Crowley- Violator of others' Wills?
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@Froclown said
"What I want to see.
Everywhere you see a sign or a flag or a banner today, that has a cross on it, I want to see a Hexagram or an OTO Lamen. "
As a reminder: This forum has nothing to do with O.T.O. (except that some forum members happen also to be O.T.O. members.) Please do not use this forum to propagandize for a separate, unrelated organization. (First advisory.)
If you want to see a hexagram everyplace you go, you might move to Israel - you could have that now.
"I want to see people get up at dawn to do morning Rest instead of Tai-chi in Tienamin square."
Tai-chi is healthier
(Besides, it's not inherently un-Thelemic. Also besides: One could do both.) -
All Thelemic groups and organisations are part of one movement.
Thus if you are Thelemic, you must support all groups that promote that agenda.
Maybe you don't agree on all points. But advancement of the ideals can not afford such pointless division.
I see no reason for all this concern with things like who owns copywrites to books available for free to anyone on the internet or who is the legit successor of this or that, etc.
The idea is to set up Thelema under whatever banner the more the better, as instutions that put into practice the philosophy and practical advice as written in Crowley's essay "The method of Thelema"
Which is to say to organise all world leaders in academic fields to word out the application of Thelema to social organisation, and to get all leading professionals of economic fields to understand and accept the law and work out how to re-structure their businesses to express the "Law of fitness" in every aspect of the business. Another issue must be the propaganda of the media needs to be used to supposed Thelemic principles and ideals, in films, music and commercials.
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@Froclown said
"All Thelemic groups and organisations are part of one movement."
That, of course, wouldn't be yours to decide - but would fall to the caretakers of the respective "groups and organizations."
You write as if Thelema itself were the end. It's not. It's the means. It's a passing phase that will last a few thousand years at most. We adopt it for far more ancient ends, for one reason: It's the tool that works at the moment.
"Thus if you are Thelemic, you must support all groups that promote that agenda."
I won't even go into the issue of what "agenda" you think "all Thelemic groups and organisations" share. I assure you that they do not all have the same agenda at all.
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That agenda is the great work.
Ie as put forth in the Postcard to probationers, that of cultivating Geniuses or "Christs" ie superior examples of humanity, via teaching practices than tend to cultivate such, societies that allow for and encourage such practices, develop a technology of improving upon such practices and social organisations, eliminate the slave idea that resents superior power, eliminate the fear of and tendency to make a fetish of death, remove the notion of vicarious and intercessory atonement and the notion of original sin, and denounce gossip via teaching of Yama and Niyama, the promote courage, learning by personal experience and removal of taboos on self exploration, and instilling a very strong adherence to and respect for the sceptical methods of science in all things especially subjecting all personal feelings, experiences and revelations to strong controlled scrutiny. for starters.
As you yourself so adeptly pointed out, no individual to complete unto themselves, and thus the cultivation of any individual genius requires that the interaction between community members be mutually supportive, in that effort. Thus the cultivation of particular genius is totally enmeshed with the weaving of a social order which supports mutually the cultivation of each other's function and purpose, thus a social order where all individuals are contributing their own unique WILL in such away that it facilitates the growth and efficiency of the functions of others. That over time there is less and less friction, and each individual Will becomes less restricted. Thus everyone rather than frustrating each other works to compliment each other's functions. In the same way as I explained before, that one sets up a permaculture system so that each plant's natural qualities add to the system and contribute something that another plant uses, and because of the way they are arranged, competition for resources is replaced by co-operation with each-other's natural aims.
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@Froclown said
"That agenda is the great work."
You are simply showing your ignorance of the organizations of which you speak so broadly. The Greak Work in the sense that you describe it (and, for that matter, in any common or shared sense) is not the goal of the diverse range of organizations to which you referred in general.
"Postcards to Probationers" is specifically an A.'.A.'. reference, and it isn't even particularly Thelemic. It stems from the early A.'.A.'. period when Crowley was still actively resisting Liber Legis, and the founders were representing A.'.A.'. purely in terms of Scientific Illuminism.
I agree with many of the goals you mention in this particular post. But that's a digression. The immediate topic dealt with the illusion that any organization representing itself as Thelemic has the same agenda as all the others.
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Yes.
it's A.'.A.'.
But O.T.O is a chartered external school of the A.'.A.'. dedicated to the same great work. also it was A.'.A.'. that gave the book of the law to Crowley and it is presumably the secret chiefs of the A.'.A.'. (The Great white brotherhood) who designate the formula of the Aeon, as a means to purge the activity of the black school's corruption of the last formula which the A.'.A.'. had given to man, that of INRI, IAO, the death rebirth rite.So then every True Thelemic order is working directly or indirectly for the Goals of the A.'.A.'. which is the White school of magick, against the black school of degeneration. and the white school or A.'.A.'. or secret chiefs or clouded sanctuary, or the a million other names. Is the transcendent tradition that Evola and Geunon trace back to Mythical hyperborea via the indo-aryans, that Blavatski locates as the home of the secret chiefs in Tibet, that others have called Thule or Atlantis or Mu, or the norse call it Aesgaard, the Japanese the lineage of the sun goddess. Etc.
The Tradition of solar-phallic principle or white school of magick, which all orders that claim to be Thelemic are directly or indirectly working to establish the ideals of that inner school, via encoding them into exoteric rites, dogmas, practices etc. that can be understood and carried out by those of various levels of initiation, with some external rituals aimed at the mundane to align their practices, while others seek to initiate the understanding to deeper levels, to reveal the inner truth.
As it was stated in the Cloud upon the sanctuary, there are prophets and priests. The priests administer the rites and rituals to the mundane people, the prophets come once in a while when the rights are no longer effective and have become corrupt to purge them and restore the link to the inner tradition, via establishing a new mode or formula of expression, thus all the rights must be re-written. Churches and organisations that can be updated will be, others which are too far corrupt will be destroyed or left to rot away.
Thus Crowley the Prophet, the spokesman for the Great white brotherhood of the inner order, wrote new rituals and decried against the degeneration of the old formula, and delivered the outline of the new formula to achieve the Great work of linking to the inner order and manifesting it's white school principles in the world. The new formula is meant to be such that the black school can not as easily corrupt it, and it helps to unite the white and yellow schools. Thus all outer orders that accept the book of the law are aligned to the same great work as the vehicles of the inner school, the A.'.A.'.
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Weekend is over. Back to work in the morning. No more time to joust with someone who simply doesn't know what he's talking about.
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I have nothing to do with the higher management in O.T.O.
When I refer to O.T.O I am referring to the blue equinox model and the ideal of a thelemic based community or abby as portrayed in Diary and Moonchild. As a social community, of all thelemites that as in a monastary or an intentional community, to teach and live as Thelemits. Who have good repoir with the "trogs" outside their community, and even a reputation of being happier, healthier, possessing more wisdom, being more friendly and helpful, hard working and all around superior individuals due to their teachings and life style, such that people will be drawn to accept the book of the law and the Thelemic life style. Which will slowly replace the whole trog world.
Not necessarily any manifestation of the O.T.O. as it currently stands.
It may also be on order that does not use the initials O.T.O.
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@Froclown said
"I have nothing to do with the higher management in O.T.O.
When I refer to O.T.O I am referring to the blue equinox model and the ideal of a thelemic based community or abby as portrayed in Diary and Moonchild. As a social community, of all thelemites that as in a monastary or an intentional community, to teach and live as Thelemits. Who have good repoir with the "trogs" outside their community, and even a reputation of being happier, healthier, possessing more wisdom, being more friendly and helpful, hard working and all around superior individuals due to their teachings and life style, such that people will be drawn to accept the book of the law and the Thelemic life style. Which will slowly replace the whole trog world.
Not necessarily any manifestation of the O.T.O. as it currently stands.
It may also be on order that does not use the initials O.T.O."
Interesting. I find your model of socially acceptable displays out dated. Old Aeon perhaps. "Oh they are such nice boys, those well dressed Beatles." Yeah, I guess it got them started but it was the trouble of getting arrested for marijuana and rumors of LSD that got the world interested in what they really had to say.
but then again, I'm certainly no fan of the O.T.O.
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As a member of OTO I feel I should probably defend it somewhat, I don't know what the situation is in the states, nor in the higher echelons of the Order.
I hear a lot of grumbling about the OTO monopolising the Crowley estate, but lets face it, it had to go somewhere, and to my mind that is preferable to having it monopolised by Marcelo Motta and the more fundamentalist reaches of the Thelemic community. (I do think that Motta produced some good work, I particularly liked his commentaries on Liber LXV, but he was a Wacko).That's not to say that some members of the Order havent sometimes behaved in ways that are less than Thelemic, I have seen it with my own eyes on occasion, there is sometimes a certain amount of bickering; but if you put that many ego's in a room it's bound to happen.
The reason I remain in the Order is because for the most part the Brethren have treated me well, I have learned a lot, made a lot of friends, and seen/done things, and learned things about myself in the process that I might not have done in a thousand years without the OTO.
But yes, like in any other group, there are a few assholes.
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@Froclown said
"When I refer to O.T.O I am referring to the blue equinox model and the ideal"
You might advantageously call this "the O.T.O. model" or "a system such as Crowley envisioned for O.T.O."
O.T.O. is a specific organization in exactly the same sense that General Motors is a specific organization.
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@Froclown said
"right and that is why Joseph Smith has a whole army of Mormons in Utah and all oven the world even one running for president and people who read Joseph Campbell and sit around blissfully shoving their fingers into their ears, have nothing to show for it, and have never been considered for president of anything."
Yeah, I contemplate my navel, or more precisely I try very hard to follow my inner promptings as this is the best I can do in terms of understanding and following my true will. You have gone out of your way to explain how the true will is the key to everything, but when I invoke it, you shit on it—very telling.
You also, obviously think the Mormons are the model of success, another point on which we disagree.
@Froclown said
"If thelemites sit around following their bliss, and not taking effective actions we will just fade away or remain a small fringe group. The Catholic church did not rise to power by Christians sitting on their thumbs and blissing out. Alexander did not spread his ideals by sitting at home in the dark, he went out and conquered the world and set his ideals into action, by the way he ruled the nations."
I'm not writing for you, or in response to you anymore. I just want to add for anyone else reading this thread my opinion.
I really don't see why we need to copy the past, which can only result in our becomming a mindless organization that will no doubt specialize in the subjugation of other peoples wills along the same lines as the examples given by Froclown above have all done. The whole idea of Thelema is against that, imo. Luckily, I don't think Thelema is a neo-fascist cause, or I might despair that people like Froclown will actually convince others they need to become militant pricks.
I'm rereading Memories Dream Reflections, Jung's autobiography. You can get it on kindle now—my original copy disappeared many years ago. I am struck again by his opening remarks to the effect that his inner word and those experiences are more real, more significant, and more meaningful than any exterior accomplishments of his. And this is from a man who, apart from Freud, was the most influential practicing psychologist of the last two hundred years, changing the way the entire western world views itself. Pretty impressive for someone who personally didn't feel his beliefs were things other had to accept.
I think it is a serious mistake to compete with the success of others, especially if those others are the Catholic church, among others. Rather, we should compete with the attitudes of those people who we truly admire. I know this is a difficult concept for Froclown. His only response to this argument is a kind of frothing at the mouth and a reiteration of old notions of empire and control that goes back to Plato and his fear of artists. I am of the opinion that Thelema is about moving beyond that sort of behavior, thank god. I would never be part of something that still thought controlling the media with the intention of telling people what to think was a good idea.
Either this freedom has the power to win hearts and minds of its own accord or Thelema is truly a religion only for the few, I'm willing to accept either as long as it does not mean wearing the uniform and chanting the mindless slogans of the believer.
Love and Will
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@RobertAllen said
"I think it is a serious mistake to compete with the success of others [...]. Rather, we should compete with the attitudes of those people who we truly admire."
Brilliant!
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You do know the the first thing Crowley did at the abbey was, Ban all newspapers, Ie control the media.
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Unlike a fascist state though, one was perfectly free to leave the Abbey of Thelema should they wish to. Even if a fascist state allowed it, it's much less convenient to relocate from one's nation of citizenship, than it is to relocate from a house.
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and the Beatles like the hippies did NOTHING Thelemic, the spread the liberal nihlist doctrines that Nietzsche spoke out against the slave ideals of the "Last Man", even though Crowley promoted drug use, this was his greatest mistake, he lived at a time when drugs were not understood, and while sure one can test one's metal by using a drug, understanding it's effects on one's mind, finding it is actually harmful to one's health and well being, and ending the practice, the beatles and other hippies taught that drug use was in itself liberating making you a better person because you were a "degenerate elitist", not like those square who actually have their heads on straight. Further they followed that nut case the Maharishi with his bullshit that was co-opted later by the Natural law party and such utter crap as "What the bleep do we know". They were in the same category as these members of Theosophy that set up Krishnamurti as their prophet, the Maharishi was the same sort of "Negroid messiah" and not at all a model one should hold up as Thelemic.
Thelema is about virtue, values of strength and honour, like that of Aristotle, to discover which of the types of men you are and to live that type of life appropriate to the which star you are, not to allow yourself total liscence to do anything and everything to excess and fall into degenerate addictions, poor health, decadence and cut one self off from reality testing under the notion, "I believe whatever I WILL to"
Life is not focused on self and stirring up feelings in yourself, it is to go forth and manifest in the world and to actual fulfil your function, the wind blows, the fire burns, the dog barks, the woods man cuts, the painter paints, the states man directs, and the children play. There is a place for everything and each thing is happiest when it is acting according to it's function and in it's proper place, where it mutually supports and is supported by others who are acting in their proper place. That is True Liberty.
When you fall into decadence and never discern your true function and choose to drink and be merry rather than to fulfil it, when you act like the grasshopper who parties all summer, come winter you will die in the cold, and the hard working ants, with their caste system who know their function and have dedication, store up food all summer and survive the winter. The Grasshopper people like Christians and liberals think not for the morrow, and feel that others, the rich or the government will reward their decadence with charity when they fall on hard times. That slave morality is everything thelema is against. The Beatles were champions of that.
"Professional soldiers who dare not fight, but play"
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I think you should do a comic book, with the Beatles as Black Brothers, thwarting the good cause of a proto-fascist "thelemic" ubermenschen hierarchy caste-based utopia. I would get stoned and watch the animated adaptation.
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ChoRingozon....
How did the Fab Four (a band I was never that keen on...) get into this? As a point of fact, let's note that except for George, they all renounced the Maharishi after their visit to Rishikesh.
Let it be that White Album, bound and loathing
So with thy all, thou hast no right but to listen to the Zep;
For pure Jimmy, unuassuaged of minor chords, delivered from the lust of Top 20 hits,
Is every way perfect.EM
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I used the Beatles as an example of appearance of conventionalism, as a metaphor of change and attraction. But sure, if y'all can't get on the metaphor train, I can dig it.
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Takamba, 93,
Thinking back on it, the Beatles were key in the "second wave" of what burst out in late 1966/early 1967, and their conversion or near-conversion to eastern Mysticism did legitimize the counter-cultural explosion for some people. In doing so, they also possibly wrecked it. Social historians will chew over that for decades, depending where they are on the approve/disapprove spectrum in regards to it all. But ripples from that wave kept rolling for a few years before ebbing and leaving those who had truly tuned in and dropped out of the norm to gel things as they could, and explore further.
Anything that called or calls people to question their own mental and social status quo serves a purpose. The Aeon sometimes advances in leaps, and at times bit by bit, person by person, meme by meme.
93 93/93,
Edward