Choosing an order
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93,
I can speak from an insider's perspective
the OTO is NOT a teaching order (as my initiator reminded me at my very first interview). The TOT IS a teaching order. The OTO's purpose has been described as "the gradual revelation of the secret of the ninth degree" -- aside from this somewhat limited description, it is also a great means of meeting others in the Thelemic community.@HWNH said
"I am certain that being a part of a formal order is a very salient tool, especially for someone like me who thrives off of a formal curriculum more so than a self-directed one. "
I would say, based on your quote, that the TOT is closer to fulfilling what you're looking for in terms of a formal curriculum. In the OTO you will find yourself still "self-directed."
93 93/93.
AL H-ShMATh
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Though it means time and travel, I recommend meeting the people in any initiatory order you are interested in joining. In my (admittedly limited) experience, there will come a point during the initiation when you ask yourself if you really want to do this, and the answer depends (at least, it did for me) on whether you trust the people initiating you. You'll only trust them if you know them and have made friends with them.
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Thank you sincerely for all of the very thoughtful responses. Believe me, I am taking it all in, thinking and feeling the situation through. This discussion board has also been immensely helpful in understanding the types of challenges faced by initiates and what I need to think about when the decision comes.
HWNH
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole all of the law.
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As someone who has a problematic relationship with their intuition, my reservation would lie in whether I'm reading the people rightly or wrongly; perhaps it's just a test (though obviously if you feel freaked out in their presence, that can't be good!).
I think a difficulty in choosing an order is also whether you'll take to their rites after you go through them, after the fact; sometime you may not realize the way they operate until after you're inducted.
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@Escarabaj said
"I think a difficulty in choosing an order is also whether you'll take to their rites after you go through them, after the fact; sometime you may not realize the way they operate until after you're inducted."
Inquire what public rites they offer that you might attend, and ask whether these public rites are representative of the style and tone of their private rites.
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I don't know how the OTO rolls but if you want a formal curriculum and you want to be part of a working order then TOT may be where you want to direct your attention.
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HWNH,
I find myself in a similar situation in Georgia. The difference, however, is that I have Dove and Serpent Oasis (OTO) only about 20 min from me. Whereas, TOT is all the way up in New York. Understand that I would take TOT over OTO any day simply because the structure, and what it represents is very appealing to me (like others, I recommend finding out what each stand for and how they work to see which you would prefer). After doing some research, it appears as if TOT would require quite a bit of physical attendance. This would be a huge problem for me since I'm so far away, and it's unrealistic for me to move any time soon. For these reasons, I have actually given OTO a little more thought. Some of the most consistent advice I've seen Jim give is "seek out a teacher." Since the Oasis is the only geographically realistic option, I can choose OTO or to go it alone. And while the OTO may not provide a teacher, the sense of community would be a tremendous help to me since I live somewhere where there's a church every 1.2 miles and people standing on the side of the road with signs that say "Jesus Loves You." Just wanted to let you know that I really believe there are a lot of people out there that are in the similar situation as us. Unfortunately, the most common response I've seen to our problem has been "move to California."
-ANEA
"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."EDIT: For research on the OTO, I would highly recommend reading Liber XV since it is such a key part of their order. I have done some reading on William Blake Lodge (the OTO lodge in Maryland), and they regularly hold a public gnostic mass. All you would have to do is send an e-mail to the contact on their lodge page, and that would give you a public ritual you could attend. It also looks like they regularly update their calendar too! Hope this helps
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@ANEA said
"Just wanted to let you know that I really believe there are a lot of people out there that are in the similar situation as us. Unfortunately, the most common response I've seen to our problem has been "move to California.""
Oh, I know there are a lot of people out there in this situation! And we'd be happy to start a new group down there. There are two different models on how to do this.
One model - which we do not use, but some other groups do - is to authorize people who have never been initiated to start up a group. This could be done, for example, by doing a mass-initiation in the locale to get several people admitted at once. The problem this creates is that there is nobody in that group that actually knows anything about how to proceed: as much of the training comes from long experience being within a Temple as from what is written down on paper.
Another model - which we do employ - is to wait until one or more fairly advanced members exist in a geograpjhic area. This can be done either by members moving from elsewhere, or from at least one person sacrificing (in the real meaning of 'sacrifice') several years to pursue their membership the hard way. Yes, this involves considerable travel and less than ideal conditions. When at least one fairly advanced member exists in an area, they can begin a study group to test the waters of local interest and draw together a group of people that might be willing to work together. This can create a working foundation for one of those mass-initiation visits.
As you can see, each approach has difficulties.
A third approach, which draws on elements of both of the above, is that people can establish an Aspirants to Light lodge (<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.aspirantstolight.org">www.aspirantstolight.org</a><!-- w -->). Admission criteria are much lighter, travel required is much reduced, and we are willing to take a chance on people much sooner. This would give a working ceremonial group focussing on fellowship and teaching core fundamentals, which can serve people on its own and/or be the foundation of building a Temple of Thelema structure later on. The initial commitment would be for at least one person to make enough trips to California to pass through three degrees over the period of a couple of years (which also gives us the chance to get to know them - and vice versa) - and to find at least two others (total of three people minimum) who could come here for IĀ° admission. That would give a core sufficient to get a lodge started in their area.
I personally think that Aspirants to Light is the most flexible and promising advance to spreading this work more extensively, and is significantly under-utilized. (People utterly love the rituals.)
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Thanks Jim,
I was beginning to think that all of my posts weren't showing up or something
That is an interesting recommendation. Obviously, the A.'.A.'. doesn't require a whole lot of physical attendance either, however, that order you linked looks like they would be more apt to dealing with newbies like me than the A.'.A.'. would. According to their FAQ it looks like the meetings are once a month? Indeed, that would be more doable. It's still a pretty hardcore trek from GA to CA, but maybe after I finish my bachelors, I could look into something like that! Thanks again.
-ANEA
"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." -
A.L. meetings are once a month. Attendance isn't required except by officers. It only takes three officers to do the ritual and run a lodge.
Someone from a great distance wouldn't be expected to appear in person except for the three occassions of their own degree steps, and, of course, whenever else they could. We would, of course, stay in touch in between
Just so you know (since the web site doesn't say), A.L. was created by Anna-Kria King and myself (as private property not directly connected to any Order) to provide both entry-level access to ceremony and teaching, as well as provide a place for people at all levels to meet in fellowship.
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Very cool!
I assumed you were one of the two "grand masters" that founded the order after you said "we" would stay in touch. I am definitely interested, but I think it would be appropriate to talk a little before I decide to apply to AL. I have probably a million questions I could ask you, however, I don't feel it's appropriate to address any of them in this thread since I don't want to derail the topic. Feel free to PM me or send me an e-mail so we can talk further (I check both almost every day). At your convenience, hope to hear from you.
Also, HWNH, I would recommend you take a look at the site Jim linked too. It may be something that would work for you as well.
-ANEA
"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." -
On <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.AspirantstoLight.org">www.AspirantstoLight.org</a><!-- w -->, click the Contacts link at the top, and click the email link for the Los Angeles lodge. That's probably the best way to carry on a conversation.
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Glad to see the Aspirants To Light is active. I saw the web page before, but didn't know if it was still an active order.
From reading thusfar it seems that this may be a good entry point for a beginner (like myself) to understand the dynamics of a lodge system before committing to a group that requires more time in attendance like possibly the TOT. One of my obstacles, even living so close, is that I take care of son till after 7pm when my wife gets home. Therefore, I've feel that out of respect to a group or teacher that I should wait till I can dedicate more time and not be a let down. However, once a month can be planned out and I can find a way of scheduling that consistently most likley. I will read up a bit more on it - thanks.
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Yes, a second thank you for sharing this avenue. Would this also be a good direction for eventually establishing a College of Thelema study group in the area?
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"Yes, a second thank you for sharing this avenue. Would this also be a good direction for eventually establishing a College of Thelema study group in the area?"
Yes.
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Thanks!
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@Jim Eshelman said
"On www.AspirantstoLight.org, click the Contacts link at the top, and click the email link for the Los Angeles lodge. That's probably the best way to carry on a conversation."
Done! You should be recieving my life story via e-mail soon, if you haven't already.
I must add... For us non-californians, this thread has been like christmas morning, and we got our red ryder we've been wanting!
-ANEA
"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."PS. Don't let geography fool you, I'm a californian at heart. :3
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"You'll shoot your eye out!" Sorry, couldn't resist