in the mirror......very wierd:p
What do you think about this Jim?
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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Look at the Tree in the natural course of progress, i.e., from the bottom up.
Form always precedes Force. (In practical terms, you need to establish proper form in order to attract or free force.)
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93 93/93
"Form always precedes Force. (In practical terms, you need to establish proper form in order to attract or free force.)"
ty for the answer:)
Form/Force/Fire
But i think I would see it like this:
Form/Fire/Force
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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I am of the opinion that the liberal trend of Christianity (and the Pentecostals, to a degree) represents a similar adaptation to the Aeon. After all, for a lot of the Christians I know, were you to say to them
@Aleister Crowley said
"Christianity and other cognate religions worship death, glorify suffering, deify corpses."
they would respond: "I don't believe that at all." In other words, modern liberal Christianity seems to focus more on the life-affirming Child than the Dying God.
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93 93/93 A.'.A.'.
Well, when u plug a lamp into a socket that has no energy, you dont get light.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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When you put in batteries the wrong way, you get no power.
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Why not just pluck the pretty feathers off the ol bird for decoration?
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I was just thinking about this thread last night, when I came across this passage in Confessions... kind of a slightly different vision of the Christ, seen from, a more Chokmah-esque point-of-view
"As an example of actual intellectual illumination, however, I may quote the very impressive identification of the Christ of the gospels with Mercury. This came as a complete surprise, we having till then considered him as an entirely solar symbol connected especially with Dionysus, Mithras and Osiris.
In the beginning was the Word, the Logos, who is Mercury, and is therefore to be identified with Christ. Both are messengers; their birth mysteries are similar; the pranks of their childhood are similar. In the Vision of the Universal Mercury, Hermes is seen descending upon the sea, which refers to Maria. The Crucifixion represents the caduceus; the two thieves, the two serpents; the cliff in the Vision of the Universal Mercury is Golgotha; Maria is simply Maia with the solar R in her womb.
The controversy about Christ between the synoptics and John was really a contention between the priests of Bacchus, Sol and Osiris, also, perhaps, of Adonis and Attis, on the one hand, and those of Hermes on the other, at that period when initiation all over the world found it necessary, owing to the growth of the Roman empire, and the opening up of means of communication, to replace conflicting polytheisms by a synthetic faith. (This is absolutely new to me, this conception
{720}
of Christ as Mercury.) Some difficulty about the ... (This sentence is now quite unintelligible.)
To continue the identification, compare Christ's descent into hell with the function of Hermes as guide of the dead. Also Hermes leading up Eurydice, and Christ raising up Jairus' daughter. Christ is said to have risen on the third day, because it takes three days for the planet Mercury to become visible after separating from the orb of the sun. (It may be noted here that Mercury and Venus are the planets between us and the sun, as if the Mother and the Son were mediators between us and the Father.)
Note Christ as the Healer, and also his own expression, "The son of Man cometh as a thief in the night"; and also this scripture (Matt. XXIV, 27), "For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be."
Note also Christ's relations with the money changers, his frequent parables, and the fact that his first disciple was a publican.
Note also Mercury as the deliverer of Prometheus.
One half of the fish symbol is also common to Christ as Mercury; fish are sacred to Mercury (owing presumably to their quality of movement). (This I did not know before.) Many of Christ's disciples were fishermen and he was always doing miracles in connexion with fish.
Note also Christ as the mediator: "No man cometh unto the Father but by Me", and Mercury as Chokmah through whom alone we can approach Kether.
The caduceus contains a complete symbol of the Gnosis; the winged sun or phallus represents the joy of life on all planes from the lowest to the highest. The Serpents, besides being active and passive, Horus and Osiris, and all their other well-known attributions are those qualities of Eagle and Lion respectively, of which we know but do not speak. It is the symbol which unites the Microcosm and the Macrocosm, the symbol of the Magical Operation which accomplishes this. The caduceus is the universal solvent. It is quite easy to turn quicksilver into gold on the physical plane, and this will soon be done. New life will flow through the world in consequence. The god now lays his caduceus upon my lips for silence; bidding me only remember that on the following night he is to come in another form.
The temple was then closed."
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"I was just thinking about this thread last night, when I came across this passage in Confessions... kind of a slightly different vision of the Christ, seen from, a more Chokmah-esque point-of-view
"This is really interesting train of thought. It helps reorient our thinking about Christianity as the true mystery religion it is, as opposed to it being an oppressive institution of the last Aeon. Purged of limited political motivations it looks very different.
Along these lines I'm thinking about the eschatological myths and predictions associated with Chritianity—the coming conflagration of the earth by fire. It's not much of a stretch to see the Second Coming as initiated slang for a new dispensation, and the references to fire as pointing directly to the nature of Horus as the lord of force and fire...
In this regard, it could make sense to assert that Thelema is in fact a continuation and fulfillment of the Christian current. There were in fact reformation period ideas about the immanent age of the Holy Spirit. Historically, this would line up very neatly with the Equinox of the Gods.
Love and Will
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I just wanted to append a few short thoughts onto my last post having to to do with the amount of fire symbolism in Christianity.
There is a lot of it, and it is almost all about the future—their future, which is now.
The Holy Spirit's primary attribute is fire! Tongues of fire dancing on the heads of the apostles at the Pentecost! Briahtic consciousness? The ambitions of Thelema of bringing this fire to the average man and woman during this age of the child?
Love and Will
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It seems to me that a great deal of ingenuity and energy was expended to show how Christ fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament, and then introduced a new law. I don't think I am talking out of my butt when I say that Crowley was consciously aware that he was following the same format by delivering a new law that was intended to replace the old Christian paradigm. What is odd is that no one has gone to the trouble of showing how Thelema has fulfilled all the old prophecies of the Christian theology, after a fashion. This would be a very easy, and I would imagine, entertaining thing to do, imho.
Building this bridge might possibly force a reevaluation of ideas central to Christian thought.
Love and Will
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Well, with Christianity, that happened well after the initial events were alleged to have happened. I think there's still time to engage in that sort of thing, have a council of Nicaea, where everyone agrees to specifics on the dogma of Crowleyanity.
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"Well, with Christianity, that happened well after the initial events were alleged to have happened. I think there's still time to engage in that sort of thing, have a council of Nicaea, where everyone agrees to specifics on the dogma of Crowleyanity. "
Hard to say if this would be a good idea in the long run. In the sort run though, it makes me feel all giggly. Someone should start a website called Christians for Crowley, and stock with lots reinterpretations of beloved Biblical passages. The froth and outrage would be worth the price of admission.
There is no need to point out that this gesture would probably be childish, self-serving, unhelpful, and cruel. What would the mercurial Jesus do? Mercury is the prankster after all.
Love and Will