A Question, maybe a debate, maybe offensive to people.
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The reason I am in the OTO is because I share a Ceremonial Magic / Hermetic practice and the folks are friendly. I don't care for rebellion. I prefer tradition to liberation. My favorite clothes are pink gingham shirts, knockoff American Eagle shirts, and chinos shorts, and I do not listen to gothic / alterno-rock. What I love about Thelema is the Masonic, Hermetic, Kabbalistic, and Rosicrucian traditions blended with openmindedness.
I do not believe Crowley to be a prophet the way Moses was a prophet. I do not believe that he was an avatar of anyone, either. He was sharper than the average Joe, but so was Mathers. He was an important Neo-Pagan Elder like Gerald Gardner or Alex Sanders. I find the Gnostic Mass, Star Sapphire, and Liber 65 to be true classics. But I also feel that he may have stolen 777 from Mathers. Nor do I feel that we are literally in a new aeon, because if we did, it would've started in the 17th century with the Enlightenment. You'll find the same theological diversity in any church, because people go to church to be with the people they love, not always because they agree with the preacher / founder 100%. I want you guys to challenge me, and to prove to me that Crowley is a prophet on the level of Moses, rather than on the level of Jacques De Molay or another Elder or Saint. I do get that Crowley is important. But I'm getting a lot of sh*t for challenging this assumption. Isn't this about certainty, not faith? Everyone has a different reason to join the order. People think I'm Christian or Buddhist, and I do not personally identify with staunch individualism or anything like that. I like to be in an order because I am an organization woman. I accept no prophets as my personal saviors. I believe that our relationship to God is moderated by the saints and the sacred relationships of man, family, nature, tribe, good works, ancestors, and natural law. Sexual perversion is not my thing, it is merely a phenomenon that results from psychological issues. "Tantric sex" is only one marginal aspect of our relationship to God, I personally prefer other types of prayer. To me, Thelema is one of many methods to discover your purpose in life through spiritual work with the Holy Guardian Angel. It is not a moral law or widespread religion, but an esoteric path like Zen. I also feel that Crowley's system is only one form that 'Thelemic religion' takes. And I feel that the AMORC and Samael Aun Weor organizations are straight up New Age cornball. .... Just my $.02 about my position as a Thelemite. -
Doesn't seem offensive to me
Skepticism is important! Although I doubt that anyone will "prove" to you that Crowley is whatever you are asking.You must figure that out for yourself. No one can "prove" it to you.
Why do I think Crowley was a prophet?
As far as I can tell, The Book of the Law is accurate and sublime beyond anything that his little human brain could've come up with. It's impact within my psyche is so deep, profound, and beautiful that it appears to me as nothing less than natural law. Thus I attribute its ultimate authorship to Something else, though the actual throat (or rather pen) that it was heard through was Crowley's.
Anything else that he wrote that wasn't a "received" text is pretty much just standard occult fare - very high-level, well-researched, and incredibly useful occult fare, but nothing above the level of what I think humans could produce without tapping into a Spiritual source beyond their humanity. There is a huge difference between Liber Legis and other random pieces of writing of Crowley's, including his poetry.
His behavior as a person and his own sexual preferences have little or nothing to do with Thelema itself, and are ultimately irrelevant. Crowley once stated: "Every one should discover, by experience of every kind, the extent and intention of his own sexual Universe. He must be taught that all roads are equally royal, and that the only question for him is ‘Which road is mine?'"
Crowley never intended that his sexual habits be imitated or even liked.
Similarly, someone I respect very much once said something along the lines of "I don't usually contemplate Thomas Edison's character whenever I turn on a lightbulb - it just works, and that's all that matters to me."
These are my 2 cents.
93, 93/93.
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93 Lykathea!
Your comments about your treatment within the Order (OTO) reminded me of that scene of the sermon "The life of Brian"
Brian: "You are all individuals!"
Voice at back: "I'm not!"
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQqq3e03EBQI can't help but think that people who think that Thelema is some sort of Gothic pantomime religion have really got the wrong end of the stick.
True, if you want to dress like that and listen to alt-rock music, then fine, do it.
If you want to wear a gingham dress and have a traditional outlook on life, that's fine too, if it be your Will.I am myself a member of OTO in England, and here the brethren are very diverse, there are those who I would call goths, there are also many others, including myself, that you would never guess were Thelemites until you took a look at their bookshelves.
As to whether A.C. was a prophet? Well; I'm sure Moses and Abraham were humans with human flaws too, and Jesus had his bit on the side I'm sure, these things get airbrushed out of history; but their words still echo down the centuries; only time will tell if 666's words echo as long or as loud.
In the final analysis, what matters is, Thelema as a movement speaks to you enough for you to join the OTO and become more deeply involved with it, so go with it, enjoy it and see where it takes you, life is far too short to worry about what others might think, there is no Law beyond do what thou wilt.
93 93/93
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@Lykathea said
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I want you guys to challenge me, and to prove to me that Crowley is a prophet on the level of Moses, "I accept your challenge, but first you must prove to me that Moses ever existed at all apart from being a fictional character in a book of ancient folktales.
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Read the cloud upon the sanctuary, in it you see the sort of prophet crowley was.
A priest administers the rituals as there are to the people, and social political order derivea from the occult valuea and meaning expressed to the unconscious via those rituals. When the times changes and the rituals no longer serve to express the underlying values and ideals of the secret inner ordee or tradition of the white school or the secret sanctuary of the true master, or secret chiefs or high atlanteans, whatever you want to call it. When the times chang the rituals wear out and prophets appear to produce new rituals and a new formula by which to relatevia symnols and dramantic rites the foundation of social order to the base masses who dont have minds to grasp the subtelty of the true values and tradition directly.
Crolwey claimed he waw such a prophet and his task was to create a new way to link man to the traditional transcented. To purge the old rituals, create new ones, establish new types of metaphysics, ontology, ethics and social order based on this, that when the old religiouns are purged by war and fire, the new earth will have begin a whole new phase of spiritual order. The god of chrstianity is dead, a new god takes the throne, and all the values of the chrisitan are replaced with new values, warrior codes of honor, and rites of blood and fire unto Ra-Hoor-khuit replace the gental rites of the peaceful little chrisitian lambs that go merrily to their own slaughter at the cross, beying for a master to take care of their needs. The ideal christian is a sheep, the ideal thelemite is a lion of light and a sepent of wisdom. Proud, self driven, fierce, makes his own law by the force of his might. Does not bend the knee to beg to be treated right, for mercy. "Strikes out without pity or quarter" the enlightenment was just more advanced from of the sheepy religious idea, it was deviation from tradition, it was rutals wearing out. Liberty, equality, fraternity is as absurd as "in god we trust", and thelema is none of that.
In short thelema in the philosophy of Nietzsche packaged with theological stories, poems, rituals, and a system of social hiegrarchy and order. It is the makings for a new world a better world, a nietzschean world, that creates the conditions which form the higher man, and even prepares the way for ubermenschen.
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@Aleister Crowley said
"This “God,” Horus, has a technical title: Heru-Ra-Ha, a combination of twin gods, Ra-Hoor-Khuit and Hoor-Paar-Kraat. The meaning of this doctrine must be studied in Magick. (He is symbolized as a Hawk-Headed God enthroned.)
He rules the present period of 2,000 years, beginning in 1904. Everywhere his government is taking root. Observe for yourselves the decay of the sense of sin, the growth of innocence and irresponsibility, the strange modifications of the reproductive instinct with a tendency to become bisexual or epicene, the childlike confidence in progress combined with nightmare fear of catastrophe, against which we are yet half unwilling to take precautions.
Consider the outcrop of dictatorships, only possible when moral growth is in its earliest stages, and the prevalence of infantile cults like Communism, Fascism, Pacifism, Health Crazes, Occultism in nearly all its forms, religions sentimentalised to the point of practical extinction.
Consider the popularity of the cinema, the wireless, the football pools and guessing competitions, all devices for soothing fractious infants, no seed of purpose in them.
Consider sport, the babyish enthusiasms and rages which it excites, whole nations disturbed by disputes between boys.
Consider war, the atrocities which occur daily and leave us unmoved and hardly worried.
We are children.
How this new Aeon of Horus will develop, how the Child will grow up, these are for us to determine, growing up ourselves in the way of the Law of Thelema under the enlightened guidance of the Master Therion."He had me right about there.
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@Lykathea said
"The reason I am in the OTO is because I share a Ceremonial Magic / Hermetic practice and the folks are friendly. I don't care for rebellion. I prefer tradition to liberation. My favorite clothes are pink gingham shirts, knockoff American Eagle shirts, and chinos shorts, and I do not listen to gothic / alterno-rock. What I love about Thelema is the Masonic, Hermetic, Kabbalistic, and Rosicrucian traditions blended with openmindedness."
Based on my politics I am a hippie it seems, though I would counter that this is just a name someone might use to label me who wanted to score a cheap shot in an argument; I have shaved my head for more than thirty years, and my favorite music is mostly the later day rock of people like PJ Harvey and Portes Head. People who know me would not describe me as touchy-feely or sentimental in any way shape or form. Regardless, I'm what is generally understood to be a progressive, a liberal, even a socialist by some reckonings, having studied Aesthetics with ex-Black Panther apologist Angela Davis when I was student at the Art Institute. I admire the great movements of activism in American and world history, like the rise of the unions. These movement and these people are tough as nails, and you belittle them at your own risk.
And you know what, none of this has anything to do with Thelema, imho. It has about as much to do with it as your profile, or the politics of someone else, which just might be ultra-conservative or neo-fascist. Of course, reactionary-conservative types are wrong and fvcked up, but that's just my political orientation talking, and still has nothing to do with Thelema!
The only tie in I can make between a persons political position and Thelema is that people are intrinsically free to be fvcked up. That's worth repeating: It's Thelemic to respect a person's right to be fvcked up. I would expect the same level of respect on their part, but that may be asking too much.
@Lykathea said
"To me, Thelema is one of many methods to discover your purpose in life through spiritual work with the Holy Guardian Angel. It is not a moral law or widespread religion, but an esoteric path like Zen. I also feel that Crowley's system is only one form that 'Thelemic religion' takes. And I feel that the AMORC and Samael Aun Weor organizations are straight up New Age cornball. "
Yeah, and why not. I think we would get along fine. If you are ever in my neck of the woods I would buy you a drink and take a genuine interest in the quality of your life.
One thing I feel almost certain Crowley would agree with is the need for you, and anyone, to fulfill your responsibility to yourself first, before jumping through any other hoop. Adopting the point of view of anyone else is simply moving away from that bright center that is who you really are, is not shared by anyone else, and which is also is the only authority acknowledged by Thelema, or should be.
Love and Will
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Thank you guys! I guess the idea of prophetness is a personal one - that a prophet may speak to one person or another. And yes, time will definitely tell especially considering that it took a couple hundred years for Mohammed etc.'s words to resonate.
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Robert, thanks.
Lykathea, I was interested in Thelema for a while, but have now diminished that, though I know there's a reason for me studying it and that I should do it still. I have found my religious belief, which I will not put up here, in its all-embracingness it is much like Thelema, although my reason has put one above another. My reason being here, althoug I haven't been active for awhile, is that I feel I still have to be here.
We can argue alot about what is right and what is wrong, but I'm the type of guy who likes to be very open towards everything. I think people should do that more.